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Some players may remember the 2nd ed original buff to power armour, but does it need it again? The board is awash with moaning players saying guard infantry are better than marines etc. and the average tactical marine isn't that prevalent. Would buffing his armour to 2+ (and terminator armour to 1+ with or without incoming damage being reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1) make much of a difference? Makes it I think twice as hard to take one down with a lasgun.

I'd be cool with it.

But the only way to implement it would be via an FAQ giving all Astartes units (both Adeptus and Heretic) a special rule that adds +1 to their Armour save rolls.

Or better yet, their armour could ignore the effects of -1AP
AP-1 counts as AP-0
AP-2 counts as AP-1
AP-3 counts as AP-2
And so one.

That way Power Armour is still 3+ against small arms, but has additional protection against the LOADS of AP-2/3, etc in the game.
And you don't have to redo hundreds of Datasheets, just add a rule to all Astartes. Done

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I like the idea of giving ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES the ability to add +1 to their saves vs AP0 and AP-1 weaponry.

 Galef wrote:
I'd be cool with it.

But the only way to implement it would be via an FAQ giving all Astartes units (both Adeptus and Heretic) a special rule that add +1 to their Armour save rolls.
Or better yet, their armour could ignore the effects of -1AP
AP-1 counts as AP-0
AP-2 counts as AP-1
AP-3 counts as AP-2

And so one. That way Power Armour is still 3+ against small arms, but has additional protection against the LOADS of AP-2/3, etc in the game.
And you don't have to redo hundreds of Datasheets, just add a rule to Astartes

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Marines still give up points way to fast to even AP-0 fire.
better to just more PA to a 2+ or GW stops overvalueing that 3+ save. As 2+ and rubrics has wierd interactions.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I like the idea of giving ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES the ability to add +1 to their saves vs AP0 and AP-1 weaponry.

Yeah, that would probably be more thematic than my suggestion.

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Why ASTARTES and not Necrons?

Bharring wrote:
Why ASTARTES and not Necrons?

Because Necrons have WBB Reanimation Protocols instead.

Yeah, Necrons are robots and do not have POWER armour, Astartes do. This could be a feature of Powered armour.

It's too late to just give all Astartes 2+ armour (with Terminators having 1+) due to all the Codices now being printed, but a blanket rule adjusting the roll could work.

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I think he is asking why not give necrons a 2+ as well. reanimation isn't a great rule at the moment and is the equivalent to the space marines atsknf. Its a special rule and shouldn't be compared to getting a 2+ save.

Theres a lot that goes into this because I know the tzeentch guys would get PO'd that marines received a similar ability to something they have, with the ignore ap -1. In addition a straight up buff like this would cause an uproar without a points cost readjustment.

3rd. it puts termies into a bigger hole. They have been struggling to find use as is but now you have gone and taken away their usefulness compared to a tac marine by making cheaper 2+ troops.

I don't think the main troops need to change I think the game needs to find a way to balance out CP vs spamming the cheaper option. With the drop of the new ork codex every list ive seen has a battalion of 2 weirdboys and 30 gretchen. buffing ork boys to try and get people to stop doing this would not be useful at all.

Well, Necrons are portrayed more as a Horde (Warriors at least) so they could use a drop in points instead. it would be better to have cheap Warriors to create sort-of horde of bodies, rather than have Immortals be direct Marine Equivalents.

Tac Marines with 2+ are still not a good as Immortals with 3+ and RP. Although this is mostly because Immortals have better stock weapons.

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 Galef wrote:
Well, Necrons are portrayed more as a Horde (Warriors at least) so they could use a drop in points instead. it would be better to have cheap Warriors to create sort-of horde of bodies, rather than have Immortals be direct Marine Equivalents.

Tac Marines with 2+ are still not a good as Immortals with 3+ and RP. Although this is mostly because Immortals have better stock weapons.

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right but the reanimation rule as a whole is terrible. It can be easily negated. to say you dont get a 2+ because of this rule doesnt actually make any sense. by the same logic tac marines shouldnt get a 2+ because they have atsknf.

not arguing about whether they should/shouldnt. im saying the original statement wasnt a fair one.

additionally to the OP. with your suggested changes what do you propose as a change in points? what is a typical 2+ costed around?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why ASTARTES and not Necrons?

Because Necrons have WBB Reanimation Protocols instead.

Ah yes because that's such s nice bonus?

While they may currently share similar points costs, Marines and Necrons have never been portrayed as equals. Marines SHOULD be better, but likewise Necrons should be cheaper.
Given Power Armour 2+ and dropping a few ppm on Necrons solves this

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why ASTARTES and not Necrons?

Because Necrons have WBB Reanimation Protocols instead.

Ah yes because that's such s nice bonus?

They also have vastly superior weaponry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why ASTARTES and not Necrons?

Because Necrons have WBB Reanimation Protocols instead.

Ah yes because that's such s nice bonus?

They also have vastly superior weaponry.

Slightly superior weaponry, at the cost of not being able to embed special weapons. Fwiw I don't think an improved save is the big fix necrons need.

The point is more the "why are Astartes the only heavy infantry that get this rule"?

Bharring wrote:
The point is more the "why are Astartes the only heavy infantry that get this rule"?

A very valid question. I would argue that it's because they:
A) Have the most army factions with heavy infantry, thus the easiest to apply a blanket change on via FAQ
B) have the most over-costed heavy infantry Troops/Elites

Necron Immortals may be heavy infantry, but Warriors haven't been for several editions.
Eldar WraithGuard already have better durabity in the form of T6 AND 3W, so a 3+ armour is good.

Also, just look at a Marine vs an Immortal. It's impressive that an Immortal has a 3+ with how spindly they are.
Marines otoh, are truly plate-armoured.

Personally, I'd like to see Immortals get T5 (or just a points drop) , Warriors drop a few points and Marines in power armour have 2+
Or some combination of BCB's and my original suggestion: Astates get +1 to their rolls against AP-1 and AP-2.
That would mean PA Marines wouldn't get a 2+ unless cover was involved, but negates AP-1 and treats AP-2 as -1 only. AP-3 and above would still act normally

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Triarch Praetorians should have a 2+ save. Change my mind.

Darsath wrote:
Triarch Praetorians should have a 2+ save. Change my mind.

Honestly I want Praetorians to get a WS/BS2+ instead to make up for them not getting any Codes or MWBD outside super specific scenarios.

Darsath wrote:
Triarch Praetorians should have a 2+ save. Change my mind.

That's a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, but let's not sideline the main topic with a discussion of necron durability. Whether or not a triarch praetorian should have a 2+ armor save doesn't really say much about whether or not a tactical or assault marine should.

Personally, I'm not opposed to power armor ignoring the first points of AP. I do, however, feel that a complete overhaul of marines featuring dramaticaly different statlines and equipment rules might be more satisfactory for those of us who want astartes to feel especially "elite." But that's probably its own topic.

 Galef wrote:
While they may currently share similar points costs, Marines and Necrons have never been portrayed as equals. Marines SHOULD be better, but likewise Necrons should be cheaper.
Given Power Armour 2+ and dropping a few ppm on Necrons solves this

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Is that ALL power armour - ie Inqusitors, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Engineseers?

if not why not?

I think it will fits better ignoring one lvl AP and give SM a FNP. Would also fits with lore.

Necrons should be away harder to kill than astartes. Just sayin.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While they may currently share similar points costs, Marines and Necrons have never been portrayed as equals. Marines SHOULD be better, but likewise Necrons should be cheaper.
Given Power Armour 2+ and dropping a few ppm on Necrons solves this

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Is that ALL power armour - ie Inqusitors, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Engineseers?

if not why not?

No, because they don't have the Black Carapace and because they don't need it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While they may currently share similar points costs, Marines and Necrons have never been portrayed as equals. Marines SHOULD be better, but likewise Necrons should be cheaper.
Given Power Armour 2+ and dropping a few ppm on Necrons solves this

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Is that ALL power armour - ie Inqusitors, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Engineseers?

if not why not?

No, because they don't have the Black Carapace and because they don't need it.

Black Carapace has Nothing to do with protection......Inquisitors (if not others like Ad Mech) have access to tech that mimics the black carpace.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While they may currently share similar points costs, Marines and Necrons have never been portrayed as equals. Marines SHOULD be better, but likewise Necrons should be cheaper.
Given Power Armour 2+ and dropping a few ppm on Necrons solves this

-

Is that ALL power armour - ie Inqusitors, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Engineseers?

if not why not?

No, because they don't have the Black Carapace and because they don't need it.

Black Carapace has Nothing to do with protection......Inquisitors (if not others like Ad Mech) have access to tech that mimics the black carpace.

Okay then, because they have the Black Carapace and a bunch of other implants and a geneticly modified biology that the other examples do not. Interfacing with their armour still lets them get more defensive utility from it than, for example, Sisters of Battle.

I think the easiest blanket change to power armour would be to reduce AP of incoming attacks by 1.

It's simple and elegant to do, and whilst it doesn't improve their survivability against lasguns, that's no different to the last edition, or the one before that - lasguns vs 3+ is still the same. lots of lasguns = dead marines.

I'd pass it on to any faction with power armour. It would give that feeling of security that power armour should give - the ability to break cover and trust in your armour to save you.

missiles, melta and lascannons will still cause a lot of damage, but medium anti-infantry will not mow them down in droves quite so much. the large amount of AP-2 multi-shot weaponry out there will suddenly be much less scary.

I think a 2+ save would be excessive and, as others have said, would make termies more redundant.

As for necrons, they aren't supposed to be harder to kill than a marine - they're just supposed to get up afterwards. There's no need to be durable if you keep coming back every time.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While they may currently share similar points costs, Marines and Necrons have never been portrayed as equals. Marines SHOULD be better, but likewise Necrons should be cheaper.
Given Power Armour 2+ and dropping a few ppm on Necrons solves this

-

Is that ALL power armour - ie Inqusitors, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Engineseers?

if not why not?

No, because they don't have the Black Carapace and because they don't need it.

Black Carapace has Nothing to do with protection......Inquisitors (if not others like Ad Mech) have access to tech that mimics the black carpace.

Okay then, because they have the Black Carapace and a bunch of other implants and a geneticly modified biology that the other examples do not. Interfacing with their armour still lets them get more defensive utility from it than, for example, Sisters of Battle.

Which is why they have toughness 4

Terminators are all about being put in situations like ship to ship boarding where they can survive a lot more than a regular marine and dish out enough damage to overwealm what is in front of them. Not open battlefield as minature tanks. Though of course that is what they are used as.

I would be quite happy with:

Uiversal rule - Astartes bolters, bolt pistols and storm bolters are -1 to armour saves due to their larger caliber rounds and superior targetting of enemy weak points using their armours auto senses.

Terminator armour - 1+ save, 5+ invulnerable, all incoming damage is reduced by one to a minimum of one (same as tough creatures like Hyrid abominations). This is the toughest armour known to man and the civilian versions are used for astroid mining and working inside plasma reactors after all...

Astartes power armour - 2+ save. The superior way it meshes with an astartes body grants incredible agility and range of motion compared to conventional powered armour and this combined with training and the black carapace means it grants a higher save than a mere human can have in it.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Terminators are all about being put in situations like ship to ship boarding where they can survive a lot more than a regular marine and dish out enough damage to overwealm what is in front of them. Not open battlefield as minature tanks. Though of course that is what they are used as.

I would be quite happy with:

Uiversal rule - Astartes bolters, bolt pistols and storm bolters are -1 to armour saves due to their larger caliber rounds and superior targetting of enemy weak points using their armours auto senses.

Terminator armour - 1+ save, 5+ invulnerable, all incoming damage is reduced by one to a minimum of one (same as tough creatures like Hyrid abominations). This is the toughest armour known to man and the civilian versions are used for astroid mining and working inside plasma reactors after all...

Astartes power armour - 2+ save. The superior way it meshes with an astartes body grants incredible agility and range of motion compared to conventional powered armour and this combined with training and the black carapace means it grants a higher save than a mere human can have in it.

No, No and No we don't need bolters to go to -1AP then a heavy bolter becomes -2AP an Assualt Cannon needs more AP and it all goes crazy. Bolters aren't realy that great in 8th I'll agree but it realy should be addressed via a special rule for bolters not just piling on AP.

If your going to make Terminators 1+ really why even bother keeping the 5++? Are yiu really facing enough AP -5 to make the additional points for that 5++ worth while?

Power armour in general sucks this edition. A 3+ isn't worth what GW points it as being worth.
The blackcarapace etc is represented by a marine being T4 to other "mortal" power armour wearers being T3 we don't need to start trying to make power armour and power armour +1 and power armour-1 power armour is power armour and just needs to be costed correctly or worth its points.