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Can you use a stratagem on a unit in reserve? The specific case I am looking at is this: taking a veteran squad in a chimera, with a platoon commander, and having them ambush. They would be using Emperor's Blade, but that is not relevant. What I want to do is use the Mobile Command Vehicle stratagem on the chimera, so that the commander can order without having to disembark. Mobile Command is used at the start of the turn, when the Chimera would still be in reserve.

Is that a legal move? I know there are some restrictions on interaction with reserve units. Or is it one of those situations where the current turn's player can choose the order of events to get it to work?

 Trickstick wrote:
Can you use a stratagem on a unit in reserve? The specific case I am looking at is this: taking a veteran squad in a chimera, with a platoon commander, and having them ambush. They would be using Emperor's Blade, but that is not relevant. What I want to do is use the Mobile Command Vehicle stratagem on the chimera, so that the commander can order without having to disembark. Mobile Command is used at the start of the turn, when the Chimera would still be in reserve.

Is that a legal move? I know there are some restrictions on interaction with reserve units. Or is it one of those situations where the current turn's player can choose the order of events to get it to work?

No, you cannot. Even if you could, you can't use stratagems on a unit that is embarked.

This is proven by the wording of "The Murder Sword", which gives an explicit permission to choose a character not on the battlefield. Thus, by elimination, we can conclude that the default position is you cannot select units not on the battlefield to be affected by game rules unless otherwise explicitly stated.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Can you use a stratagem on a unit in reserve? The specific case I am looking at is this: taking a veteran squad in a chimera, with a platoon commander, and having them ambush. They would be using Emperor's Blade, but that is not relevant. What I want to do is use the Mobile Command Vehicle stratagem on the chimera, so that the commander can order without having to disembark. Mobile Command is used at the start of the turn, when the Chimera would still be in reserve.

Is that a legal move? I know there are some restrictions on interaction with reserve units. Or is it one of those situations where the current turn's player can choose the order of events to get it to work?

No, you cannot. Even if you could, you can't use stratagems on a unit that is embarked.

This is proven by the wording of "The Murder Sword", which gives an explicit permission to choose a character not on the battlefield. Thus, by elimination, we can conclude that the default position is you cannot select units not on the battlefield to be affected by game rules unless otherwise explicitly stated.

From what he said, the stratagem he wanted to use would have been used on the Chimera, which is not embarked inside itself. You still can't use it, however, because the chimera is not on the battlefield at the time you would use the stratagem.

 doctortom wrote:
You still can't use it, however, because the chimera is not on the battlefield at the time you would use the stratagem.

Ok, makes sense. I was trying to find a way to not have to use the warlord trait to pull off an ambush strike, as that lets you order out of a chimera. Would have been nice to send a single ambush chimera and keep the warlord with the main mech force.

 Trickstick wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
You still can't use it, however, because the chimera is not on the battlefield at the time you would use the stratagem.

Ok, makes sense. I was trying to find a way to not have to use the warlord trait to pull off an ambush strike, as that lets you order out of a chimera. Would have been nice to send a single ambush chimera and keep the warlord with the main mech force.

Hang on, this one isn't nearly as clear as BCB makes it out to be. While I used to support this kind of logical inference, I haven't in awhile because GW shows they clearly do not care.

Take, for instance, the FNP of the Avatar of Khaine. It used to specifically say it worked on wounds and mortal wounds. Other FNP's did not say mortal wounds. Using BCB's logic, most FNP's didn't work on mortal wounds. Yet, GW later said "no, all FNP's work on mortal wounds". So this line of reasoning is clearly flawed.

Let's instead turn to the RAW. The BRB just says: "You can spend Command Points to use a Stratagem before or during a battle. Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce your Command Points total by the appropriate amount. If you do not have enough Command Points for a specific Stratagem, you cannot use it. Unless otherwise noted, you can use the same Stratagem multiple times during the course of the battle". Using it on a unit in reserve seems to meet all this. So let's look at the RAW of your stratagem in question.

The Stratagem says: "Choose a Chimera from your army" and it must be done "at the start of any turn".

There is no requirement anywhere that the Chimera be 'on the battlefield' and a Chimera in reserve is still a Chimera 'in your army'. Thus, all conditions are met. You can use Mobile Command Vehicle.

Where exactly is the rule about not being able to interact with things in reserve? I'm sure I saw it at some point but just can't find it at the moment.

 Trickstick wrote:
Where exactly is the rule about not being able to interact with things in reserve? I'm sure I saw it at some point but just can't find it at the moment.

Where exactly is the rule about not being able to give a stray kitten some mackrel in order to automatically pass a morale test? (This is a joke, made in good humour please don't get angry). The rules are permissive, they tell you what you CAN do. You have permission to use the stratagem on a unit, but it doesn't say you can use it on a unit not on the battlefield. Units being on the battlefield is the default existence of things and there has to be a certain level of, for lack of a better word, assumptions in order for the game to work at all. Things like "What is a dice?" or "What is a roll?" or "Can I use stratagems on units in another game or in the future?" etc.

As I pointed out, if you could use stratagems or "pick" units not on the battlefield by default when it came to rules or stratagems, there would be no need for The Murder Sword to explicitly call it out.

 Trickstick wrote:
Where exactly is the rule about not being able to interact with things in reserve? I'm sure I saw it at some point but just can't find it at the moment.

Q: If a Stratagem instructs you to select a unit from your
army at the start of the turn, can I choose one that is not yet
on the battlefield (because it was, for example, set up in a
teleportarium chamber during deployment)?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

Main rulebook FAQ, page 5.

 doctortom wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Where exactly is the rule about not being able to interact with things in reserve? I'm sure I saw it at some point but just can't find it at the moment.

Q: If a Stratagem instructs you to select a unit from your
army at the start of the turn, can I choose one that is not yet
on the battlefield (because it was, for example, set up in a
teleportarium chamber during deployment)?
A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

Main rulebook FAQ, page 5.

Unlike BCB's logic, which is contradicted by GW and unsupported in that trying to target a unit in reserves is nowhere akin to saying "what is a die", this is RAW and definitive. My previous analysis yields.

Audustum wrote:
Unlike BCB's logic, which is contradicted by GW and unsupported in that trying to target a unit in reserves is nowhere akin to saying "what is a die", this is RAW and definitive. My previous analysis yields.

But I was already preparing for my fish-assisted feline morale system! The Commissaricat will be displeased!



Well I guess that settles it. I knew there would be an FAQ somewhere.

Audustum wrote:
Unlike BCB's logic, which is contradicted by GW and unsupported in that trying to target a unit in reserves is nowhere akin to saying "what is a die", this is RAW and definitive. My previous analysis yields.

FAQs are not RaW, but they can repeat the RaW (or ignore it). Furthermore, the FAQ actually agrees with me that you can't use the stratagem on a unit not on the battlefield, so I don't know why you're trying to rile me up.

Because your previous logic had no rules basis but the other poster provided proof? Being refuted is not ‘trying to rule you up’.

What about using stratagems on units in transports? You could stretch that FAQ to apply to them but it's specifically talking about units in reserves.

Is there an FAQ specifically addressing stratagems on embarked units? I'm thinking double shooting dakka dakka Lootas in Battle Wagons.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
What about using stratagems on units in transports? You could stretch that FAQ to apply to them but it's specifically talking about units in reserves.

Is there an FAQ specifically addressing stratagems on embarked units? I'm thinking double shooting dakka dakka Lootas in Battle Wagons.

In the main rules, pg 183, it states:

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities
that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst
the unit that has the ability is embarked.

So you can't usually use stratagems on embarked troops. Several stratagems get around this. For instance, the Guard disembarking stratagems are actually targeting the transport and not the unit.
I don't know about the lootas. Are you talking about using the "more dakka" stratagem to boost their ability. That stratagem doesn't actually target them, but it does affect them. There is no specific allowance. I did find this in the Ork FAQ:

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.

But that is not actually relevant, as it is talking about the ability rolling over onto the passengers. I thought I would mention it for the sake of completeness.

If I had to decide, I would say no you can't more dakka embarked units.

It is relevant actually, the second part of the question asks about putting the strat on the embarked unit. So thanks!

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
It is relevant actually, the second part of the question asks about putting the strat on the embarked unit. So thanks!

I guess I missed that!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Unlike BCB's logic, which is contradicted by GW and unsupported in that trying to target a unit in reserves is nowhere akin to saying "what is a die", this is RAW and definitive. My previous analysis yields.

FAQs are not RaW, but they can repeat the RaW (or ignore it). Furthermore, the FAQ actually agrees with me that you can't use the stratagem on a unit not on the battlefield, so I don't know why you're trying to rile me up.

I was trying to state that you and I agree in result, but I in no way agree with how you got there. That was all.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Because your previous logic had no rules basis but the other poster provided proof? Being refuted is not ‘trying to rule you up’.

Yeah, basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Unlike BCB's logic, which is contradicted by GW and unsupported in that trying to target a unit in reserves is nowhere akin to saying "what is a die", this is RAW and definitive. My previous analysis yields.

But I was already preparing for my fish-assisted feline morale system! The Commissaricat will be displeased!

Spoiler:

Well I guess that settles it. I knew there would be an FAQ somewhere.

Now THAT is something I'd like to see at the table!