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Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

I think that to help combat soup if you take a named character it should lock your army to be only from the named character's faction and subfaction.
For example if your army contained Roboute Guilliman Cato Sicarius you could only take Ultramarines in your list, no imperial guard, no salamanders, just ultras.
For something like the avatar of khaine it would lock you to whatever his <craftworld> is which you can pick.

I just feel that this would be more fluffy and that these major characters would be leading their own faction rather than just bringing a couple of mates to help out a different army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 21:38:07


Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 roflmajog wrote:
I think that to help combat soup if you take a named character it should lock your army to be only from the named character's faction and subfaction.
For example if your army contained Roboute Guilliman you could only take Ultramarines in your list, no imperial guard, no salamanders, just ultras.
For something like the avatar of khaine it would lock you to whatever his <craftworld> is which you can pick.

I just feel that this would be more fluffy and that these major characters would be leading their own faction rather than just bringing a couple of mates to help out a different army.


In the Gathering Storm the force that RG is part of has at least the following elements:

Ad Mech, Knights, Sisters of Battle, various Astartes, Craftworld and Dark Eldar as well as a certain Prophet and of Course Gaurdsmen and Women. Oh and later he adds Sisters of Silence and Custodes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 20:56:31


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Okay I will admit I haven't read any of his fluff I just picked the first character that popped into my head. It still works for most named characters though.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Named characters aren't really the problem here though. Thousand Sons players will just replace Ahriman and continue doing their thing. Balance want achieved at all with this proposed fix.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Thematically, I would absolutely support this with a few exceptions. You run into a lot of snags like Phoenix Lords who do not belong to a Craftworld. They're one of the only well-written/well-fluffed named character lines which makes sense, since they frequently act on their own and show up in the nick of time across the known Universe whenever a Craftworld is more or less in dire need.

You can ignore the recent Guilliman fluff as it's all just a sales-push for the Dark Millenium re-launch, etc. Now, since you're proposing this rule - have you put it to your local group, or the people you play with? There's little point in referencing it online as GW will never take note of it. You're always in charge of how you play the game, even if you're instilling the occasional penalty on yourself.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I'm not a fan.

From a crunchy/competitive perspective, special characters specifically aren't the real problem with soup. Space pope, Lucius, and Illic NIghtspear aren't exactly shaping the meta right now. So punishing lists that include special characters as a whole seems like an arbitrary and roundabout way of nerfing Guilliman lists. You could just as easily say that all soup lists should suffer a -1 to their BS because Guilliman gunlines are powerful or what have you. It's a sweeping change with a lot of casualties that I"m guessing is intended to only nerf a handful of lists.

Fluff-wise, there are plenty of examples of special characters from multiple factions being in the same place on the same side. Off the top of my head:

* Lelith shows up to help out Iyanden and Biel-Tan on Valedor.

* Shrike and the Khan were both involved in the Damocles campaign from a couple years ago.

*Phoenix Lords and Eldrad just show up in each others' stories all the time.

*The Masque and Skarbarand in Fall of Biel-Tan.

* All sorts of crossovers in Fall of Cadia.

Additionally, this kind of screws over anyone that uses a special character's rules to represent their own homebrewed character concept. Want to use Lucius's rules to represent your custom renegade chapter's leader? This proposed rule prevents you from using an allied detachment with Word Bearers rules to represent the coven of daemon summoners that have set up shop in his fleet.

So in terms of crunch, this nerfs/disallows a lot of lists that don't need to be nerfed/banned. In terms of fluff, it would prevent you from recreating certain fluffy battles that appear in official lore while also reducing your options for representing your own custom force. Respectfully my good sir or madame, This kind of just seems like a way of tut-tutting people for fielding an army that doesn't pass your own personal rubric for fluffiness.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Wyldhunt wrote:
From a crunchy/competitive perspective, special characters specifically aren't the real problem with soup. Space pope, Lucius, and Illic NIghtspear aren't exactly shaping the meta right now.


It isn't just about how powerful they are. Illic isn't exactly likely to be fighting alongside a big force of dark eldar with just a few of his fellow craftworlders.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Fluff-wise, there are plenty of examples of special characters from multiple factions being in the same place on the same side. Off the top of my head:

* Lelith shows up to help out Iyanden and Biel-Tan on Valedor.

* Shrike and the Khan were both involved in the Damocles campaign from a couple years ago.

*Phoenix Lords and Eldrad just show up in each others' stories all the time. Pheonix lords don't have a craftworld and are from the same faction as Eldrad.

*The Masque and Skarbarand in Fall of Biel-Tan.

* All sorts of crossovers in Fall of Cadia.


Generally these characters don't show up on their own, they bring an army with them. Just because they are on the same planet fighting the same enemy doesn't mean they are next to each other. Is the main leader of a faction more likely to be leading the main portion of his army or the small group that he sent to assist his allies? Games of 40k are generally either small skirmishes that wouldn't be worth a named character showing up for, or part of a much larger battle where they would be leading a large amount of their own force.


Wyldhunt wrote:
Additionally, this kind of screws over anyone that uses a special character's rules to represent their own homebrewed character concept. Want to use Lucius's rules to represent your custom renegade chapter's leader? This proposed rule prevents you from using an allied detachment with Word Bearers rules to represent the coven of daemon summoners that have set up shop in his fleet.

In terms of fluff, it would prevent you from recreating certain fluffy battles that appear in official lore while also reducing your options for representing your own custom force.


It could easily just be matched play only. If you want to do that play narrative/open. You can't really recreate battles from the fluff anyway because the scale is all wrong.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




What's the balance problem being fixed though? You can say Illic is unlikely to do something but it isn't like it can't happen.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I could see this fix, say Morty + Magnus lists, but it probably creates more issues than it solves.

It certainly does nothing to fix soup lists, as Special Characters are not required for Soup.

I like the intent of this change, but I don't think the execution is right.

-

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Battle of Eagle Gate, Cato Sicarius leads a combined army of Ultramarines, Titans, and Cadians.

Battle of Barathred - Marneus Calgar rallies the local populace of a feudal world to kill the Night Lord invaders.

2nd War on Armageddon - Dante, Calgar and Tu'Shan all fight together.

3rd War on Armageddon - Chaplain Grimaldus fight alongside the Celestial Lions to avenge their losses.

If you want a REALLY good example - Battle of Traitor's Gorge, where an immediately post-Rynn Pedro Kantor and a handful of survivors (so, a squad or two) are saved from overwhelming Ork numbers by a far larger Eldar host.

It's absolutely fluffy to have 1 named leader commanding a small primary force, supported by a larger allied one.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Named characters aren't really the problem here though. Thousand Sons players will just replace Ahriman and continue doing their thing. Balance want achieved at all with this proposed fix.

While I give you the general point, Ahriman is... really not a good example. A guy with 3 casts and +1 to manifest is pretty irreplacable in that army.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So which Craftworld would my (pick any Phoenix Lord) lock me into?
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

A better rule *might* be to limit 1 Named character per army unless they are the same faction.
So you can have Guiliman and Cato Sicarius in the same army because they are the same <Faction>, but you could not have Cato Sicarius and Dante in the same list, even though you could have Ultras and BAs.

This would mean you cannot have Morty and Magnus together, but you could have Magnus and Arhiman, along with a Nurgle detachment if you wanted.
"Faction less" Characters like the Pheonix Lords, could be ignored for this rule.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 20:56:54


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 roflmajog wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
From a crunchy/competitive perspective, special characters specifically aren't the real problem with soup. Space pope, Lucius, and Illic NIghtspear aren't exactly shaping the meta right now.


It isn't just about how powerful they are. Illic isn't exactly likely to be fighting alongside a big force of dark eldar with just a few of his fellow craftworlders.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Fluff-wise, there are plenty of examples of special characters from multiple factions being in the same place on the same side. Off the top of my head:

* Lelith shows up to help out Iyanden and Biel-Tan on Valedor.

* Shrike and the Khan were both involved in the Damocles campaign from a couple years ago.

*Phoenix Lords and Eldrad just show up in each others' stories all the time. Pheonix lords don't have a craftworld and are from the same faction as Eldrad.

*The Masque and Skarbarand in Fall of Biel-Tan.

* All sorts of crossovers in Fall of Cadia.


Generally these characters don't show up on their own, they bring an army with them. Just because they are on the same planet fighting the same enemy doesn't mean they are next to each other. Is the main leader of a faction more likely to be leading the main portion of his army or the small group that he sent to assist his allies? Games of 40k are generally either small skirmishes that wouldn't be worth a named character showing up for, or part of a much larger battle where they would be leading a large amount of their own force.


Wyldhunt wrote:
Additionally, this kind of screws over anyone that uses a special character's rules to represent their own homebrewed character concept. Want to use Lucius's rules to represent your custom renegade chapter's leader? This proposed rule prevents you from using an allied detachment with Word Bearers rules to represent the coven of daemon summoners that have set up shop in his fleet.

In terms of fluff, it would prevent you from recreating certain fluffy battles that appear in official lore while also reducing your options for representing your own custom force.


It could easily just be matched play only. If you want to do that play narrative/open. You can't really recreate battles from the fluff anyway because the scale is all wrong.


My 1500 point armies tend to have like... 40 dudes in them. But in the local narrative campaign where I'm trying to wrest control of an entire planet from the hands of chaos, we can probably safely assume that there are hundreds or thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of eldar in the background fighting on different chunks of the battle field that aren't represented. My 1500 point list represents about a minute of combat between a tiny portion of my overall force against a tiny portion of the enemy's overall force.

So with that in mind, your argument seems strange to me. If it's acceptable for Eldrad to only be leading 1500 points of Ulthwe forces, why is it so strange for him to instead be leading 1000 points of Ulthwe forces while Lelith is leading 1000 points of the Cult of Strife? Especially if Lelith wants to be near Eldrad because she knows that's where the most glorious fighting will be. And why is it so much less strange for Eldrad's buddy Farseer Shmeldrad to be leading that little chunk of army? If you pause the movie on a close-up shot in the Battle for Helm's Deep, Aragorn is only leading like, two guys into battle. If you wait for the wide shot, he's leading an army. It's a similar principle here.

Of course, I also reject the idea that a special character can't be leading a small group of followers or that a special character can't while someone else can. Surely Illic, pathfinder extraordinaire, could reasonably be wandering around with a handful of ranger buddies. He doesn't suddenly start dying if he's not surrounded by enough craftworlders all at once. Heck. It's arguably fluffy for him to show up with a very small force. He's a wanderer.

It kind of sounds like you just have a personal fluff-based preference that isn't really related to balance issues or game design. Which is fine, but not really actionable beyond expressing those preferences to your own personal opponents. It kind of seems like you're just telling people they're writing their fluff "incorrectly" or having bad wrong fun. Sure, it's a bit of an eye-roller when Celestine is hanging out with Guilliman yet again, but that's a perfectly valid way to play.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

Wyldhunt wrote:
My 1500 point armies tend to have like... 40 dudes in them. But in the local narrative campaign where I'm trying to wrest control of an entire planet from the hands of chaos, we can probably safely assume that there are hundreds or thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of eldar in the background fighting on different chunks of the battle field that aren't represented. My 1500 point list represents about a minute of combat between a tiny portion of my overall force against a tiny portion of the enemy's overall force.
If you pause the movie on a close-up shot in the Battle for Helm's Deep, Aragorn is only leading like, two guys into battle. If you wait for the wide shot, he's leading an army. It's a similar principle here.


This is exactly my point. Big hero completely surrounded by his army, not just the ones on the table but the ones off it too, without room for allies in the tiny amount of the battle that is that close to him.

Wyldhunt wrote:
If it's acceptable for Eldrad to only be leading 1500 points of Ulthwe forces, why is it so strange for him to instead be leading 1000 points of Ulthwe forces while Lelith is leading 1000 points of the Cult of Strife? Especially if Lelith wants to be near Eldrad because she knows that's where the most glorious fighting will be. And why is it so much less strange for Eldrad's buddy Farseer Shmeldrad to be leading that little chunk of army?


Eldrad isn't just leading that 1500, you missed my point entirely. It isn't strange for them to be leading those contingents if they have more around them that aren't in this tiny bit of the battle being represented if they aren't super close to each other. Shmeldrad is more likely to be leading it because Eldrad, the leader of the farseers of Ulthwe told him to go because he needs to look after this massive army of 100000 guys.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Of course, I also reject the idea that a special character can't be leading a small group of followers or that a special character can't while someone else can. Surely Illic, pathfinder extraordinaire, could reasonably be wandering around with a handful of ranger buddies. He doesn't suddenly start dying if he's not surrounded by enough craftworlders all at once. Heck. It's arguably fluffy for him to show up with a very small force. He's a wanderer.


Yeah he could be wandering around with them easy, but he wouldn't show up to a major battle with just them, he would just sneak away and get reinforcements before he fought the 100000 guys because he isn't a brain dead moron. Or he would be taking on a smaller amount of troops in which case his small group doesn't even need allies of his own kind let alone backup from the harlequins or drukhari.

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Soups don't seem to feature much in the way of named characters so i'm not sure this changes anything other than pushing the occasional inquisitor or distraction celestine out of the game. Less mephistons with the smash captains perhaps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/19 08:33:42


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 roflmajog wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
My 1500 point armies tend to have like... 40 dudes in them. But in the local narrative campaign where I'm trying to wrest control of an entire planet from the hands of chaos, we can probably safely assume that there are hundreds or thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of eldar in the background fighting on different chunks of the battle field that aren't represented. My 1500 point list represents about a minute of combat between a tiny portion of my overall force against a tiny portion of the enemy's overall force.
If you pause the movie on a close-up shot in the Battle for Helm's Deep, Aragorn is only leading like, two guys into battle. If you wait for the wide shot, he's leading an army. It's a similar principle here.


This is exactly my point. Big hero completely surrounded by his army, not just the ones on the table but the ones off it too, without room for allies in the tiny amount of the battle that is that close to him.



Wyldhunt wrote:
If it's acceptable for Eldrad to only be leading 1500 points of Ulthwe forces, why is it so strange for him to instead be leading 1000 points of Ulthwe forces while Lelith is leading 1000 points of the Cult of Strife? Especially if Lelith wants to be near Eldrad because she knows that's where the most glorious fighting will be. And why is it so much less strange for Eldrad's buddy Farseer Shmeldrad to be leading that little chunk of army?


Eldrad isn't just leading that 1500, you missed my point entirely. It isn't strange for them to be leading those contingents if they have more around them that aren't in this tiny bit of the battle being represented if they aren't super close to each other. Shmeldrad is more likely to be leading it because Eldrad, the leader of the farseers of Ulthwe told him to go because he needs to look after this massive army of 100000 guys.


I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that a special character would have to be literally standing towards the center of his army's formation? Lysander never defends a position with the assistance of non-astartes allies? Aeldari leaders only fight in the middle of their own formations with thousands of bodies between themselves and their allies? I get that leader characters have orders to give, but that sounds more like an argument against any character with leadership responsibilities being ill-suited for the tabletop in general. Whether or not someone has a canonical backstory shouldn't impact any of this. Why should Chapter Master Hypotheticus of the Example Marines be more likely to hang out with some guardsmen lead by Yarrick than Lukas the Trickster (he still has rules, right?) or Logan Grimnar?

I could very well still be missing your point, but it sounds like you have very specific ideas of where a given special character prefers to be standing (or fighting) at any given time. And again, these are all fluff-based points. Unless you feel gameplay would be better served by the proposed rule, then you're basically just taking issue with the stories people are telling.



Wyldhunt wrote:
Of course, I also reject the idea that a special character can't be leading a small group of followers or that a special character can't while someone else can. Surely Illic, pathfinder extraordinaire, could reasonably be wandering around with a handful of ranger buddies. He doesn't suddenly start dying if he's not surrounded by enough craftworlders all at once. Heck. It's arguably fluffy for him to show up with a very small force. He's a wanderer.


Yeah he could be wandering around with them easy, but he wouldn't show up to a major battle with just them, he would just sneak away and get reinforcements before he fought the 100000 guys because he isn't a brain dead moron. Or he would be taking on a smaller amount of troops in which case his small group doesn't even need allies of his own kind let alone backup from the harlequins or drukhari.


"We have to get past those orks before the escape ships take off. We're too deep into enemy territory for that confounded autarch to send a rescue party for us. Fortunately for us, these Iyandeni lead by the notoriously reckless Prince Yriel were cut off with us. If we work together, we might be able to punch a hole through the greenskin cordon and get to those ships."



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

If you’re talking fluff a lot of these characters would never step foot on a battle field in the 40k scale. I think some should have minimum points on them and tie you in to at least 50% from their faction. To be honest I don’t use special characters because I like to invent my own or can’t fathom why they’d be fighting in the battle I’m playing.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Andykp wrote:
If you’re talking fluff a lot of these characters would never step foot on a battle field in the 40k scale. I think some should have minimum points on them and tie you in to at least 50% from their faction. To be honest I don’t use special characters because I like to invent my own or can’t fathom why they’d be fighting in the battle I’m playing.


The thing is, if your character is leading 50,000 points worth of army, then he's also leading 1,500 points of army if you just zoom the camera in enough. Was your character issuing orders from the relatively safety of the army's rear? Looks like the enemy has managed to sneak a force behind your lines to try and take him out. Was your character spearheading the assault? Then your 1,500 point army represents the very tip of that spear while the rest of the battle happens "off-camera."

Also, some people like to use the rules of a special character to represent their own commander. I've used Lias Issodon (the Forgeworld Raptors chapter master) to represent my "Alpha Legion" marines before because his infiltration and sabotage rules are very fluffy for my own character. So it might be odd for a canon character to be in a given battle, but it might be less strange for the less-established character with the same statline to be duking it out.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with simply not liking special characters or preferring to not use them unless a game is of a certain size. I'm just not in favor of creating and enforcing rules that punish those who do.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Wyldhunt wrote:
Andykp wrote:
If you’re talking fluff a lot of these characters would never step foot on a battle field in the 40k scale. I think some should have minimum points on them and tie you in to at least 50% from their faction. To be honest I don’t use special characters because I like to invent my own or can’t fathom why they’d be fighting in the battle I’m playing.


The thing is, if your character is leading 50,000 points worth of army, then he's also leading 1,500 points of army if you just zoom the camera in enough. Was your character issuing orders from the relatively safety of the army's rear? Looks like the enemy has managed to sneak a force behind your lines to try and take him out. Was your character spearheading the assault? Then your 1,500 point army represents the very tip of that spear while the rest of the battle happens "off-camera."

Also, some people like to use the rules of a special character to represent their own commander. I've used Lias Issodon (the Forgeworld Raptors chapter master) to represent my "Alpha Legion" marines before because his infiltration and sabotage rules are very fluffy for my own character. So it might be odd for a canon character to be in a given battle, but it might be less strange for the less-established character with the same statline to be duking it out.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with simply not liking special characters or preferring to not use them unless a game is of a certain size. I'm just not in favor of creating and enforcing rules that punish those who do.


Fair points. I’ve done the same with some special characters myself, especially while waiting for a codex. You’ve won me over. It is a game we should all be having fun.
   
 
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