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I find the rules around terrain very vague in 40k sometimes. One thing that came up in a game last night was can knights move into ruins (there was an objective in the middle of one)? And to broaden that discussion how about woods and moving over low fences barricades etc. In the rules under obstacles it states titanic models can move over obstacles. The examples they give are tank traps and razor wire. How does a very low wall relate to this and moving a knight over it? Game last night I deployed my knight in a ruin with a probably a 1 inch high wall in front. Discussion was could I just walk over it or did I have to go around it...

 Peoples Champ wrote:
I find the rules around terrain very vague in 40k sometimes. One thing that came up in a game last night was can knights move into ruins (there was an objective in the middle of one)? And to broaden that discussion how about woods and moving over low fences barricades etc. In the rules under obstacles it states titanic models can move over obstacles. The examples they give are tank traps and razor wire. How does a very low wall relate to this and moving a knight over it? Game last night I deployed my knight in a ruin with a probably a 1 inch high wall in front. Discussion was could I just walk over it or did I have to go around it...

The Core 40k Terrain rules are extremely lacking.

A Knight can go onto the ground floor of a ruin. If it can't fit where it wants to go, you can invoke Wobbly Model Syndrome, or agree pre-game it can't physically fit in some places.

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or
less than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.

Unless you agree to house rule it a knight has to move along the "surface" of the obstacle. If there is a small wall which is 1" high and 0,5" wide the knight would have to subtract 2,5" from its movement to move over it. HIWPI, anything that is lower than 2" would be ignored, because the knight would simply step over it with his huge legs. He wouldnt have to climb over it like an infantry model would have to. Use some common sense until GW comes up with decent terrain rules, which will probably not happen anytime soon.

Technically, you could place a kniggt on it's side and roll around an obstacle like a wheel, loosing less movement distance. You could also charge 2d floors of ruins without spending cp this way.

Right

 Peoples Champ wrote:
I find the rules around terrain very vague in 40k sometimes. One thing that came up in a game last night was can knights move into ruins (there was an objective in the middle of one)? And to broaden that discussion how about woods and moving over low fences barricades etc. In the rules under obstacles it states titanic models can move over obstacles. The examples they give are tank traps and razor wire. How does a very low wall relate to this and moving a knight over it? Game last night I deployed my knight in a ruin with a probably a 1 inch high wall in front. Discussion was could I just walk over it or did I have to go around it...

Agree with your opponent pre-game. The terrain rules are open enough for you to do what seems fun. Don’t leave it until a mid game argument.

 koooaei wrote:
Technically, you could place a kniggt on it's side and roll around an obstacle like a wheel, loosing less movement distance. You could also charge 2d floors of ruins without spending cp this way.

Just as soon as you find a rule that gives you permission to have the knight on its side instead of having the base operating as a base (on the ground).

It's really imperative to clear this up with your opponent ahead of time, since the standard terrain rules don't offer much clarity.

 doctortom wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Technically, you could place a kniggt on it's side and roll around an obstacle like a wheel, loosing less movement distance. You could also charge 2d floors of ruins without spending cp this way.

Just as soon as you find a rule that gives you permission to have the knight on its side instead of having the base operating as a base (on the ground).

With the base on the side its still on the ground. Its a TFG move, but its legal. There is no rule how a model has to be oriented.

 p5freak wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Technically, you could place a kniggt on it's side and roll around an obstacle like a wheel, loosing less movement distance. You could also charge 2d floors of ruins without spending cp this way.

Just as soon as you find a rule that gives you permission to have the knight on its side instead of having the base operating as a base (on the ground).

With the base on the side its still on the ground. Its a TFG move, but its legal. There is no rule how a model has to be oriented.

Good luck finding anyone who’ll permit it. Consign it to the “well, technically” bin and play like a reasonable being.

 doctortom wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Technically, you could place a kniggt on it's side and roll around an obstacle like a wheel, loosing less movement distance. You could also charge 2d floors of ruins without spending cp this way.

Just as soon as you find a rule that gives you permission to have the knight on its side instead of having the base operating as a base (on the ground).

There is no rule that prohibits doing it. You don't even need wobbly model syndrome as it's very stable this way.

Being reasonable has nothing to do with the rules. They easilly allow a rhino charge and participate in mellee with units on a 2-d floor because it has no base. While a dreadnaught or a gorkanaught can't do it because it has a base.

As I said, you can talk it up online all you want but let me know if you find an opponent who will let you. A game is about more than just the rules.

If we’re playing “nothing says I can’t” rules then nothing says I can’t drop rocks on your models mid-game, or flip the table, or throw your models one by one out of the window. The assumption is that bases are flat on the deck, go at the bottom, and your Knight won’t suddenly start breakdancing. The rules don’t mention it because do they reeeeally have to?

And now you’ve made me sound like BCB so I’ll go paint my T20 Conscripts...

This isn't RAW-necessary, not even RAI-necessary, it's just bloody common sense that model bases have to be flat on the table (within reason obviously, if there's an small obstacle or incline preventing it going flat then just get it as flat as possible). BCB and P5 are probably going to jump in and demand a citation on this, but just use your common sense here.

 koooaei wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Technically, you could place a kniggt on it's side and roll around an obstacle like a wheel, loosing less movement distance. You could also charge 2d floors of ruins without spending cp this way.

Just as soon as you find a rule that gives you permission to have the knight on its side instead of having the base operating as a base (on the ground).

There is no rule that prohibits doing it. You don't even need wobbly model syndrome as it's very stable this way.

Being reasonable has nothing to do with the rules. They easilly allow a rhino charge and participate in mellee with units on a 2-d floor because it has no base. While a dreadnaught or a gorkanaught can't do it because it has a base.

So I presume you are OK with me using rocks from beach as models? After all nothing says I can't...

Or epic models if you insist on looking like them. Tiny little ig guys and baneblades and shadowswords. They are even GW models! And nothing in rules says I have to use the official 40k models. Nothing even specifies size! Hey there seems to be guy on painting section planning to use AT warlord for 40k Same thing. Though I wouldn't be silly enough to use warlord as that's autolose model but trio of shadowswords? Oh yeah. Lot cheaper moneywise to 40k scaled and so tiny easy to hide while still being good in game(unlike warlord). Oooo yea!

(hint: 40k isn't prohibitibe game but permissive. You can do what you are ALLOWED to do. Not what you aren't PREVENTED to do)

tneva82 wrote:

So I presume you are OK with me using rocks from beach as models? After all nothing says I can't...

Actually there is "The core rules on these pages contain the foundation for playing games of Warhammer 40,000 with your Citadel Miniatures collection"

"rocks from beach" are not Citadel Miniatures...

tneva82 wrote:


(hint: 40k isn't prohibitibe game but permissive. You can do what you are ALLOWED to do. Not what you aren't PREVENTED to do)

And nothing in the rules specifically allow you to set your models on their bases...

 Valkyrie wrote:
This isn't RAW-necessary, not even RAI-necessary, it's just bloody common sense that model bases have to be flat on the table (within reason obviously, if there's an small obstacle or incline preventing it going flat then just get it as flat as possible). BCB and P5 are probably going to jump in and demand a citation on this, but just use your common sense here.

It's also common sense to apply modifiers before re-rolls, and look where we are now.

Why do you even ask rules questions. Just use common sense then. Forget about ymdc.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
This isn't RAW-necessary, not even RAI-necessary, it's just bloody common sense that model bases have to be flat on the table (within reason obviously, if there's an small obstacle or incline preventing it going flat then just get it as flat as possible). BCB and P5 are probably going to jump in and demand a citation on this, but just use your common sense here.

It's also common sense to apply modifiers before re-rolls, and look where we are now.

It is in one way, but that would make re-rolls more powerful the more negative modifiers you have. It actually makes perfect sense to do it the way they've decided. I know you're our resident contrarian, but even you know this.

Are you equating cartwheeling Knights to a maths decision in your usual "post simply to disagree" way? Or do you believe cartwheeling Knights should be allowed?

Make a decision, don't sit on a fence... tell me if you'd allow cartwheeling models, upside-down models, etc.

 DeathReaper wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

So I presume you are OK with me using rocks from beach as models? After all nothing says I can't...

Actually there is "The core rules on these pages contain the foundation for playing games of Warhammer 40,000 with your Citadel Miniatures collection"

"rocks from beach" are not Citadel Miniatures...

tneva82 wrote:


(hint: 40k isn't prohibitibe game but permissive. You can do what you are ALLOWED to do. Not what you aren't PREVENTED to do)

And nothing in the rules specifically allow you to set your models on their bases...

Okay so I just use any random citadel miniature. Say hello to my IG army with epic models!

Or ork army with official grots and then epic orks. They are so tiny the grot bases will block LOS! Yey! And being so tiny it's easy to get tons of them within 1" of enemy while reversedly enemy will have have hard bringing all his troops on bear. As there's no more templates no more!

MASTERPLAN! I will go and dominate tournaments! After all you can do whatever isn't prohibited right?

tneva82 wrote:
Okay so I just use any random citadel miniature. Say hello to my IG army with epic models!

Or ork army with official grots and then epic orks. They are so tiny the grot bases will block LOS! Yey! And being so tiny it's easy to get tons of them within 1" of enemy while reversedly enemy will have have hard bringing all his troops on bear. As there's no more templates no more!

MASTERPLAN! I will go and dominate tournaments! After all you can do whatever isn't prohibited right?

Perfectly legal and acceptable. Not sure why you think this is a massive "gotcha". Keep in mind Tournaments often have their own bizarre house rules, so you need to clear it with the TO first.

It’s not a “bizarre house rule” to not allow Epic minis in 40K.

I would love to see you take a tiny Epic models army to a tourney and whinge and complain when not allowed to take part that they were using “bizarre house rules”, BCB. I imagine even your 100% RAW principles don’t extend as far as trying that.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not a “bizarre house rule” to not allow Epic minis in 40K.

I would love to see you take a tiny Epic models army to a tourney and whinge and complain when not allowed to take part that they were using “bizarre house rules”, BCB. I imagine even your 100% RAW principles don’t extend as far as trying that.

Like I said, the only restriction in the rulebook regarding what miniatures can represent what datasheet is that they have to be Citadel Miniatures.

BRB Page 176 wrote: The core rules on these pages contain everything you need to know in order to use your Citadel Miniatures collection to wage glorious battle across the war-torn galaxy.

Unless I am mistaken, Epic 40,000 miniatures were made by Citadel, thus may be used in the 8th edition of Warhammer 40,000 to represent a unit's datasheet.

As my signature disclaims, My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. The rules allow you to use Citadel Miniatures, and do not require you to use the "correct" miniatures to represent a datasheet. Therefore it's perfectly legal to use Epic 40,000 Leman Russ models to represent Gretchin, for example.

But are GW models Citadel Miniatures or GamesWorkshop Miniatures?
I know forgework models actually come in citadel miniatures boxes, so is 40K actually only RAW forgeworld only? That would be hilarious.

Ice_can wrote:
But are GW models Citadel Miniatures or GamesWorkshop Miniatures?

It literally says on the boxes Citadel Miniatures

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
But are GW models Citadel Miniatures or GamesWorkshop Miniatures?

It literally says on the boxes Citadel Miniatures

Been a while since I bought non forgeworld stuff.

How we got from a sensible discussion to BCB defending his inalienable RAW right to use Epic miniatures in 40K I’ll never know (make sure you add it to your sig). Well done, dear, you’re very clever, now do stop derailing threads darling.

I’ll carry on with my “bizarrely house-ruled” games of 40K using 40K miniatures where the base goes at the bottom and Knights don’t do cartwheels.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’ll carry on with my “bizarrely house-ruled” games of 40K using 40K miniatures where the base goes at the bottom and Knights don’t do cartwheels.

Amen. Good thing I don't ever have to play with certain people.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
How we got from a sensible discussion to BCB defending his inalienable RAW right to use Epic miniatures in 40K I’ll never know (make sure you add it to your sig). Well done, dear, you’re very clever, now do stop derailing threads darling.

I’ll carry on with my “bizarrely house-ruled” games of 40K using 40K miniatures where the base goes at the bottom and Knights don’t do cartwheels.

You mean you wouldn't glue the Knight's base to the top of his head? That would make it interesting for ranges for assaults and shooting...

No no, you glue the base to a hand, and use it as a shield and LOS blocker. Helps you to charge on first and second floor as well

 p5freak wrote:
No no, you glue the base to a hand, and use it as a shield and LOS blocker. Helps you to charge on first and second floor as well

Nothing says the base has to be glued to the model! Add magnets all over and attach wherever is more convenient! Attach it to other models! The rules don’t care about bases so this interpretation is RAW! By the way my Epic Squat is a Titan!