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One thing I see in a lot of 40k discussion is how peolle think that the people in the imperium should think rationally and reasonably, one prime example of this is people objecting to how quickly and easily everyone accepted guilleman's return.

Yeah, please remember that people in the imperium aren't like us. They may be intelligent enough and competent in ways. Hell, given how hard life in 40k is they may in many ways be more competent at surviving than most of us are today.

But they agency what we'd consider sane and reasonable. They are absolute religious fanatics. They are by and large insane bymtidaycs standards. They are religious fanatics of a level that make those anti gay funeral protestors and the guys who hijacked the planes on 911 look rational by comparison . The average imperial citizen is willing to kill someone for an opinion or view that disagrees with holy lore.

They consult a deck of tarot cards looking for advice on how to do everything from cookin g dinner to waging war. They cheer when heretics are burned alive in public. They grow up reading stories about people being massacred for a minor difference of opinion and told the peolle who killed them are saints to be worshipped and idolized.

Stories we think of as funny like the one about the DKoK shelling a rebel hive for 5 years after it bad surrendered and 3mgears after all life in it was destroyed are held up as examples of righteous behavior.

Please don't complain that people in the imperium do things we consider to be stupid or insane, they really are insane by our standards. If a general consulted a tarot for advice on a military operation he'd be relieved for incompetence . In 40k a general would be executed for heresy if he didn't consult the tarot before planning an operation.

Those peolelarenct like us in a lot of ways, we can't expect them to act in what we calla reasonable way. They shouldn't according to 40k lore.

Absolutely! It's unreasonable to assume reason on our own world, let alone the 40k universe, that in and of itself is an irrational mix of psychic magic and alternate demonic realities.

'Ordinary people' in 40K are basically mediaeval peasants and serfs. That's literally how they were described back in Rogue Trader. You're absolutely right there.

But I think you misunderstand what people mean when they say Guilliman's return was accepted too quickly and easily. It's not the ordinary people that would be the problem, but the existing power structures and vested interests. The Imperium is a massively decentralised bureaucratic mess that has essentially coasted along on its own inertia for ten millennia. The idea that one man, even a superhuman administrative genius, could fix anything just by walking in on the High Lords and saying "I'm in charge now", breaks a lot of people's willing suspension of disbelief.

Guilliman being universally accepted actually feels more like the Imperium being portrayed as too reasonable/rational/sane, rather than the opposite.

It's been implied there are factions in the imperium not happy with his return, but you need to remember guilleman has a superhuman intellect and can likely outthink most people plotting against him, not to mention anyone opposing him would have a f-ckton of angry space marines to deal with.

It seems unfair to criticise someone for reading tarot cards to see the future when they do actually predict the future.

Guilliman is accepted partly because he stands in the religious hierarchy of the Imperium like an archangel. He is more than just a tinpot tyrant or superhero.

However the people of the Imperium might accept their image/ideal of Guilliman but that does not mean they are rational in the modern 21st century sense, as they could still effectively oppose when their idealized image of Guilliman clashes with the reality. It might be difficult to voice direct opposition to a son of the God-Emperor, but Guilliman can still face "well meaning" opposition, such as Administratum bureaucrats not wanting to bother the mighty Primarch so they keep on doing things the way they have always been done. They might rationalize to themselves that Guilliman is "still adjusting to how times are different from before his stasis" as another reason. Rather than outright opposition they could also slow-walk his attempts at reform, and rationalize it as "easing the disruption by taking things slowly and cautiously".

A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference? Does he have an endgame? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still in one place long enough to enact long term reform.

Beautifully written, Iracundus. That torch analogy is awesome.

Because people are irrational and superstitious, they very well could have rejected Guilliman and even more so rejected the Primaris. Guilliman resurrecting in no small part with the help of xenos, reviled enemies that must be exterminated at all cost, could very well have led people to reject him as an imposter, a daemon possessed or a traitor. Being a Primarch makes you as likely to be adored as it's likely to have be hated. People don't like Guilliman, they like the white-washed idealised version of Guilliman they were told about him, not the real him. Nobody remembers him for who he was. If Jesus came back and started to live with us and we realised he was, by our standards, a massive mysoginist, kind off racist and completely opposed to democracy, I don't think many people would rever him and accept all of his ideas, even christians.

Technological innovation is almost sinful and heavily discouraged and controled. Primaris Marines are a change to what was widely believed as the perfect design of the Emperor. Such a change would be extraordinarly difficult to accept, especially since it was done in secret by a few individuals. The Imperium history is filled with people being executed for far less.

People in the imperium are conditioned from birth to believe "the emperor protects". So along comes black crusade #13 and SRHTF, the imperium is split in half, the astronavicom is obscured, worlds are falling by the score and all is lost.

So the common peolle will often double down on their praying, self flagellation, persecution of mutants/heretics/people who fart in public and expect the emperor to safe them.

Naturally a large percentage are going to see guilleman and the primes as proof of the emperor's beneficence. Anyone disagrees? BURN THE HERETIC!!!

People we're wanting to be saved, people we're expecting the emperor to pull thru, so RG is accepted as both.

Sure some people might see him as a threat to their power, but they need to consider if chaos overruns humanity they get et by daemons too. Also they'd have to know that if they're even suspected of resisting the emperor's fair haired boy they're going to have nearly everyone after them.

Sure someone will try something that xxxxs everything else to maintain the grimdark, but just remember that the imperium has always meant to represent the dark ages, and even the dark ages finally gave way to the rennisance.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:


Naturally a large percentage are going to see guilleman and the primes as proof of the emperor's beneficence. Anyone disagrees? BURN THE HERETIC!!!

Others will seem him a sign of everything wrong. Xenos have desecrated the corpse of Guilliman, we must kill him again so he can be pure. Guilliman is a traitor, the Emperor is showing his anger. A magos played with geneseed for 10 000 years, Primaris are the cause of all our poblem since the experimented as started as the Emperor shows his wrath, etc.

You are not wrong, but hte opposite is just as possible if not even more in my opinion.

People in the Imperium are not necessarily that different from us... nor are we necessarily that different from medieval serfs. We have better access to resources and information, but that doesn't seem to make us all that much less irrational, superstitious or credulous. A polished smile and a few choice platitudes is quite enough to sway millions.

epronovost wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:


Naturally a large percentage are going to see guilleman and the primes as proof of the emperor's beneficence. Anyone disagrees? BURN THE HERETIC!!!

Others will seem him a sign of everything wrong. Xenos have desecrated the corpse of Guilliman, we must kill him again so he can be pure. Guilliman is a traitor, the Emperor is showing his anger. A magos played with geneseed for 10 000 years, Primaris are the cause of all our poblem since the experimented as started as the Emperor shows his wrath, etc.

You are not wrong, but hte opposite is just as possible if not even more in my opinion.

You make good points and I don't disagree at all, but again I think a lot of peolle will believe in him due to the want, the need, even, to have hope that a savior has finally been delivered unto them. "I want to believe. " will be a human thing even 38, 000 years from now...

epronovost wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:


Naturally a large percentage are going to see guilleman and the primes as proof of the emperor's beneficence. Anyone disagrees? BURN THE HERETIC!!!

Others will seem him a sign of everything wrong. Xenos have desecrated the corpse of Guilliman, we must kill him again so he can be pure. Guilliman is a traitor, the Emperor is showing his anger. A magos played with geneseed for 10 000 years, Primaris are the cause of all our poblem since the experimented as started as the Emperor shows his wrath, etc.

You are not wrong, but hte opposite is just as possible if not even more in my opinion.

how many people actually know that?

epronovost wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:


Naturally a large percentage are going to see guilleman and the primes as proof of the emperor's beneficence. Anyone disagrees? BURN THE HERETIC!!!

Others will seem him a sign of everything wrong. Xenos have desecrated the corpse of Guilliman

The six people who know this are all in favour of it.

I wonder if guilleman's experience with the eldar will soften his views on the Imoeriumcs xenocidal policies any?

 Luciferian wrote:
People in the Imperium are not necessarily that different from us... nor are we necessarily that different from medieval serfs. We have better access to resources and information, but that doesn't seem to make us all that much less irrational, superstitious or credulous. A polished smile and a few choice platitudes is quite enough to sway millions.

True witness Reagan,Clinton,Obama and to a lesser extent Trump.

Charisma and the ability to make people believe in you is a powerful thing.

epronovost wrote:Because people are irrational and superstitious, they very well could have rejected Guilliman and even more so rejected the Primaris.

When one of your divine pantheon, a being which is said to literally radiate auras of power and divinity (Horus Heresy books gives us this impression of the Primarchs on mortals), comes, with the support of some of the most powerful organisations in the Imperium, and comes offering a whole new army to defend your worlds with, who would say no to that?

The irrationality of the Imperium is because they are infatuated with their religious beliefs, not in spite of it.

Guilliman resurrecting in no small part with the help of xenos, reviled enemies that must be exterminated at all cost, could very well have led people to reject him as an imposter, a daemon possessed or a traitor.

And who else knows about that, who wasn't there when it happened?

Because even the people who were there, and some of these people were the most likely to have a hatred to xeno-witchcraft (Greyfax, Celestine, Calgar), have no issues with Guilliman. So, great, yeah, a HLOT *might* have had an issue with this - if only he knew.

We know, from an out-of universe perspective, but most people probably have no idea.

Being a Primarch makes you as likely to be adored as it's likely to have be hated. People don't like Guilliman, they like the white-washed idealised version of Guilliman they were told about him, not the real him. Nobody remembers him for who he was. If Jesus came back and started to live with us and we realised he was, by our standards, a massive mysoginist, kind off racist and completely opposed to democracy, I don't think many people would rever him and accept all of his ideas, even christians.

But most of Guilliman's changes have been noticeably effective. He is incredibly popular with the guardsmen and civilians of the Imperium (for being a Primarch and son of the Emperor), has greatly helped the Administratum, hesitantly supports the Ecclesiarchy, has reinforced and aided the Space Marines, given Mars more power and freedom and still preventing Cawl from taking control, giving him political allies - honestly, the only people who Guilliman threatens are the HLOT, who frankly are just afraid of losing power, not because of a disagreement in Guilliman's policy.

Technological innovation is almost sinful and heavily discouraged and controled. Primaris Marines are a change to what was widely believed as the perfect design of the Emperor. Such a change would be extraordinarly difficult to accept, especially since it was done in secret by a few individuals. The Imperium history is filled with people being executed for far less.

And those people didn't have the backing of the Custodes. When you pretty much held the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy, are the only Primarch around, and have the blessing of at least 1 Inquisitor, a Living Saint, and entire First Founding Chapter (at least) and the Grey Knights, and the Adeptus Custodes, you can kinda get away with a lot of things.

epronovost wrote:Others will seem him a sign of everything wrong. Xenos have desecrated the corpse of Guilliman, we must kill him again so he can be pure.

And people know that how?

Guilliman is a traitor, the Emperor is showing his anger. A magos played with geneseed for 10 000 years, Primaris are the cause of all our poblem since the experimented as started as the Emperor shows his wrath, etc.

But what is the Emperor's wrath? And would you really presume to know the Emperor's intentions despite the Custodes (the official voice of the Emperor) saying otherwise.

godking wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
People in the Imperium are not necessarily that different from us... nor are we necessarily that different from medieval serfs. We have better access to resources and information, but that doesn't seem to make us all that much less irrational, superstitious or credulous. A polished smile and a few choice platitudes is quite enough to sway millions.

True witness Reagan,Clinton,Obama and to a lesser extent Trump.

Charisma and the ability to make people belive in you is a powerful thing.

1 Country that is about influence and money, not about what is good for a Nation. Not really like the Imperium...oh wait, good example

godking wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
People in the Imperium are not necessarily that different from us... nor are we necessarily that different from medieval serfs. We have better access to resources and information, but that doesn't seem to make us all that much less irrational, superstitious or credulous. A polished smile and a few choice platitudes is quite enough to sway millions.

True witness Reagan,Clinton,Obama and to a lesser extent Trump.

Charisma and the ability to make people belive in you is a powerful thing.

Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Ho, Lenin. All of them "great leaders" who puked on their peons/countries while having a polished smile and a gleam in their eye.

Imperial citizens don't know any different & if they did they should be purged in the name of the Emperor!

Honestly, this thread is now making me imagine a bunch of children in the imperium singing the imperial version of the British children's song " 'oo are the people in yer neighbor'ood? "

trying to imagine imperial children singing the imperium's version of that is kinda scary...