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Hi all!

I am teaching my son (13) to play 40k 8th and the few games we have played currently have unfortunately been rather demoralizing for him.
I personally have been collecting / playing (not nearly enough playing) for around 15 years now and have 3 large armies, Necrons, (mostly)Slaanesh Daemons, and Orks.
He has an army of Salamanders he has been "collecting" for several years.... as in I buy him something in hopes it gains interest for him to learn to play, and that ploy has finally paid off!
Problem is we are both new to 8th, and I have never really even looked at building a SM force before, so I need some advice and possible list suggestions to pass on to him.
(First bit of advice we already learned is I should not use necrons against him so for list advice the enemy would likely be daemons or orks.)

Estimating his collection... (DA stuff was a 2nd hand army)
1-captain
10 tacticals
5 scouts
3 aggressors
5 Termies
2 side car bike thing
3 bikers
1-2 land speeders
2 vindicators
1 stormtalon
1 redemptor dread
1 dread

2 DA dreads
15-20 DA tacticals
several of the DA characters including jet bike guy
15-20 DA termies
1- Terminator LIbrarian
10 ravenwing bikers
1 land raider

Maybe more but that is all I can remember currently.

his list (yet to be used)
Battalion - 1000pts
Captain Warlord - MC Boltgun - Chainsword - Salamander Mantle
Chaplain - Boltgun
3x Intercessor x5 - Grenade launcher
Aggressor squad - flamestorm gauntlets
Dreadnaught - missle launcher - Twin AC
redemptor Dread - 2x fragstorm GL - H onslaught GC - Icarus Rocket Pod - onslaught GC
Vindicator - storm bolter

On my suggestion he has swaped the plasma / H Flamer on the redemptor for the 2 gatling cannons and running "counts as" intercessor's instead of tacticals but I am sure someone with more experience playing SM can give some better list advice.

Something to consider is bolt guns on the aggressors are considerably better than the flamers but less thematic.

Also the chaplain doesn't really add much to the list as he's more of a combat buff. Could maybe try and get a Luitenant instead? Cheaper and the re-roll wounds is nice.

Putting the scout squad in for an intercessor is probably worthwhile as well, freeing up more points

Just noticed that fatbudda319 made some of the same points that I did while I was writing my novel below. Sorry for the repetition.

----

I'll take a shot. I'm still pretty new myself so you'll surely get some good advice from others. This is what I've learned.

1.) Scouts and Intercessors are better than Tactical Marines at this time. Scouts are probably the best because they are cheap(ish) and can forward deploy. Intercessors can also be good if you can get them on an objective and force your opponent to move them off.
2.) Aggressors are pretty great. They are perfect for killing hordes and are able to punch back if they get in CC. Always take the bolter gauntlets. There ability to advance and fire without penalty makes them pretty mobile too.
3.) Terminators are not good. They are not efficient or nearly durable enough. They can be fun to mix in, but they will handicap your list a little bit.
4.) Space Marines are all about using characters to buff your shooters. You probably want a Captain and Lieutenant hanging out with your best shooting units.
5.) Bikes can be good for mobility and grabbing objectives. They are decent at clearing hordes too. Scout bikers are a little bit more efficient, but both are okay.
6.) Dreadnoughts get the chapter tactics, so I think they are usually better than vehicles if they can perform the same function.
7.) Land Speeders aren't super efficient, but can do okay if used correctly. There is a stratagem for the heavy flamers, but it requires you to get really close and doesn't do enough damage to make the points back. You will likely die in your opponent's turn if you get that close.
8.) Hellblasters are pretty great too. You have to give them a captain to baby sit them, overcharge, and make sure you're targeting high value targets. They are versatile in what they can kill, so like Aggressors they fill a need and have some flexibility. You should get these next along with additional scouts.

The list you put together looks pretty good. A couple of notes. Use the Bolter Gauntlets on the Aggressors. I'm not a fan of flamers in any form. Too situational. Convert one of the tacticals into a lieutenant. I'm not a huge fan of chaplains. They should be used as a substitute for captains, but generally I think captains are better. If you can, proxy one of the bikers for a captain on a bike with thunder hammer and storm shield there are some great relics and warlord traits you can give him to make him a pretty durable and powerful character. It also gives him more mobility.

Maybe something like this.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [54 PL, 1000pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [10 PL, 204pts] +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 136pts]: Storm shield [15pts], The Shield Eternal, Thunder hammer [21pts], Twin boltgun [2pts], Warlord: Iron Resolve

Lieutenants [4 PL, 68pts]
. Lieutenant [4 PL, 68pts]: Master-crafted boltgun [3pts], Power axe [5pts]

+ Troops [16 PL, 237pts] +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher [1pts], Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor [72pts], Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Boltgun/Bolt pistol . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

+ Elites [24 PL, 484pts] +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor [42pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [48pts]

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 200pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers [8pts], Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon [36pts], Onslaught Gatling Cannon [16pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

+ Fast Attack [4 PL, 75pts] +

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 75pts]
. 2x Scout Biker [50pts]: 2x Twin boltgun [4pts] . Scout Biker Sergeant [25pts]: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun [2pts]

++ Total: [54 PL, 1000pts] ++

Playing sm in 8th is like playing nids in 7th the outcome is determined so it doesn't matter what you take.

At 1000pts salamanders tacs and devs are strong taken with one heavy weapon for the reroll
At 2000pts giuiliman is your only hope

A few thoughts to consider

1) The list is important, but often not the make or break in many matches that people think it is. You can give a totally fantastic list to a beginner and they can still lose through poor choices.

2) There's often a lot to learn in the game and many people learn via mistakes and good experiences equally. However if they are only learning by trial and error that means making a LOT of mistakes to learn them and to them learn from the handful of good/positive results.

3) As a result of point 2 its possible that a new player can get disheartened early on because they are losing a lot of matches and seeing more weaknesses and problems and not seeing solutions or good events to build upon.



I would say continue to research good lists; but at the same time you want to have teaching games. Cut the lists down to very few units so that he can focus on the handful he's got and how to use them. This also lets you setup games to show how specific units work and how to use them best in battle. It can be as simple as giving him a single unit of anti-tank and a single unit of anti-infantry and giving yourself infantry and a tank and then showing how each of his two units work best against yours.

Not just in a trial and error; but letting him experience that and then showing the rules and stats.


Basically you need to get back to the basics of how to read unit stats to understand what they mean. This is the foundations of how to build an army list - by understanding what the numbers mean in real game terms and what each unit is offering. That lets a person start to see how to not only build options and focus into a list; but also how those units can perform and what situations are good/bad for them in the game itself.
So it directly helps drive improvements in tactical choices and confidence in those choices.



As can showing how to use units on the table top. Thinking about things like cover; risk and reward etc...




Basically you need to take your years of experience and start thinking about how to teach them; writing it down can help you work out your thoughts and then see how better to impart them to your son.




I think if you work on the basics; building a solid understanding then he'll find it more fun to get involved. It's like teaching a person to drive a car. Put them in one with little to no instruction and they'll probably not get anywhere or crash and not find it all that fun; spend time doing the boring basics and repeating those basics and they learn, gain confidence and then can go solo and find the fun.

Thanks for the advice. I realize any list in a beginners hands is still very subject to the players experience. He will get the experience, just wanting to get him pointed in the right direction. Until then I'll be playing Daemonette hordes, cans or trukks, hell maybe I'll see how many scarab swarms I can fit in a 1000pt list

Overread your post has some great all around advice. I find my skills in teaching anything lacking so your tips will help me for sure.

and thank you all for the list tips!

The simple fact of the matter is that the current rules favor a particular style of play. "The Meta" some call it. The more closely an army list reflects the current meta then the more successful that army list will be. THEN skill starts to be a factor, not before.

One thing your son has working against him is he didn't "buy an army." He's got a more or less random assortment of models that just happen to all be Space Marines.

That said, your son's Troops options are not horrible.


A few quick points:

8th is The Shooting Edition.

8th is The Plasma Edition (specifically Plasma Guns & Combi-Plasma guns).

8th is The Re-Roll Edition (Captains let you re-roll all To Hit rolls of 1, Lieutenants let you re-roll all To Wound rolls of 1).

Infantry with lots of Heavy Weapons, or one Heavy Weapon & one Assault Weapons (specifically Plasma Guns & Combi-Plasma guns) are very durable and put out a lot of firepower.

Combat Squads are your friend.


What I would do is ask your son if he prefers the Classic Marines or the new Primaris Marines. If he says Classic then buy him three boxes of Devastators. If he says Primaris then buy him three boxes of Hellblasters.

His win rate should then go up considerably.

If you want to help him to win take orks. Then don't load up on boyz, stormboyz and kustom mega kannons but take also stuff like nobz, mega nobz and any vehicles(barring kustom mega kannons). His win rate will go up and he can start learning tactics needed to beat real meat.

Hah bring list with zero boyz and if he has any sensible game plan then barring super cold dices it's auto win for marines.

 keltikhoa wrote:

Overread your post has some great all around advice. I find my skills in teaching anything lacking so your tips will help me for sure.

and thank you all for the list tips!

A few thoughts that I've found of great help when learning to teach.

1) Writing it down. A lot of what one does in a hobby can be learned over time. Bits here and bits there, from articles, chats, threads and trial and error. As such you can end up in a situation where you know how to achieve something, but you've no way to say that to another person in a clear manner because you've never have to think of it that way.
Breaking it into stages (bullet points) can often help. You go through all the mental choices you would make and write them down.

2) Once you've written down the stages you need go question yourself and ask Why for every step. For every step you need to work out what you went through in your mind to come to that conclusion no matter the answer. This is where you might well find a lot of "it just works" answers for yourself. This can form the foundation for your own further research into the topic and even taking individual steps and practising doing something different. at a single step and seeing the result. Essentially testing your own methodology.

3) Testing and such helps you reinforce what you do and provides a greater understanding. In general to teach you've got to have a greater understanding of what is going on to help you impart that to another person. Because often as not just telling them to parrot copy won't teach them why something works - it won't teach the mechanics of choice making and such which means that they can, at best, only copy in specific situations. This means that whilst they might do find in a situation that looks the same as a practice; any deviation will leave them unsure of how to progress; plus any apparent change might throw them even if the situation is the same*

4) This sounds like a lot, but really much of it is already in your mind. You are writing it out just to get your thoughts clear and straight and to understand your own decision making process - because that's what you are aiming to teach. The conclusions and thus choices you make are the result of the decision process, so you don't want to so much teach the conclusions; you want to teach the mechanics that lead up to those conclusions.


Another angle is repetition and practice, This can be boring so often as not you have to spice it up and put it around just casual battles for fun and suchlike. Do it well and often people don't realise that they are practising as its all just part of the fun. Wargaming being what it is most players don't practice or repeat actions over and over like they might if they were football training and thus spend hours dribbling a ball around posts or passing to each other etc... So you've got to work a little within those constraints .

*eg you might show how a dedicated anti-tank unit can take out a tank. Next time he plays he's got a decent, but not dedicated, anti tank unit against a Tyranid monster. Whilst the mechanics are still the same the different models might throw a person since they can't copy-cat the previous experience.

Howdy,

I brought my son into the game just before 8th came out so have experience of this.

First thing is Space Marines are not great in 8th, I play BA and had a number of very old figures, so I got him to look at the other factions and pick one he liked the look of, he went Necrons (lucky him!) and now has to tone down his lists so he doesn't wipe me off the table every game!

I would recommend that your lad looks at bringing some soup to his army, this will give him a better chance of winning and also, by choosing his own models the force becomes more "his" if you get what I mean. There are a plethora of options, IG, Sisters, Knights etc that can add good value to his army.

Another thing to try is playing narrative games where the balance is in his favour, a scenario where he has unlimited re-enforcement for example takes the sting out of losing models, set the game so that your guys are doing some heroic last stand or something.

I second the suggestion about "mini battles" we often play these just to see "what stuff does what". e.g. how many devastators squadrons are needed to take down a monolith, silly stuff like that.

I also find that my son likes big models that wreck face, get him a knight and watch his face light up as he annihilates ork squads

 gkos wrote:

I also find that my son likes big models that wreck face, get him a knight and watch his face light up as he annihilates ork squads

Already working on that. I told him I would go in half on the IK: Renegade with him. Its worked well and he should have saved enough for that in the next few weeks.
That will surely add some punch for him.

ill take my stompa against it... that should be fun for him

The best way I've found to teach players new tactics and ways to play the army is to make sure you are fully engaged in all phases of the game, and catch your opponent from making a tactical error.

You don't want to play his army for him, but you do want to explain what you are afraid of, and your overall plan of attack. You also want to make sure he is aware of how your list works and what your list is afraid of and why. You also want to let your opponent mulligan, if they make an obvious tactical faux pas, catch them, allow them to take it back, and explain the various options and outcomes available to your opponent and why you would recommend not pursuing that course of action. You want to play the game with a tactically "open hand" from your perspective. advising him so that he understands the strategies you are employing against him, and allowing him to understand the counter play to those strategies and the lynchpins that make them work. For both his and your army. He can then take that knowledge and apply it in the future when he sees those same strategies start to unfold. Essentially you are expanding his toolbox of knowledge.

They key to effectively teaching a table top game is to let your opponent make his own decisions and reach his own conclusions, but making sure to catch them if they make an error, allow them to mulligan, and explain why a different choice would be superior.