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WARNING - Long slightly rambling though process post here. I think it all makes sense, but be warned lol. And if you're able to reach the end, and provide me with some helpful responses, I'd be super grateful

So I'm in the process of crafting up a Chaos army list. It's a project I started last year, but for various reasons I had to take a break and so only a few models have been completed so far.

So the vague idea/story behind the army is that it is a small force from an (as yet undecided) traitor legion, that were lost at some point in the warp/eye of terror (either pre or post heresy, not sure yet) and have been battling their way free. Something like that anyway. Irrelevant to most of you I'm sure!

Basically boils down to:

An army with very few 'human' units, as attrition would have taken it's toll. Kinda like a Chaos Iyanden.

Characters and Elites make up most of the 'humans' in the list. Highly defensive and powerful, but small in number.

Dreadnoughts (and maybe other vehicles) are present (Contemptors and Leviathan maybe, 'Helbrutes' perhaps as part of the next point)

Also (and the reason they are under 'chaos' and not a normal SM army) they have captured or enslaved powerful daemons or psykers to aid them. So:

Helbrutes would fit in here.

Giant Chaos Spawn / Maulerfiends / Daemon Engines / Daemons and not sure what else would be fitting or needed to fill out the list.

So part of the decision is trying to find the best legion to base my 'base' ruleset on.

Deathguard seems potentially appropriate, with their 'resilient' FnP rule being fitting for a defensive force (I could model units with shields to show the additional protection). Also offers a lot of single-character options which would work for a varied character setup. However, all of the namings of items/units/weapons being 'plague/blight/bloat/noxious' wouldn't fit my cleaner aesthetic too well. Also Deathguard seem to require a lot of horde units like cultists or poxwalkers as chaff which is tricky too. Currently the frontrunner though, but with some conversions and 'renaming' to fit my narrative.

Thousand Sons have the background of 'life force contained/sustained by technology and magic' already which is great, and they have a lot of psychic options. However their defensiveness bonuses seems to be limited to 'All is Dust', which is ok but only on Rubicons and Scarabs (which may or may not be a bad thing). Very little variety in character options beyond multiple sorcerers.

Then of course there's vanilla CSM, probably Alpha Legion or maybe just Renegades...


ANYWAY - My kinda basic test list outline (Based on Death guard):

Characters (HQ):

Daemon Prince of Nurgle, and maybe even -
Another Daemon Prince (optional) - two might be cool, I'd make them two different ones though. Maybe Nurgle and Tzeentch, Walker and Flyer. The second would have to be in a second detachment though.

Typhus (Or a standard Lord of Contagion).

Malignant Plaguecaster


Strong Elite Unit:

Deathshroud Terminators - I like the 30k models for these guys. Expensive in points though, and it seems terminators don't get much love in 8th on here.

Obliterators - I have a cool conversion idea for these, but I don't think they can be DG so I'd have to have them in second detachment.

Noxious Blightringer, Foul Blightspawn, Biologus Putrifier, Plague Surgeon - Additional 'character' options. Not sure I could fit them into a list though, and would require conversions.

Mechanised Support:
A Leviathan Dread - Two butcher cannon arrays. Lots of Dakka. Or one butcher cannon and one fist, as I could move him each turn without penalty.
and/or
Two Contemptors - Each with butcher cannons. Works out about the same price as a single Leviathan.

(This relies on a lot of Forgeworld though, so instead of contemptors I could go with 2x Helbrutes with Power Scourge and ... maybe the Plasma Cannon, or Twin Lascannon. Same cost as contemptors, but without the invulnerable saves, so a little iffy maybe.)

Daemon Support:
Giant Chaos Spawn - Cool conversion for this one. Not cheap, but durable, and I could summon it in or just run it as a big distraction carnifex.
Maulerfiend - Basically a second Giant Spawn, but a little different. Still a big hulking distraction/interference.


Troops:
Poxwalkers - The crew of the ship that succumbed to the warp became zombies. Fits the story. I'd probably only want to run a few though, maybe 2 squads of 20 at most. Maybe only 1 squad of 20.

Maybe some Cultists. Or Daemons, like Nurglings. Not sure here. Need to add troops without adding loads of bodies to the 'elite/attrition' theme of the army. Plague Marines fit in a way, but they seem a bit weak for the points. I like Noise Marines as a general rule, but to be troops they'd need to be Emperors Children which complicates detachments!



-----------------------------

I think I'll stop this here. Would be nice to hear any thoughts on the above units, and how it would be possible to fuse my idea into a feasible list.

It might even be that someone will pop up with something like "if you changed to thousand sons and used X unit instead, you would be better off" which is also fine. I'd probably go with Exalted Sorcerers on Discs, another unit I kinda like. They do seem to heavily rely on the psychic phase though, while DG seems a little more balanced. (My main army is Eldar, so I don't need another major Psychic army really aha).

Thanks to anyone who read this far!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appended -

Considering the change to thousand sons. Differences to the above would be:

Scarab Occult terminators instead of deathshroud.

Ahriman as character. Would need to find more elsewhere though.

Tzaangors as some troops.


Much of the rest is the same, though I'd lose the ability to move and shoot heavy weapons on my walkers. Big loss there.

If you're not interested in another psyker army you should definitely avoid Thousand Sons; the psychic phase is really where the majority of the action is for them, possibly even more so than Eldar.

regarding troops. I'd reccomend going with cultists. Cultists might seem a bit at odd with your force, but they're actually not. Cultists are a pretty cheap resource for chaos as there's lots of despirate bodies out there. so by taking mostly cultists as your troops you can actually enhance the feel of a force struggling for PEOPLE. as presumably the cultists would just be dregs they picked up on world after they'd landed etc.

If you want to avoid humans, i'd say what do you think about mutants?
Technically you could use multiple detachments, take a R&H detachment and take a min battallion in Mutant rabble.
You can give them shotguns/ autoguns/ lasguns to your hearts content, additionally they would do fairly well to represent a crew that has mutated, beyond reason. (come in numbers from 10-50 so unequal numbers etc are a possibility)
obviously you then potentially need to align yourself to one specific god-keyword. So that you can take the same Covenant as to make the list battleforged.
Durabilitywise, have you thought about Decimators? They are atleast according to their own fluff, hired as mercenaries and highly durable. (Daemon engine that does not lose stats, aswell as having no damage table and good bs./ bonus points because they also get heretic astartes legion buff and marks, take nurgle and use some cp for the healing stratagem)
Also consider this: They were trapped in the warp, were they by far are not the biggest fish there, so they don't want to be seen. That sentiment and doctrine became outright paranoia, this mannifests itself in the warp in their armor which shrouds them.
Take count as Alpha Legion. -1 on the enemy to hit rolls on all models makes them waaaaayy more durable. Additionally, you can take plaguemarines as an elite slot they gain the alpha legion trait, let's just say they become highly durable, and would make place for some really intersting conversion options.
Warpsmiths as mechanics of the ship and binder for daemon engines could do well also. (They are really cheap for the ammount of gun they carry, and their baseline 2+ armor makes then a tough nut to crack, add the alpha legion buff and they become really annoying to deal with)
Bind that toghether with the keyword Nurgle, and you are good to go. Additionally the Nurgle stratagem that resotores W can serously help you stay around with Kyborgs etc.
Cheap CP with the R&H mutants, which get a 6++ FNP from the covenant of nurgle and have a decent chance at t4. Terminator lords/ Sorcerers as HQ's for a vanguard detachment. Kyborgs and decimators for the heavy lifting, don't forget that you can infiltrate decimators too.

"take nurgle and use some cp for the healing stratagem"

Grandfathers Blessing is Infantry only.

As for modeling Mutants, I just used Ork bodies with Crypt Ghoul and beastmen heads.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
"take nurgle and use some cp for the healing stratagem"

Grandfathers Blessing is Infantry only.

As for modeling Mutants, I just used Ork bodies with Crypt Ghoul and beastmen heads.

Wellp, here i thought i missed something.
Jep orks make good mutated bodies, Zombies are also decent. Additionally gsc units, they even come with a huge variety of shotguns and possible mutated body parts.

Interesting ideas for sure.

Alpha Legion was my favourite of the 'vanilla' legion traits for sure, while Noise Marines were probably my favourite of the special marine squads.

Noise marines might work, firing at 24" range and the enemy having -1 to hit them outside of 12" isn't too bad. But you're right that Plague Marines would be even more durable.

Is the mutant rabble actually a better option than poxwalkers? I guess using an R&H detachment opens up some options like Ogryns too, and a couple more character options (though I can only remember the Malefic Lord being the main option, and i believe he was nerfed recently?)


Considering the option of minimizing my 'elites' choices, as in the current edition they seem to mostly be rather expensive but fairly easy to kill (mostly due to plasma I guess). If I can cram in a whole bunch of characters instead, protected from being shot at by their screen of mutants / daemons, and reinforced by hulking engines... might work? Kind of like a Chaos version of the Imperial Assassins, lots of characters that can't easily be killed at range...

I will be honest, Mutants are random, they roll a d6 and are generally worse then regular IG guardsmen, but they can get t4 additional moevement or an additional attack.
So they are eitehr worse or better.
Additionally: useing an enforcer will make the 50 man blob ignore ld completely (unnerfed Commisar albeit removing d3 models)
It's a tossup really between poxwalkers and mutant rabble, until you consider one can be made imune to LD and can shoot.

The reason i said take Plague marines is fairly simple: Durable and "cheap" additionally you can pack a 5 model unit with 3 plasma throwers, since the champion is also allowed to get one, or ofcourse the nice plague weaponry.
The forward operative stratagem makes them really good at taking objectives in the no-mans-land. Then again they are not your typical "elite" choice and are reasonably tough enough for their price. MSU is your friend, even for them and 3 PG's are still really bad news for everything that has to deal with the unit. (-1 to on plaguemarines is in hindsight very much broken )

Decimators are a whole other beast, in CA they got cheaper and the butcher autocannon got cheaper. Think of them as a Hellbrute on steroids, with better possibility for equipment for a bit more cost. Generally i run mine non optimal (read not 2 butcher cannons but one and a meleeweapon) but it get's its points back allmost all the time except if i am getting really unlucky.

The malefic lord got nerfed into oblivion, don't even bother. But there is still the option of the renegade commander, a reasonable priced guy at 25 pts. Fairly cheap and if he is your warlord he will give your R&H a covenant. Nurgle gives a 6+fnp against all weapons of strength 4 or less.
Tzeentch gives 5+ overwatch, Khorne gives +1 on the S charachteristic on a chrage, slaanesh gives movement based buffs.
Enforcers are charachters and a Elite choice. However their main job is to keep the 50 man or 100 man blob/s inbetween your weakspot and your enemy in line not fighting. (allbeit they are decentish enough for melee, just only commit them when you can't use them to keep the rabbles inline anymore.)
You also get access with R&H to units like marauders, probably the best 6ppm model in the game and one of the most effective elite units in the game. Have 2 rules.
you can chose between 3 specialisations:
One of them is a alpha legion -bs trait on all distances and +1 additional to coversaves (power armor on a 6 ppm model is good)
A 4+ armor and additional krakgreanades ( on top of your krak greanades for whatever reason) Add a chimera and you have your very own Panzergrenadier regiment, but not what you are looking for.
The worst one let's you reroll all missed hits in melee, but frankly hitting isn't the problem with s3 profile now isn't it.

The other rule is "In it for the Money"
Instead of morale tests, they roll 1d6: on a 1 the whole unit runs (command CP reroll) and on a 2-6 the units passes the check at no losses
The unit can take up to 2 special weapons including sniperrifles and is generally decent in melee aswell with 2 base attacks. Also the marauder chief has 2w.
Disciples are also better Veterans, having bs and ws of 3+ for the same cost and are decent ofcourse for beeing used as Mechanized fist units or Valkyrie drop units with shotguns.
Ogryn brutes are good. main problem might be though if you run into something like Tau, or very mobile, then they will die before they can actually get in combat.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I will be honest, Mutants are random, they roll a d6 and are generally worse then regular IG guardsmen, but they can get t4 additional moevement or an additional attack.
So they are eitehr worse or better.
Additionally: useing an enforcer will make the 50 man blob ignore ld completely (unnerfed Commisar albeit removing d3 models)
It's a tossup really between poxwalkers and mutant rabble, until you consider one can be made imune to LD and can shoot.

The reason i said take Plague marines is fairly simple: Durable and "cheap" additionally you can pack a 5 model unit with 3 plasma throwers, since the champion is also allowed to get one, or ofcourse the nice plague weaponry.
The forward operative stratagem makes them really good at taking objectives in the no-mans-land. Then again they are not your typical "elite" choice and are reasonably tough enough for their price. MSU is your friend, even for them and 3 PG's are still really bad news for everything that has to deal with the unit. (-1 to on plaguemarines is in hindsight very much broken )

Decimators are a whole other beast, in CA they got cheaper and the butcher autocannon got cheaper. Think of them as a Hellbrute on steroids, with better possibility for equipment for a bit more cost. Generally i run mine non optimal (read not 2 butcher cannons but one and a meleeweapon) but it get's its points back allmost all the time except if i am getting really unlucky.

The malefic lord got nerfed into oblivion, don't even bother. But there is still the option of the renegade commander, a reasonable priced guy at 25 pts. Fairly cheap and if he is your warlord he will give your R&H a covenant. Nurgle gives a 6+fnp against all weapons of strength 4 or less.
Tzeentch gives 5+ overwatch, Khorne gives +1 on the S charachteristic on a chrage, slaanesh gives movement based buffs.
Enforcers are charachters and a Elite choice. However their main job is to keep the 50 man or 100 man blob/s inbetween your weakspot and your enemy in line not fighting. (allbeit they are decentish enough for melee, just only commit them when you can't use them to keep the rabbles inline anymore.)
You also get access with R&H to units like marauders, probably the best 6ppm model in the game and one of the most effective elite units in the game. Have 2 rules.
you can chose between 3 specialisations:
One of them is a alpha legion -bs trait on all distances and +1 additional to coversaves (power armor on a 6 ppm model is good)
A 4+ armor and additional krakgreanades ( on top of your krak greanades for whatever reason) Add a chimera and you have your very own Panzergrenadier regiment, but not what you are looking for.
The worst one let's you reroll all missed hits in melee, but frankly hitting isn't the problem with s3 profile now isn't it.

The other rule is "In it for the Money"
Instead of morale tests, they roll 1d6: on a 1 the whole unit runs (command CP reroll) and on a 2-6 the units passes the check at no losses
The unit can take up to 2 special weapons including sniperrifles and is generally decent in melee aswell with 2 base attacks. Also the marauder chief has 2w.
Disciples are also better Veterans, having bs and ws of 3+ for the same cost and are decent ofcourse for beeing used as Mechanized fist units or Valkyrie drop units with shotguns.
Ogryn brutes are good. main problem might be though if you run into something like Tau, or very mobile, then they will die before they can actually get in combat.

Thanks for the rundown!

The problem I'm seeing, is that they would seem to require a lot of other R&H units to support them, along with only getting their chaos buff if they have an R&H warlord (which would mean losing out on the big buffs available from having the CSM character as a warlord).

If I ran a detachment of R&H, it would be with one or two of the cheap characters, a mutant rabble squad maybe, possibly some maruaders set up in the sneaky/snipery kind of loadout. But none of them would have the Nurgle pact, which would immediately make them less worth it.

Plague Marines might be possible though, as an alternative to using terminators. Especially if I can kit them out to be as deadly a strike force as possible. I like the Flail of Corruption, which up to 2 of them can have, as it seems fitting along with things like the maulerfiend lasher tendrils and the helbrute power scourge. (EDIT - I realise that I wouldn't be able to have Alpha Legion plaguemarines using plague weapons, because those options are only in the Death Guard codex I believe, and I'd have to use Vanilla Plague Marines in order to get the -1 to hit trait on them. I could have a DG detachment though, get better weapons but without the -1 to hit. Tough choice. - Scratch that, turns out the vanilla codex plagues do have those options, awesome.)

I have this unused model at the moment, which is a giant tank walker, which is probably a little big to be a Rhino, but might work well as a Land Raider or a Spartan Assault Tank. Considering the merits of having two units of plague marines with a couple of supporting characters in this (slightly eggs-in-one-basket) super strong core force, surrounded by daemon princes, giant spawn, maulerfiend, decimators/hellbrutes... would be lacking in actual troops, but I could have some cultists or poxwalkers or nurglings just running interference to stop deep strikers getting too close... And the characters can be used to summon in some stuff if required. Might work.

You require excactly 3 units of R&H
Commander, run barebones, give him a autogun for 0 pts.
Another commander same as before

2x Enforcers, maybe a pp,mostlikely Autoguns

3x30-50 mutants, give them auto / lasguns

Voila, Battalion filled 5 cp generated
The Covenants generally are ok'ish not really necessary. a 4ppm T4 or M8 modell is still a very dangerous Tarpit.

After that go for your gusto.

Technically for chosing a renegeade commander as your warlod, you still don't lose much, because Alpha Legion trait is basically whacamole 2.0.
To get the legion traits for a detachment you just need a Chaos lord leading said detachment. Atleast that stands that way in my Codex and the warlord traits compared to a armywide buff and a baseline warlord trait from the book are preeeeeety much interchangeable

Not Online!!! wrote:
You require excactly 3 units of R&H
Commander, run barebones, give him a autogun for 0 pts.
Another commander same as before

2x Enforcers, maybe a pp,mostlikely Autoguns

3x30-50 mutants, give them auto / lasguns

Voila, Battalion filled 5 cp generated
The Covenants generally are ok'ish not really necessary. a 4ppm T4 or M8 modell is still a very dangerous Tarpit.

After that go for your gusto.

Technically for chosing a renegeade commander as your warlod, you still don't lose much, because Alpha Legion trait is basically whacamole 2.0.
To get the legion traits for a detachment you just need a Chaos lord leading said detachment. Atleast that stands that way in my Codex and the warlord traits compared to a armywide buff and a baseline warlord trait from the book are preeeeeety much interchangeable

definitely won't be running 90-150 mutants lol. 40 would be the absolute maximum, and that's if I ever work up the effort to paint that many. This is why I sold up my old horde army, too many identical tiny models to paint just for a single unit choice.

Actually that is even better:
Battalion
How about this

HQ
2x Renegade commander 50 pts.

Elites
3x5 marauders 2xSniperrifles 102 pts
3x5 Disciples Autocannon, PG162pts

troops
3x10 Mutants 120pts or 3x10 cultists or 3x10 militia

Total 434 pts.
body count 62.

You have avid pts. left for your typical 1500-2000pts range.
generated 5 cp for use of other more specific units like kyborgs, Decimators, hellbrutes, the Alphalegion plaguemarines, etc.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Actually that is even better:
Battalion
How about this

HQ
2x Renegade commander 50 pts.

Elites
3x5 marauders 2xSniperrifles 102 pts
3x5 Disciples Autocannon, PG162pts

troops
3x10 Mutants 120pts or 3x10 cultists or 3x10 militia

Total 434 pts.
body count 62.

You have avid pts. left for your typical 1500-2000pts range.
generated 5 cp for use of other more specific units like kyborgs, Decimators, hellbrutes, the Alphalegion plaguemarines, etc.

Interesting. Might have potential.

What are the Renegade Commanders like? Are they literally just cheap and terrible? Though I could model them just as herders for the mutants/militia.

Basically a Company Commander for 5 pts less and with the full base equipment.
They profit from their own covenant if they are a warlord and you can take the base warlord traits in the rule book.
So yes they are better pts wise because you can buy energy weapons / plasmapistols' etc for the same point as the company commander costs base.
energy axes and or energy maces (or any weapon that gives + on strenght is a good choice if you want to whack some people)
If you want to run cheap, give them an autogun and profit off their good bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have looked again at CA.
A Decimator with Siegeclaw, hellflammer inbuilt and a Butchercannon costs 187, is more durable then a hellbrute, a daemon engine, has a 5+ invuln save, more movement, more attacks, Infernal regen.

I think something like this might be fun and with as few models as possible to build.

Vanguard Detachment. (1hq min3 elites)

HQ
Chaos Lord, Alpha Legion, Nurgle: blade of the Hydra, Jumpmodule 74 pts.

Warpsmith, Alpha Legion, Nurgle: Flammer, Melta, Energy Axe 76pts.

Elites:
Decimator, Nurgle, Alpha Legion: Butchercannon Siegeclaw with inbuilt heavy flammer 187 pts.
Decimator, Nurgle, Alpha Legion: Butchercannon Siegeclaw with inbuilt heavy flammer 187 pts.

5 Plague Marines, Nurgle, Alpha Legion: Champion Plasmagun, 2 Plasmaguns. 124pts.
5 Plague Marines, Nurgle, Alpha Legion: Champion Plasmagun, 2 Plasmaguns. 124pts.
5 Plague Marines, Nurgle, Alpha Legion: Champion Plasmagun, 2 Plasmaguns. 124pts.

Support
3 Kyborgs, Nurgle, Alpha Legion. 195 pts
3 Kyborgs, Nurgle, Alpha Legion. 195 pts.

Total: 1286 pts.
Models 25.

With the R&H battalion above.
HQ
2x Renegade commander, Covenant of Nurgle 50 pts.

Elites
3x5 marauders, Covenant of Nurgle ,2xSniperrifles 102 pts
3x5 Disciples, Covenant of Nurgle Autocannon, PG162pts

troops
3x10 Mutants, Covenant of Nurgle 120pts or 3x10 cultists or 3x10 militia

Total 434 pts.
body count 62.

2 Detachments
Absolute Total: 1720pts.
Models total 87.

Now if you were to make a 2000 pts list, you could think about 2 Valkryies, for transport.
A bunch of Chimeras probably could help you with providing more metal boxes and mobility.
An additional smaller knight, maybee a Hellverin?
A bunch more cultist/ militia squads?
Maybee some ogryins in a Valkyrie? (4 Ogryns cost only 124 pts a valkyrie with salvo pods 132 pts. Don't forget Grav Inserition, that allows them a nearly guaranteed charge after they come in from reserve)

Gameplan:

R&H gives the numbers.
R&H Commander one of the two is the warlord, keep him around the mutants with the basic LD aura trait from the core rulebook. The other one can be used as a 25pts decently armed dude.
Marauders spread out, act as your frontline, hide in cover and camp bush, like the filthy snipers they are. (if the enemy wants to dislodge them he has to wipe them out and the -1 to hit on all ranges against them and their 3 + armor in cover makes them really a waste to shoot at). Disciples out of LoS don't be afraid to move before shooting, they have good enough BS.
Mutants make Backfield security and hold objecitevs, sadly the list is lacking troops atm so maybee you would need some additional Militia or Mutant squads (40 pts per 10 is a good price).
Decimators do Decimator things, Targeting enemy vehicles or semi heavy infantery, forcing morale on -2 because of the butcher cannons and or destroy heavier vehicles with their siege claws.
Warpsmith is babysitter of said decimators aswell as some more AT.
Plague marines either have suicide duty with forward operatives stratagem or camp around, attack as soon as targets of oppurtunity arrive.
The Lord is not in reserve, either jumping around and providing rerolls for your decimators or other Alpha Legionares/ Decimators.
The kyborgs are your anti everything that needs to die reserve, maybee consider using the nurgle stratagem to fill the squad back up.