Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, I think I know the answer to this but wanted to be sure. When pinwashing models (e.g between the armour panels on marines) I currently use oil washes after a gloss varnish. I have heard people raving about enamel pin washes from AK Interactive but in all the descriptions of their use I can’t find out whether you also need to gloss varnish before using them. I presume you do as you can clean them up with white spirit like an oil wash.

If that is the case I will stick with oil washes. If they can be used without then I will definitely get some. I’d love the time saving aspect and avoiding the minor loss of detail from gloss varnish (not to mention cleaning out the airbrush)

Yes you do.

Enamel washes tend to have very high flow, (more so even than oils) and dry 'hard' (into sharper gradients) and faster than oils. Otherwise handling is fairly similar.

I've also heard great things about those products though. I think a mate of mines got some, I'll grill him on Friday.

winterdyne wrote:
Yes you do.

No, you don't.

It can help when it comes to removing them, but it's definitely not necessary.

I reckon we'll disagree there, mate, so I'll rephrase:

In my opinion, you definitely should varnish, in order to reduce the risk of damaging your underlying paint job and to lessen surface bleed.

Not applying gloss under any high-flow wash method can result in surface bleed where the wash flows into the roughness of the the main surface (which you actually want to happen if doing filters). This can with some combinations be next to impossible to clean up.

You can also (if you're not quick or are rough with your cleanup, especially on 'overly dry' airbrushed surfaces) abrade you basecoat while cleaning up, or the thinners used can attack it.

Basically - as I said, do the same practice as with oil washes - the only real practical difference is the volatility of the medium.

You can certainly try to shortcut it, but I'd never recommend it. There's usually a reason these things become common practice.

I just read up what pin washing is, on a historical model forum

You can use gloss or a Matt varnish, it smoothed the surface for the wash to flow into crevice’s, then use thinners on a cotton swab to mop up the wash that has settled on flat surfaces

Thanks everyone. Suspected I should still gloss. I might still get some of the AK to test out though as it is pre-mixed and I always make a mess making oil washes.

WobblyGoblin wrote:
Thanks everyone. Suspected I should still gloss. I might still get some of the AK to test out though as it is pre-mixed and I always make a mess making oil washes.

Asked my mate. He says they're lovely and super-convenient.

Speaking of AK products, what’s the one that can turn any paint into a wash?

Is it a thinner

I use Ammo of Mig's washes, and I love them.

And to be honest, I never varnish my models before using them. I highly recommend to buy the odorless thinner, that you can use to correct/clean rather than white spirit. Very more comfortable in my opinion, because using white spirit at a 10 cm distance from my nose is not for me.

winterdyne wrote:
You can certainly try to shortcut it, but I'd never recommend it. There's usually a reason these things become common practice.

It's not a shortcut to do something that is unnecessary and being "common practice" doesn't mean it's right.

Odorless thinners won't "attack" dried acrylic paint as they're not nearly hot enough and if your model is primed with a good primer and if everything is dried/cured, using a cotton swab or a paintbrush to clean up dried enamel washes won't damage the paint job, even with airbrushed paint.

I've never used varnish before using pin washes for streaking. You certainly don't want to use an enamel varnish or your thinners will take it off when you smooth your streaks.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
You can certainly try to shortcut it, but I'd never recommend it. There's usually a reason these things become common practice.

It's not a shortcut to do something that is unnecessary and being "common practice" doesn't mean it's right.

Odorless thinners won't "attack" dried acrylic paint as they're not nearly hot enough and if your model is primed with a good primer and if everything is dried/cured, using a cotton swab or a paintbrush to clean up dried enamel washes won't damage the paint job, even with airbrushed paint.

This is correct. Enamels are a dissimilar medium from acrylics. While a gloss or matte coat may help with flow it is not an absolutely necessary thing and your paint job isnt going to be scrapped doing clean up on cured acrylic paint with enamel thinners. Now if you take lacquer thinner or alcohol to it thats a different story lol.

I use oil washes and AK interactive enamel washes for different things, they're both excellent. One caveat is that I almost never pin wash, I usually all-over wash and then use a q-tip or cloth and some odorless white spirits/ODM to wipe away excess.

I find the enamel washes are amazing for anything mechanical that needs a hard line wash, like panel lining in power armor or vehicles. In fact I use them BECAUSE I don't need to pin wash or use a gloss coat underneath, they wipe away with thinner/ODM leaving very, very little wash residue behind on the raised surfaces even over matte paint, and they wipe away with a crisp edge. And if you really want to remove all enamel wash residue you can dip a brush in pure ODM and remove it

Acrylic paint is not solvent with ODM and while turpentie and regular white spirits can eat through it the ODM is gentle enough that I've never had any issues with the paint lifting EXCEPT for the Warcolours One-Coat line of paint (their regular acrylic paints are fine, it's specifically the One-Coat line that will lift on the most raised edges). Only downside is that because they wipe away so clean I don't find them as useful on cloth/skin, where I want a softer transition to blend into the base color, so Oil washes are much better for organic shapes and cloth.

In discussing durability it is important to note the difference between "dry" and "cured". Acrylic paint will be dry within seconds/minutes, but won't be fully cured for days/weeks. Solvents, and even physical scrubbing from a brush, can damage un-cured paint even if they would do nothing once it is cured. Always wait at least a day or two before applying oil/enamel washes or similar effects.

 Peregrine wrote:
In discussing durability it is important to note the difference between "dry" and "cured". Acrylic paint will be dry within seconds/minutes, but won't be fully cured for days/weeks. Solvents, and even physical scrubbing from a brush, can damage un-cured paint even if they would do nothing once it is cured. Always wait at least a day or two before applying oil/enamel washes or similar effects.

Unnecessary.

If the paint is dry to the touch, you can add a dissimilar paint over top of it.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
Yes you do.

No, you don't.

It can help when it comes to removing them, but it's definitely not necessary.

You don't have to but gloss varnish will help the wash flow into recesses and minimize staining. It's an extremely good idea.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Unnecessary.

If the paint is dry to the touch, you can add a dissimilar paint over top of it.

Not true at all. That's not how acrylic paints work. The paint does not reach its full durability for hours/days after it is dry to the touch. Even painting acrylic on top of acrylic can damage the surface if you use a brush that is too stiff or scrub too much trying to spread a wash or whatever. I have personally stripped off the top layers of acrylic paint on a model while doing an oil wash, a problem that ceased to happen entirely once I started leaving models to cure for a week between steps.

Mig have a thinner that is specifically for making oil washes - I've found that to be perfectly safe to use over fresh acrylic.

Like wise for their pre-mixed enamel washes.

Follow up:
I went ahead and bought a couple of the paneliners from AK - for black camo and grey/blue camo.

I tested them and sure enough they went on fine without a varnish coat. Using Sansador (odourless thinner) for the cleanup was also fine. Certainly saved a lot of time and hassle! If I’d glossed the lines would probably have been crisper but these are fine for me.

Just a heads up though the paneliner for Black camo isn’t a dark black as I expected but appears to be a very light grey. A little odd. Will be fine if I need to line anything white I suppose...