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Hi all

This post does not apply to All Primaris Chapters, nor to those players who disregard or don't care about fluff and background, and those who play only to the rules for the miniatures and nothing else applies.

To the rest, those who love lore, fluff and background... and those who get frustrated by the contradictions of GW, FW, Black Library, and others who contribute... and those that crave for a complete (as possible) answer to the "Core" of known composition and formation of a SM Chapter which has been altered thanks to 8ed and the introduction of Primaris SMs... This is a discussion for you.

Mik


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The composition and integration question must be addressed on multiple levels.

Squad level and Demi Company level… do not apply because the are inherently mixed function and can integrate Primaris in a plausible manner… reinforcements or replacements due to causalities, and additional elements due to tactical requirements (eg. kill team, strike force or battle group).

Company level and multiple companies level... this is where it gets interesting.

Mik




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You must consider the Chapter organisation as a whole to be able to fluff justify a composition of greater than a Company... where do they fit within a Chapter, where did they come from, why are they there, how does it fit into the known background or your background.

These ideas relate to story and fluff and not to rules, they do not attempt or suggest any changes to cannon information, but do attempt to offer options for situations that are not addressed.

I have a very large Ultramarine force and I wanted to integrate Primaris into it with a reasonable background that provides clarity... It is easily said just add a squad here and a squad there, but it doesn't provide a suitable reason other than just is... This is my version.

Mik

The Vanguard Space Marines mini-codex has a few interesting snippets:

Battle-brothers from a Chapter's Reserve Companies may be temporarily seconded to the foremost Battle Companies as Vanguard Space Marines, taking on the colours and markings of their new company for the duration of their service.

In accordance with those recent amendments to the Codex Astartes, the 10th Company of each Chapter should maintain a permanent complement of one hundred Vanguard Space Marines under the command of a Captain - know as the Master of Reconnaissance - and supported by two Lieutenants.

My Ultramarine force composition...

1st Company... 50 Terminators

Battle Companies... 1x Complete 100 man, plus elements of 2 more (demi company size)

Reserve Companies... Tactical elements (demi company size) and lots of land speeders

!0th Company... Scout elements and LR Storms

Armoury... 5x Land Raiders, 10x Predators, 6x Vindicators, 5x Whirlwinds, 11x Dreadnoughts

Primaris additions from Dark Imperium (x4) and Shadowspear (x4) plus many additional multi pose kits, and 4x Redemptors.

Mik

On a company level, Primaris are integrated both as entire new companies (I think the Ultramarines are up to 20 now) and as individual squads withing existing squads (the breakdown of the Ultramarines 2nd company has Tactical and Intercessor, Assault and Inceptor and Devastator and Agressor squads, as well as one standard and one Primaris lieutenant). I don't think we've seen that detail of breakdown of Primaris in other Chapters, but it's probably broadly the same. The Dark Angels are keeping them away from the Deathwing, the Space Wolves take them on merit, and at least one - Haldor Icepelt - has managed to make it into Ragnar's Wolf Guard.

I think adding entire new Primaris companies was a one-time thing, due to the large influx of new recruits from the Unnumbered Sons. Future Primaris will probably be added to existing Chapters in the same way as standard Space Marine neophytes are.

From a narrative point of view, I don't see any reason why Primaris couldn't be integrated within squads; Deathwatch Kill Teams or Space Wolves Wolf Guard packs are the most obvious units to do this, but Company Command Squads, Sternguard and Vanguard Squads are also likely, IMO, in more Codex-compliant Chapters. I don't see it happening in the games because it's fiddly to do.

The introduction of 8ed, Primaris, the rebirth of Gulliman, and release of Shadowspear have led to the following new conditions to consider...

ALL 10 man squads can form into 5 man Combat squads

Introduction by DI of 6 man squads, so 3 man combat squads

Introduction by SS of 3 man specialist squads

Introduction by SS of the Vanguard formation that can be created from any company, multiple times if required

Introduction by SS of a permanent Vanguard Company within 10th Company... a free 11th Company

All great information that has allowed me to integrate my Primaris component.

Mik


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the given fluff regarding Primaris, I observe the creation of Strike Force compositions of adding whatever resources required... and not the creation of new Company formations.

The SM Codex does indeed show a 2nd Company formation... at a set time in conflict... not as a standard formation , not THE 2nd Company... a Strike Force centering on 2nd Company elements and larger than a Company.

I believe this paragraph leads Gullimans new Codex to relate Black Templars methodology for the formation of Crusades of whatever size as required, but adhering to his original concepts of composition by creating TEMPORARY formations that exceed know fluff sizes.

mik


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have decided to integrate my Primaris within the Reserve Companies and move my standard SMs to bolster my 2 Demi Battle Companies.

This gives me the following...

6th Company... Battleline Reserve... 6x Intercessor squads

7th Company... Battleline Reserve... 6x Intercessor Squads

8th Company... Close Support Reserve... 4x Inceptor Squads, 2x Reiver Squads

9th Company... Fire Support Reserve... 4x Hellblaster Squads, 2x Aggressor Squads

10th Company... Integrated Vanguard Company... 4x Infiltrator Squads, 2x Reiver Squads, 4x Eliminator Specialist Squads,4x Suppressor Specialist Squads

I'm in heaven coz it makes sense... 2 full Primaris Battle Company formations can be arranged from the Reserve Companies... or individual Combat Squads sent to other Companies as required.

This answers, where, why, who in my background... how about you?

Mik

Space Marines have always operated like that, though. Ad-hoc formations involving parts of one or more Companies has always been the norm. Any engagement involving a heavy deployment of armour, speeder or bike units, for example, would see elements of the 6th and 7th reserve tactical companies alongside troops from the 2nd to 5th battle companies. The only difference now is that they've said those seconded elements will take on the markings of the force they're attached to - probably because most people paint their armies like that anyway.

Combat squads - that's been part of the background since 1993, although not always in the rules.

And some of the Primaris elements of the 2nd company as shown in Codex: Space Marines are indeed proper members of the 2nd company, not just elements of the 11th through 20th companies seconded temporarily (although one Primaris squad is noted as only having transferred from another company recently - again, not a practise unique to Primaris units)

My standard SMs formation now is...

1st Company... Demi Company (Terminator)

2nd Company... Battle Company

3nd Company... Demi Battle Company

4nd Company... Demi Battle Company

5nd Company... Demi Battle Company

I now have Chapter at 70% strength

Mik

I think I'm missing the point of this post. Is it do discuss the background of how Primaris are integrated into existing Space Marine chapters, or are you looking for instructions on how to organise your collection of miniatures?

AndrewGPaul… Some truth said there mate

However, only Terminators had in their rules to split into 5 man combat squads... everyone else had understrength squads if it was less than 10 men.

1st Company comprised of up to 10 10-man squads OR up to 20 5-man combat squads

And, the reference to 20 is that the Primaris transfers were numbered up to 20 relating to up to 20 5-man combat squads... not 20 10-man squads.

Gulliman stated that additional troops could be added to a Company as required (Strike Force) and these can be marked as the main Company... its not creating new companies.

It is a game, the miniatures matter to some, the play system to others, the rules to others still... but some only collect (and some paint) while others spend all their energy in the fluff and background... in the end its a game... have fun.

I like my story

Mik




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point of the post is how CAN Primaris integrate, not how do they.

I have offered one option and justified it as a whole

GW and others have offered pieces, some contradictions, and some incomplete inconsistencies... there is NO Primaris answer, yet.

GW always provided a jigsaw of possibilities with blank pieces to create your own version WITHIN the fluff and background, over 30 years worth.

Primaris is incomplete in that respect, they have missing pieces, not blank pieces.

All in jest guys, please don't take offence

Mik

In 2nd edition, Space Marine squads were bought as a squad of 10 but could be deployed and used on the table as 2 squads of 5. It was represented in the painted models - the squad 2ic (a "veteran" or "squad leader" in Codex chapters) had a back banner and unique shoulder pad markings).

As seen here:
http://www.irondogstudios.com/images/Ultra/mek_ultra.html

I'd thought that the Ultramarines added additional squads to companies and additional companies, but I don't have the book handy to check. The Blood Angels certainly only have the ten companies, so it appears I'm havering.

"A company is traditionally organised into ten squads of ten Space Marines, each led by a Sergeant.

However, new guidelines in Guilliman’s updated Codex Astartes provide for up to twenty squads of five battle-brothers.

Furthermore, recent precepts allow for each Battle Company to be reinforced with auxiliary warriors. These additional squads are reassigned from the Reserve Companies."

"The newly rewritten Codex Astartes allows for each Battle Company to be reinforced with additional troops reassigned from the Reserve Companies.

Once attached to a Battle Company, it is standard practice for the newly joined reserve squads to take new markings corresponding to their new company, although the rapid nature of war does not always afford time for such a formality."

Taken from Codex AA 8ed

As you and I said, however, on the same page, GW refers to 10 - 20 squads multiple times... it should have said 10 squads - 20 combat squads.
Its a miracle if the reader is not confused.

Mik

 Lord Castellan Mik wrote:
As you and I said, however, on the same page, GW refers to 10 - 20 squads multiple times... it should have said 10 squads - 20 combat squads.
Its a miracle if the reader is not confused.

Mik

I don't think they mean twenty combat squads though, just up to twenty squads if those squads are at half strength of a full squad. It may be a fairly minor difference, but it would mean twenty sergeants rather than ten sergeants and ten squad leaders.

Even GW appears confused on that, since page 26 says that numbers XI+ are used for attached squads, with the 2nd company's XIth & XIIth squads on the following page being identified as being from the 6th & 8th companies respectively.

It has never been canon to number combat squads differently. Terminator squads used be 5-man and numbered I-XX but they were explicitly stated to be separate entities to the 10-man veteran squads, to quote Codex Ultramarines (which I have before me) page 25 : "The 1st Company Veterans belong to two different squads, a Terminator squad and a Veteran squad. Each type of squad has its own number."

 Gashrog wrote:
Even GW appears confused on that, since page 26 says that numbers XI+ are used for attached squads, with the 2nd company's XIth & XIIth squads on the following page being identified as being from the 6th & 8th companies respectively.

It has never been canon to number combat squads differently. Terminator squads used be 5-man and numbered I-XX but they were explicitly stated to be separate entities to the 10-man veteran squads, to quote Codex Ultramarines (which I have before me) page 25 : "The 1st Company Veterans belong to two different squads, a Terminator squad and a Veteran squad. Each type of squad has its own number."

then 5 man squads in this case are perminat squads not combat squads

Clear as mud, isn't it

DI gave us transfers for up to 20 squads and created a nightmare for background fluff junkies.

The Battle Company (whatever size) has always been the core of a Strike Force formation with a variety of squads attached from the Reserve Companies.

Codex AA 8ed indicates two major statements (relating to composition)…
All full squads can be split into half size combat squads.
Any squads attached to a Strike Force from the Reserve Companies are to be marked as squad X! onwards.

This is proven in the GW snapshot of a particular composition of 2nd Company... squad 11 and 12 are stated as being attached from Reserve Companies.

The Primaris components are shown as Combat Squad size, in a squad position... no problem, this has occurred previously (under strength squad).

The emphasis is that the additions came from the Reserve Companies... where did the Primaris squads come from.

I feel confident that it didn't happen this way...

Form up guys, there's a gap there, put a Primaris in, Next... thanks RG.

It makes sense that ALL Primaris reinforcements went into the Reserve Companies first, and then moved into empty slots and rebadged.

SS has given us a Vanguard SM formation which can be taken from any company … as shown in SS, this particular formation came from 2nd Company.

This can explain where the other half of a full squad went to (the Primaris Combat Squads shown in 2nd Company).

How you build your army, how you kit out your formation is not the debate... its only about a more likely option of where Primaris fit in the Chapter... not how you play with them.

Mik

My Salamanders are set up to be Vulkan He'stan's personal Honor guard.
Only the most Bold in their actions and tempered in their will may have the honor to join the most holy search.

The Primaris have been integrated by the Forgefather in accordance to the region of Nocturne they hail from. For non-Nocturne native born they are represented by Mt. Deathfire and the raging heart of Vulkans wrath.
Each city has a paint scheme unique and related to their unique geo/flora/fauna. Hesiod is all blinged out as the sons of the Jewel city should be. Igneans armour begins life Orange, but in the depths of the subterranean tunnels soot from their forges darkens the armour and tempers their strength in the Promethian cult. etc

Currently it consists of;
Vulkan He'stan

Hesiod: Capt on Bike, librarian on bike, Gravis Capt, 3x Primaris Lt, Primaris Ancient, Primaris Librarian, 20x MKIII Marines, 10x Intercessors, 10x Hellblasters, 3 Inceptors, Relic Contemptor, Redemptor, 2x Razorbacks, 5 Tartaros Terminators, Stormtalon,
Bike Squad w Attack Bike

Ignea: Cataphractii Capt, Capt, Chaplain, 30x MKIV Marines, 15x Intercessors, Repulsor, Contemptor, 3 Agressors

Themis: Apothecary, 5 Sternguard, Chapter Champion, 10 Reivers, Chapter Champion

Epethemis: Phobos Capt, Phobos Librarian, Phobos Lt, 5 Sniper Scouts, 3 Eliminators, 3 Suppressors, 5 ASM, Laser Destroyer Rapier

Heliosa: None have yet earned the right to join in the Forgefathers search to bring the Artefacts of Vulkan home.

Skarrok: Apothecary, Razorback, Predator

Clymene: Land Raider Helios, Damocles Command rhino, 3 Agressors, 7 company vets, Land Speeder

Mt. Deathfire: Infernus Deimos Pred

Games Workshop often create uncertainty, even after certainty... primarily for economic reasons (profit).

Retail decisions control gaming changes... they removed Squats totally from the game, they ignored the existence of Kasrkin Stormtroopers, they allow Terminators into vehicles that will not fit Primaris, to name a few.

Obviously, they created the term Combat Squad so they could sell half squads at the same price as a full squad... and it also helped the gamer to field more variety for the similar points cost, albeit more expensive to purchase... retail decisions.

Now the Primaris and Vanguard have been introduced, we have a bigger field of play... 6 man and 3 man full squads (not including older larger units like Centurions).

The composition of a Company and Chapter has tweaked many an enthusiasts thought processes... literally forever has a codex compliant chapter been clearly described in great detail by GW.

Throughout the last 30 years, we have been able to play certain ways... combat squads was one... the two halves had to be fielded at the same time, the second half was "commanded" by a 2IC, a rank that was not on the stats... it was assumed that the sergeant in the first half was commanding from afar. Now we have combat squads in a full squad slot, with a sergeant... what does the other half have for command, there still is no 2IC on the stats.

Now we assume that we can have up to 20 combat squads taking up to 20 full squad slots, each with a sergeant... this could dictate a full company of 100 (if the combat squads were 5-man) but with 20 sergeants... plus a similar sized "other half" company of 100 but no sergeants.

Obviously this is an absurd conclusion, but with present incomplete information, what are we expected to conclude.

I admit that my thought process is handicapped, I am ex military with an Armour (Recon and APC) background, I understand the theory of military formation composition and the difference between ORBAT and "boots on the ground" often controlled by the financial constraints of government budgets... not unlike GW business decisions and retail practices.

But again, this is just a game, but it doesn't automatically mean that you cannot "think"... just like in the game of chess... admittedly, some gamers do not "think"... they just play.

Fun, isn't it

Mik


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Back to Primaris

In Codex: Shadowspear (SS intro booklet), it states "all Primaris Space Marines are trained and indoctrinated in vanguard tactics..." very clear and an awesome addition to the Primaris role in the game.

It also states in the same paragraph "during their time in the Chapter's Scout Company, all Space Marines are fully trained in the use of Vanguard armour variants and associated wargear..."

Really, Mk X power armour (Phobos or otherwise) is a PRIMARIS thing... standard SMs do not fit the suit... more confusion by GW?

Further, "the 10th Company of each Chapter should maintain a permanent complement of 100 Vanguard Space Marines"... A free 11th company, truly awesome... but have you worked out a composition... I keep getting 99 or 102... why GW, why say 100.

I know I sound like I'm trying to defend myself by saying its only a game, but if I wanted to play only a game, I would play chess.

Mik

Well, 2/3 of space. marine chapters are based on he ultramarines, and so owe loyalty to guilleman. Guilleman says the primaris are kosher so they accept them.

Other chapters may bave issues with them like the black templarrs not taking psykers and having issues with the codex, but they may not take them.

Other chapters that may have been teetering on the edge of destruction would take them likely to keep the chapter alive and serving da emprah.

Disgraced chapters like the mantis warriors and lamenters might take them to prove tneir loyalty.

So, confusion aside, ignoring inconsistencies, forgetting anomalies, and not worrying about big numbers...

All Primaris reinforcements are placed into the Reserve Companies and the Vanguard Company.

A few key high flyers are made Captain, LT, Librarian, Chaplain, Apothecary, and Ancients... and are placed into Chapter and Company HQ slots.

Almost immediately, due to Indomitus Crusade and later Vigilus events... various Strike Forces are formed with Primaris elements... and various Companies are reinforced with Primaris elements.

This is the path that seems logical and workable.

From here... you can have up to 20 Squads of Standard and/or Primaris Marines in a Company with 3-man or 5-man combat squads, 6-man or 10-man full squads, or any understrength numbered squad.

And of course the Vanguard Company can have up to 100 Primaris Marines with 5-man combat squads, 10-man full squads, 3-man specialist squads, or any understrength numbered squad.

Mik

As beast_gts stated, SS also gave us...

"Battle-brothers from a Chapter's Reserve Companies may be temporarily seconded to the foremost Battle Companies as Vanguard Space Marines, taking on the colours and markings of their new company for the duration of their service."

So this means that a Vanguard detachment can be formed from a Battle Company AND can be added to a Battle Company... again, from the Reserve Companies.

Potentially an awful lot of Vanguard.

But, does the statement from SS indicating that Strike Force Shadowspear from the 2nd Company was formed FROM 2nd Company or was ADDED to 2nd Company (from the Reserve Companies)… Scores of Vanguard Strike Forces , predominantly from the Ultramarines, were sent to far flung places... again, an awful lot of Vanguard.

Mik