Black Templars and Librarians

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**Achetan**

So 1st I apologize about any sorta formating, this is being typed on a phone. Anyways as I'm sure we are all aware Black Templars' rules prevent them from using Librarians. While skimming through 1d4chan for some ideas I found this "Note that BLACK TEMPLARS specifically are banned from taking ADEPTUS ASTARTES PSYKERS, not all Chapters with their Tactics, so in neither case will you lose out on Librarians." Surelly this is Bull and whoever wrote it doesnt know what there talking about right? Because if they are correct it seems real strange. I'll admit I get why they might think that and would love to use it myself but it seems stupidly broken. What are your guys thoughts though? Is this legal?

**Straight_Memer**

Actually RAW I believe that a successor chapter of any sort represented by the black templar rules is in fact able to take librarians

**BaconCatBug**

Firstly, 1D4chan intentionally posts nonsense to troll people.

Secondly, you can take Librarians in any chapter that is not BLACK TEMPLARS, which means if you pick a custom chapter and for some reason use the Black Templar Chapter Tactics, you can take Librarians.

This is of course ignoring the fact that Chapter Tactics don't work on anything but their parent chapter, RaW. The Black Templars Chapter Tactic is pretty poor anyway.

**Ghaz**

The rule is quite clear. From page 131 of Codex Space Marines:

ADEPTUS ASTARTES PSYKERS cannot be drawn from the BLACK TEMPLARS Chapter.

This does not prevent you from taking ADEPTUS ASTARTES PSYERS from a different chapter (or psykers from any other IMPERIUM faction) alongside a BLACK TEMPLARS detachment.

**Gitdakka**

So if I played the fire hawks chapter, and used black templars chapter tactics to represent them, they would kot be limited from librarians?

**BaconCatBug**

Gitdakka wrote:
So if I played the fire hawks chapter, and used black templars chapter tactics to represent them, they would kot be limited from librarians?

Correct.

**Gitdakka**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
So if I played the fire hawks chapter, and used black templars chapter tactics to represent them, they would kot be limited from librarians?
Correct.

And since paintjobs have no effect on rules, I could proxy my black templars as fire hawks? Thereby bypassing the limitation?

**BaconCatBug**

Gitdakka wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
So if I played the fire hawks chapter, and used black templars chapter tactics to represent them, they would kot be limited from librarians?
Correct.

And since paintjobs have no effect on rules, I could proxy my black templars as fire hawks? Thereby bypassing the limitation?

If you no longer want to take The Emperors Champion, High Marshal Helbrecht, Chaplain Grimaldus, Cenobyte Servitors or Crusader Squads, go ahead.

**Audustum**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Firstly, 1D4chan intentionally posts nonsense to troll people.

Wherever this started, it doesn't seem to be true for their 'tactica' wiki entries. They seem as up to date and on point as just about anyone else is (albeit with more swearing, general craziness and as much a penchant for being munchkins as B&S has about being casual).

Anyway, the other posters here are correct. The limitation is only on the BLACK TEMPLARS chapter specifically. Note that if you use a successor chapter, however, you cannot take named character from Black Templars. Might be easier to just run a second detachment that has your psykers as the successor chapter.

**BaconCatBug**

The tactica threads often have gross misunderstanding of rules.

**JohnnyHell**

I'm saying nothing. Still, maybe discuss 1d4chan's relative merits in the Off Topic Forum?

**Ghaz**

Gitdakka wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Gitdakka wrote:
So if I played the fire hawks chapter, and used black templars chapter tactics to represent them, they would kot be limited from librarians?
Correct.

And since paintjobs have no effect on rules, I could proxy my black templars as fire hawks? Thereby bypassing the limitation?

Tournaments may or may not alow you to play models painted as a specific Chapter as being from another Chapter or of a Chapter of your own creation. If in doubt, consult with the tournament organizer.

**Achetan**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Firstly, 1D4chan intentionally posts nonsense to troll people.

Secondly, you can take Librarians in any chapter that is not BLACK TEMPLARS, which means if you pick a custom chapter and for some reason use the Black Templar Chapter Tactics, you can take Librarians.

This is of course ignoring the fact that Chapter Tactics don't work on anything but their parent chapter, RaW. The Black Templars Chapter Tactic is pretty poor anyway.

Okay cause the thing is I also asled my Local GW store about it and they said that yes it would prevent a succesor chapter from taking psykers.

**BaconCatBug**

Well your local GW is flat out wrong.

**Duskweaver**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Well your local GW is flat out wrong.

Doesn't the Designer's Commentary state that you can't use the 'fill-in-your-own-keyword' / 'invent-your-own-successor-chapter' facility to bypass unit-selection restrictions?

**Stux**

Achetan wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Firstly, 1D4chan intentionally posts nonsense to troll people.

Secondly, you can take Librarians in any chapter that is not BLACK TEMPLARS, which means if you pick a custom chapter and for some reason use the Black Templar Chapter Tactics, you can take Librarians.

This is of course ignoring the fact that Chapter Tactics don't work on anything but their parent chapter, RaW. The Black Templars Chapter Tactic is pretty poor anyway.

Okay cause the thing is I also asled my Local GW store about it and they said that yes it would prevent a succesor chapter from taking psykers.

GW store staff are not actually trained in game rules. I'm good friends with one. Sure they're expected to know a fair bit about the games generally, but they're just as likely to misunderstand rules or make mistakes as anyone else who plays the game.

**BaconCatBug**

Duskweaver wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Well your local GW is flat out wrong.

Doesn't the Designer's Commentary state that you can't use the 'fill-in-your-own-keyword' / 'invent-your-own-successor-chapter' facility to bypass unit-selection restrictions?

Even so, that isn't what you're doing here.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Seems kinda self defeating thing to do because like has been stated if you use this strictly RAW approach to gain black templar chapter tactics then by the same RAW logic you won't gain any benefit from said tactics because you are a black templar successor rules wise.

**Andykp**

The intent and HIWPI is pretty clear here. Don’t play black templars or successors there of if you want witches. They don’t like them. That’s their point. Playing otherwise is just a silly way of trying to gain an advantage.

**Ghaz**

Andykp wrote:
The intent and HIWPI is pretty clear here. Don’t play black templars or successors there of if you want witches. They don’t like them. That’s their point. Playing otherwise is just a silly way of trying to gain an advantage.

As shown, it is perfectly legal to have ADEPTUS ASTARTES PSYERS drawn from a Black Templars successor chapter.

**Andykp**

Yes but as that’s clearly against the intention of the rules that’s not how I would play it or how I’d expect any other reasonable person to play it. As cat bug man said above if you take tat line you then can’t have any other benefits from being a successor chapter either. RAW.

**Ghaz**

So what the rule says is against the intention of said rule? Sorry, but it's only your opinion that Black Templars successors shouldn't have Librarians, but the rules (and GW since there's been no FAQ to the contrary) say that Black Templars successors may take Librarians.

**Achetan**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Well your local GW is flat out wrong.

Doesn't the Designer's Commentary state that you can't use the 'fill-in-your-own-keyword' / 'invent-your-own-successor-chapter' facility to bypass unit-selection restrictions?
Even so, that isn't what you're doing here.

It is pretty much that though. Your just replacing black templar with succesor chapter as the key word.

**Stux**

Achetan wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Well your local GW is flat out wrong.

Doesn't the Designer's Commentary state that you can't use the 'fill-in-your-own-keyword' / 'invent-your-own-successor-chapter' facility to bypass unit-selection restrictions?
Even so, that isn't what you're doing here.

It is pretty much that though. Your just replacing black templar with succesor chapter as the key word.

You're not replacing BLACK TEMPLAR with anything, you're replacing <CHAPTER>.

**Ghaz**

From page 130 of Codex Space Marines:

All Space Marine units are drawn from a Chapter. Some datasheets specify what Chapter the unit is drawn from (e.g. Marneus Calgar has the ULTRAMARINES keyword, so is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter). If an ADEPTUS ASTARTES datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <CHAPTER> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Chapter that unit is from. You then simply replace the <CHAPTER> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Chapter.

For example, if you were to include a Captain in your army, and you decided he was from the Blood Ravens Chapter, his <CHAPTER> Faction keyword is changed to BLOOD RAVENS and his Rites of Battle ability would then say ‘You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly BLOOD RAVENS units within 6" of this model.’

BLACK TEMPLARS would not be changed in 'The Lost Librarius' rule just like ULTRAMARINES would not be changed on Marneus Calgar's datasheet.

**JNAProductions**

It's totally fine to have the reroll charges Chapter Tactic AND Librarians.

What you CANNOT do is have, say, Helbrecht in your successor, since he is EXCLUSIVELY Black Templars.

**Drager**

It's also fine to take, say, a battalion of proper Black Templars and a Supreme Command of whatever librarians you want.

**Andykp**

Ghaz wrote:
So what the rule says is against the intention of said rule? Sorry, but it's only your opinion that Black Templars successors shouldn't have Librarians, but the rules (and GW since there's been no FAQ to the contrary) say that Black Templars successors may take Librarians.

My interpretation of the intent is of course my opinion but based on sound logic. The background informs us of the intent. As with most these discussions when RAW comes up against RAI, the RAW way is people trying to gain an advantage that isn’t represented in the background and so wasn’t intended. But that’s also just my opinion. Hence why I said that’s how I would play it. And expect others to as well.

**BaconCatBug**

Andykp wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
So what the rule says is against the intention of said rule? Sorry, but it's only your opinion that Black Templars successors shouldn't have Librarians, but the rules (and GW since there's been no FAQ to the contrary) say that Black Templars successors may take Librarians.

My interpretation of the intent is of course my opinion but based on sound logic. The background informs us of the intent. As with most these discussions when RAW comes up against RAI, the RAW way is people trying to gain an advantage that isn’t represented in the background and so wasn’t intended. But that’s also just my opinion. Hence why I said that’s how I would play it. And expect others to as well.

I bet you make your opponents Space Marines roll to hit too. /s

Playing by the rules is not some sort of dirty thing like you're implying. The rule is clear, what the "intent" might be is irrelevant. The rule allows for any <CHAPTER> other than BLACK TEMPLARS to have Librarians, so if you have your Chapter as BOB'S PONY BRIGADE, you can take Librarians.

**Ghaz**

Andykp wrote:
My interpretation of the intent is of course my opinion but based on sound logic.

On that I disagree. 'Sound logic' says you play the game based on what the rules say, not how you want them to be based on your understanding of the fluff.