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Hi Fellas,

Been building my 2k list for a while now and I typically try to pick out my favorite units and soup them together into one army (I chose 2k because I found anything lower in points to hard to narrow down). I have models I love and always work to include in my army (though cant seem to work out now), models I enjoy enough because they are cool (i love what they do/ the carnage they bring) and then everyone else (the "I'd rather spend my points elsewears"). If looks is the major issue, I convert the model.

I'm a very logical thinker, so justifying a units use falls a lot more on worth than everything else, yet I feel myself constantly being strung over what to take. There just isn't enough points for me to take everything I want, and I find this issue even more frustrating with the logic now added into list building in the form of CP, limited detachments and new restrictive elements.

In the past, I would take min HQs and troops out of preference for elite armies, but now with CP I feel the standard is pushing towards very identical lists. Using DE as an example: My favorite units are: Reavers, Mandrakes, Incubi, Clawed Fiend. Then my average likes are hellions, warriors, venoms. My least favorite are wychs; I tolerate the succubus (I plan to convert them).

Due to CP, it logically makes sense to pursue battalions. Brigades are too restrictive for me and everything else offers 1 CP, so is a secondary choice. Because of this I now need to take 2 succubus and 3 wytch squads. Because these squads cost so little, the four CP and definitely make it worth while, though now I find myself spending points on units I don't like rather than Wraithblades, Warp Spiders, ect (units I love conceptually and look wise) because of these obvious inclinations towards list building. Furthermore, a lot of these units require transports (I smell a GW $ making scheme here) resulting in even less available points. (I spend all my CP's on relics so I may need them more than most, especially since I want to run Ynnari (dont get me started on all their list building pains in the asse, Yvraine needs to be warlord, has gak traits, no relics, forces everthing to be Ynnari, mono codex, would much rather take the Ycarne but again, not enough points)

The issue I am having is that the units I enjoy taking are now being fluffed and ruled out by the taxes to keep up with CPs (and take weapon upgrades and transports ect). There is simply such a low availability in points now within 40k due to the large requirements in list building to remain reasonably competitive that I've found the majority of lists look extremely similar (after you get done picking the standard HQ and troop choices, there are only so many points left), and that I cant make a list that includes all the models I want working cohesively under 2.5k, and I typically go for 1850pt lists

Why not play 2500pts? Our group always at that level or above.

Or, you could redefine your goal and then your criteria for model selection changes.

For example, I want to build a competitive, CP efficient list so I include X, Y and Z, maximising efficiency and including some models that I like if it doesn't impact too heavily on the effectiveness of the list. Guard and Eldar are excellent for this.

Or, I decide to build a list for fluff purposes. For example, today I'm going to build a Siege Assault Vanguard using Codex Space Marines. I'm including my Leviathan, a Whirlwind for the Relic Tax, lots of dreads and two squads of terminators. No CP to play with at all, really and I'm not sure if it'd work well but it's a list that has been built using logic to a specific purpose.

In short, play bigger games or build more themed lists.

I play admech and have somewhat similar issues. So far, I've prefered the look of the 'subpar' variants of models.

Our ironstriders/dragoons (the chicken-walkers) are generally better as dragoons(the melee guys). If made as ironstriders, they're better as the lascannon version. I prefer the look of the autocannon variant - it just looks better than the stubby lascannons on the other.

Our castellan robots shooty variant is really powerful and becomes stupid when used with wrath-of-mars stragem. Unfortunately, it looks stupid with gun-hands. So I use the fist variants.

Luckily, just building what I liked the look of paid off when i built all my infantry as rangers instead of vanguard. Chapter Approved reduced both version's cost by 1 - which made the rangers more spamable.

You say you like warriors and venoms and don't like wyches or succubus much. Just take warriors and archons instead for the cp. To fill a battalion it only takes 52 more points than with wyches and succubi.

It's never really a "struggle" for me. I always take whatever I want in list, and in doing so try and learn how to make it work properly. Does it always work out? Nope. But when it doesn't I learn more about my army and how it functions making me a better player.

Basically, I experiment heavily in how I play a list based on what neat thing I've spotted this week.

My bigger problem is keeping myself motivated to paint a new army when it's not ready for games yet due to being unpainted. That makes it harder to get new stuff on the table since I'm forcing myself to only play with painted models anymore.

Look at my avatar image and ask me that question again.

Of course I do. There's some models I've used that are objectively kind of useless.

I won't lie, when it comes to 40k I'm all about the toys first, game's just something to do other than look at them.

I honestly have bought models and build my forces around them and lost A LOT.

So, yeah... there's my favorites. Fortunately, Kill-Team is a bit rewarding with the things I just so happen to think are cool.

I love Land Raiders, Land Speeders and Assault Marines, but they sure don't show up in any competetive lists.

One of the issues I have with higher points 40k is the more you can take, the less you are forced to make choices and build your force a certain way. My ideal 40k game is 1k-1500 points, anything past that is too big, and takes too long to play. I started thinking about it and realized 40k might just not be for me and got into necromunda and titanicus instead.

 Thargrim wrote:
One of the issues I have with higher points 40k is the more you can take, the less you are forced to make choices and build your force a certain way. My ideal 40k game is 1k-1500 points, anything past that is too big, and takes too long to play. I started thinking about it and realized 40k might just not be for me and got into necromunda and titanicus instead.

I felt this way for quite a while, and what you're saying is pretty common in regular 'Go to the FLGS and play with someone on weekends' type gaming. I know it's not always an option for everyone, but establishing a private gaming club really did wonders for my gaming experience.

At first we played just like we did at the FLGS, which was cool and all for a bit but after we learned how to be competitive... it just turned into an arms race and the same-old song and dance every weekend.

Then we started looking at Narrative play, which just doesn't have the initial appeal to some, but we talked it over and established an actual Narrative Campaign. We made it pretty clear that the campaign was all about bringing fluff armies that are within the scope of reason- and you must play ONE army (with exceptions for things like Knights, Custodes, and the obvious stuff that isn't an 'army'). We sat down and said, "this is to play with all the toys that you normally see in 40k fiction, the basic stuff".

If you are expecting me to say it was perfect, it sure wasn't. We ran into a few problems but learned from it.

Now we're doing it again, but making Kill-Team a part of the campaign- with KT matches having some degree of bonus or disadvantage that carries over into the regular 40k games (and vice versa). We're going as far as to bring in the guy that's a really good GM for RPG's to write us up this setting, establish who is playing what army, and stick to the 'fluff' concept of army-building.

Give it a try, you may like it.

 Thargrim wrote:
One of the issues I have with higher points 40k is the more you can take, the less you are forced to make choices and build your force a certain way. My ideal 40k game is 1k-1500 points, anything past that is too big, and takes too long to play. I started thinking about it and realized 40k might just not be for me and got into necromunda and titanicus instead.

Similar thinking for me - if you can put everything into your list, it takes away the challenge (and makes the game take excessively long IMO). Having to decide between including one unit or the other is something every battle commander has had to deal with at some point. Personally, I think that 1,250 points is more than enough for decent games of 40K.

I can sort of relate. I had a bunch of CSM and I was gonna go Black Legion but my heart wasn't in it and the project languished. I recently said feth it and decided to go World Eaters instead!

Those models are almost done painting now and I'm thinking about basing and the next purchases! It really helps to love the army you're building.

 darkcloak wrote:
I can sort of relate. I had a bunch of CSM and I was gonna go Black Legion but my heart wasn't in it and the project languished. I recently said feth it and decided to go World Eaters instead!

Likewise in 7th Edition with Alpha Legion.

All the cool models I worked to personalize, tweak and make my own vision of Alpha Legion...

...and absolutely none of them actually viable in any list. Because Formations hated fun models, I think.

Maybe you could play 30k with that army? I am looking into that right now as a way to build a loyalist Marine army. Only trouble is I like WE too much and I'm afraid the same thing will happen to my 30k project! Like here is my Imperial Fists 30k army, oh wait no, they're World Eaters...

 darkcloak wrote:
Maybe you could play 30k with that army? I am looking into that right now as a way to build a loyalist Marine army. Only trouble is I like WE too much and I'm afraid the same thing will happen to my 30k project! Like here is my Imperial Fists 30k army, oh wait no, they're World Eaters...

I could, and have a lot of Heresy stuff for that reason- that's what I bought them for. It is Mark IV and all kinds of stuff from 30k. But I've just put them away to play elsewhere in the future. I don't really like the 30k crowd here, they're a bit... picky, if I'm being honest. Wasn't a pleasant experience having their critique on my lack of squad markings and stuff. After kind of being blown off because I was playing an army that wasn't completely finished being painted, I just made it my 40k Army.

Yeah 30k does seem to have that historical bent to it, but like 40k you just have to find a good group. I've never called anyone out on squad markings but I know I love doing those sorts of details on my own projects.

 darkcloak wrote:
Yeah 30k does seem to have that historical bent to it, but like 40k you just have to find a good group. I've never called anyone out on squad markings but I know I love doing those sorts of details on my own projects.

Yeah. And a lot of those guys I met were considerably younger than I, with rather wealthy and successful families- not that it's bad, but they just had a lot more time and disposable income than I do with a full-time job. I think a good part of the hassle might have been my inability to play on nights where I have to work the next day.

The Legion's sitting securely in a box, covered up. So who knows, maybe some day I'll get to use them.

...or all the bits and unassembled models are gonna be worth a fortune if Forge World keeps doing LCTB...

I've already adopted over a few as Relics in my other 2 Astartes Armies, but replaced them in the box of 30k stuff. I could either build them one day, or just maybe find someone who really wants this stuff when it's not available and hook that guy up for a good price.

I will say that after talking to a lot of Eurobuddies that it's FAR more popular there than it is in the US. A lot of FLGS's tend to get grumpy about people trying to play 30k on their tables.

 darkcloak wrote:
Yeah 30k does seem to have that historical bent to it, but like 40k you just have to find a good group. I've never called anyone out on squad markings but I know I love doing those sorts of details on my own projects.

I do squadron marking on my 40k stuff. And on my DZC stuff. I don't mark my guardsmen, because when I'm putting out 120 dudes, the last thing I'm going to be doing if finding 10 matching dudes.

However, I did re-mark my Leman Russes as tank commanders with the red, yellow, and blue diamonds. There's some parts of their full tactical marking set missing, but I like having the little identifiers even if it isn't perfectly historical.

I have never played a tournament game. More of a beer and pretzels and have a laugh player myself. In general, I take the models I like. Sometimes I win. Often I don't, but we both have a good time.

Winning is fun, but fun beats winning. Silly stories and episodes feed that flame often.