Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
|
2018/06/22 02:04:08
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
I was thinking that you could give them a re-roll on the basis that the their gunner and loaders are the best of the best lol Its contrived but I can't think of a way of making them good but not OP for the cost.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 02:18:24
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
|
Flat damage value and ability to pick out characters would go a long way. Also giving them an ability to 'hunker down' and act as an ambusher rather than a line tank would be a good add.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 02:27:28
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Norn Queen
|
Flat 3 damage and re-roll hits against Vehicles and Monsters
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 03:56:32
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
Flat 3 damage would make them worse, the D6 damage is the only reason you'd take them, the other variants would out perform them, most are d3 damage but they have multiple shots.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 04:24:54
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Flat 6 damage is more like it for a single shot weapon.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 04:29:12
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
Canada,eh
|
They should be:
- Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures.
- 3+D3 Damage.
|
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 04:32:47
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
Gibblets wrote:They should be:
- Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures.
- 3+D3 Damage.
That's more like it.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 06:29:14
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
That is still not quite good enough, math vs T8 3+ (averages):
Battlecannon: (7/2) shots -> (7/4) hits -> (7/8) wounds -> (7/12) failed armor saves -> (21/18) damage
Vanquisher Cannon (new): 1 shots -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) failed armor saves -> (25/18) damage
That is 2/9 of a damage difference, for a cannon that costs more points and has far less use against anything that isn't a monsterous creature or vehicle. People would still auto-take the battle cannon. The fact is the thing that hurts the vanquisher cannon the most is the ONE shot, it is absolutely painful and really hurts its numbers. If we absolutely have to keep the number of shots at one, then this would be a better profile:
-Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures
-3d3 Damage
This would make the Vanquisher Cannon roughly 50% more efficient on average than the battle cannon at damaging vehicles and monstrous creatures, whilst still keeping it useless vs practically everything else as it should be, which I think is a pretty good tradeoff. I'd also drop its points cost down to the same as the battle cannon (-3 points). Even then it STILL may need more buffs after some testing, but I think that is a good starting point. There is an issue with the large disparity in outcomes due to small sample size. More than half of the time you are doing absolutely no damage at all with the vanquisher cannon because of the one shot, and it only averages out because when it does hit it hits hard, whereas you are almost always doing some damage with the Battle Cannon and the expected outcomes are weighted more toward the average.
A far better solution would be to give it 1d3 shots, it makes the math way better and you don't have to overcompensate and give it a crapton of damage to skew the average higher and make the numbers line up.
|
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 13:38:50
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 06:44:24
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Yeah. The way 8th ed works more shots is often more than compensating for worse S/AP/damage. Then when you factor in that more shots makes you generally more flexible the less flexible weapon needs to be REALLY good.
How much you want to game things and how much you want to make it sense? Reroll to hit vs vehicles/monsters would make it pretty darn awesome for the role especially with buffed damage but not sure how much sense that really makes. That weapon isn't likely any more accurate against those so reroll to wound makes more sense but is less of a help in area it needs less of a help.
|
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
|
|
|
2018/06/22 13:55:08
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
w1zard wrote:
That is still not quite good enough, math vs T8 3+ (averages):
Battlecannon: (7/2) shots -> (7/4) hits -> (7/8) wounds -> (7/12) failed armor saves -> (21/18) damage
Vanquisher Cannon (new): 1 shots -> (1/2) hits -> (1/3) wounds -> (5/18) failed armor saves -> (25/18) damage
That is 2/9 of a damage difference, for a cannon that costs more points and has far less use against anything that isn't a monsterous creature or vehicle. People would still auto-take the battle cannon. The fact is the thing that hurts the vanquisher cannon the most is the ONE shot, it is absolutely painful and really hurts its numbers. If we absolutely have to keep the number of shots at one, then this would be a better profile:
-Re-roll wounds vs Vehicles + Monsterous Creatures
-3d3 Damage
This would make the Vanquisher Cannon roughly 50% more efficient on average than the battle cannon at damaging vehicles and monstrous creatures, whilst still keeping it useless vs practically everything else as it should be, which I think is a pretty good tradeoff. I'd also drop its points cost down to the same as the battle cannon (-3 points). Even then it STILL may need more buffs after some testing, but I think that is a good starting point. There is an issue with the large disparity in outcomes due to small sample size. More than half of the time you are doing absolutely no damage at all with the vanquisher cannon because of the one shot, and it only averages out because when it does hit it hits hard, whereas you are almost always doing some damage with the Battle Cannon and the expected outcomes are weighted more toward the average.
A far better solution would be to give it 1d3 shots, it makes the math way better and you don't have to overcompensate and give it a crapton of damage to skew the average higher and make the numbers line up.
I could live with that but I think 2 shots is more realistic.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 14:08:53
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Vut thats really 4 shots actually as Astra Militarum tanks get to double shoot for free anyways without BS penalty.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 14:58:17
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
Ice_can wrote:Vut thats really 4 shots actually as Astra Militarum tanks get to double shoot for free anyways without BS penalty.
Not for free you need to take a Co-axial.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 15:05:28
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Um all russ have this double shoot if move max half. No coax required
|
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
|
|
|
2018/06/22 15:11:29
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Legendary Dogfighter
|
I see people are mixing up Co-axial with a Spotting rifle/ranging gun
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 15:21:49
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
tneva82 wrote:Um all russ have this double shoot if move max half. No coax required
How is no penalty to BS an extra shot? Automatically Appended Next Post:
I collect DKK so I forget Astra don't get that.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 15:22:30
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 16:27:47
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
AP-5 + rerolling failed wounds against monsters and vehicles. You could always give it a static 4 or 5 damage but that could be considered over the top
|
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
|
|
|
2018/06/22 16:30:34
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Legendary Dogfighter
|
I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 16:32:57
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
ValentineGames wrote:
I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus
But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 16:52:38
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
|
The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.
OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 17:30:22
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Grinding Advance has to be taken into account or rebalancing in light of the changes your suggesting as 4 BS 3+ S9 AP-3 5 damage is is dishing out 7-8 wounds per turn against T8 or less 3+ or worse save units so most vehicals. You still have the hull and any sponsons etc on top.
Add in reroll's orders etc and your going to be removing predator's dreadnaughts and LR's with ease. You've walked into way to good of a return on investment at a 100% points return in a single turn.
A quad las predator does 6 wounds for the same points at half the range and no ability to move without penalty
A Dark Lance ravager vrs T7 3+ 5 wounds T8 3+ 3.5 wounds.
You can maybe justify one change but both together is too good by the maths
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 17:31:31
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
Bobug wrote:The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.
OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion
Is that codex rules, because I collect DKK, so I haven't bothered to buy the codex?
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 17:34:46
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Bobug wrote:The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.
OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion
Is that codex rules, because I collect DKK, so I haven't bothered to buy the codex?
You need to update yourself as there is CA2017, FAQ's,Errata etc in addition to the codex that all changed rules.
But it was one of the bigger changes from index to codex.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 17:37:16
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
Ice_can wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:Bobug wrote:The "two shots" was in regard to grinding advance. All russes (including DKOK ones) get to fire turret weapons twice with no bs penalty for moving asling as they move less tham half diatance or.remain stationary. Coupled with the coax it makes conquerers mean AF.
OT. vamquisher should be str9 d3+3 damage in my opinion
Is that codex rules, because I collect DKK, so I haven't bothered to buy the codex?
You need to update yourself as there is CA2017, FAQ's,Errata etc in addition to the codex that all changed rules.
But it was one of the bigger changes from index to codex.
Groovy. I Missed that one. Probably too busy fapping over the fact we get shadowswords.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 17:39:23
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 17:40:18
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
The joys of a living ruleset you need to make sure everyones plaing the same version of 8th edition 8.1-8.who knows.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 17:51:23
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Legendary Dogfighter
|
Should get back their HE round as well.
Stupid now only firing AT Automatically Appended Next Post: Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus
But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.
Correct...which is not how it works
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 19:53:58
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 20:15:36
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
ValentineGames wrote:Should get back their HE round as well.
Stupid now only firing AT
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus
But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.
Correct...which is not how it works
It does for conquerors and vanquishers.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 20:27:41
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Legendary Dogfighter
|
Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote:Should get back their HE round as well.
Stupid now only firing AT
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:ValentineGames wrote:
I'm more referring to how Co-axial machine guns (so the heavy stubber) are not for ranging in reality. And so should give no bonus
But the DKK Russ' give a re-roll if you shot at what your Co-axial does.
Correct...which is not how it works
It does for conquerors and vanquishers.
No I mean that's not what co-axial machine guns are for
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 20:37:09
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I did my math on the assumption of firing one shot for both the battle cannon and the vanquisher cannon. Firing two shots for both changes nothing in the comparison against each other because you are just multiplying both results by two. It only changes it when you are comparing it against other things. I still stand by my assessment.
-Re-rolls wounds against Monsterous Creatures + Vehicles
-3d3 damage
This is the level required to see vanquishers even make sense from a mathematical standpoint and even then it may still need more buffs on top of this to get people to take them in any kind of numbers. The ONE SHOT hurts!
As I said I would much rather see them going to 1d3 shots, it would make them so much easier to balance.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 20:49:02
Subject: How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
6 flat damage is also very attractive vs shenanigans like serpent shields.
|
|
|
|
2018/06/22 21:43:56
Subject: Re:How to make Leman Russ Vanquishers worth taking.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
w1zard wrote:I did my math on the assumption of firing one shot for both the battle cannon and the vanquisher cannon. Firing two shots for both changes nothing in the comparison against each other because you are just multiplying both results by two. It only changes it when you are comparing it against other things. I still stand by my assessment.
-Re-rolls wounds against Monsterous Creatures + Vehicles
-3d3 damage
This is the level required to see vanquishers even make sense from a mathematical standpoint and even then it may still need more buffs on top of this to get people to take them in any kind of numbers. The ONE SHOT hurts!
As I said I would much rather see them going to 1d3 shots, it would make them so much easier to balance.
No you do need to take into acount the double shooting as it is fundamental to finding a balanced solution not just building the next OP unit.
D3 avarages 2 shots then shooting twice so 4 shots go BS 4 with rerolls 3 hits 2 wounds no saves 12 wounds and one dead predator or leman russ so a 100% return in points cost from a single round of shooting thats filthy OP.
It does double the damage the damage of quad lascannon predator for less points.
|
|
|
|
|