Sensei?

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**Delvarus Centurion**

Could the saints of the Imperium be the Sensei? I mean if its possible then either their powers are innate or they are conduits for the Emperors will, as in he powers them up with his Emperor magic so they can fly about with wings and light shinning out their arses. Is there any lore that would contradict them being sensei?

**greatbigtree**

I’m not sure if sensei still exist in the “current Cannon”.

But if they do, then sure. It’s your universe to make your own.

**Delvarus Centurion**

greatbigtree wrote:
I’m not sure if sensei still exist in the “current Cannon”.

But if they do, then sure. It’s your universe to make your own.

What do you think though, if they are still cannon, which I'm pretty sure they are as its never been counterfeited by new lore, to my knowledge that is?

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

What are sensei? I at firdt thought it was essentially a tts thing

**Delvarus Centurion**

Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
What are sensei? I at firdt thought it was essentially a tts thing

They are the Emperors offspring, it is believed by the Illuminati that they can be sacrificed to the Emperor in order to bring him back.

**AndrewGPaul**

If Sensei are still a thing in the setting* then they could be saints, I suppose. However, define "saint".

Some saints are canonised by the Ecclesiarchy; they may or may not be actually "holy" in that they're blessed by the Emperor (it might be that deceased Ecclesiarchs are routinely canonised as a matter of course, like ex-Prime Ministers getting a seat in the House of Lords). However, once canonised they can become a focus for worship and belief and become relics of power no matter their status in life.

A Living Saint is a hero of the Imperium, revived from death and imbued with miraculous powers.

If the old background about Sensei still holds, they're generally considered heretics by the Imperium at large, so are unlikely to be canonised by the authorities. And they're not (usually) miraculously revived, so they don't seem to fit the definition of a Living Saint.

I suppose a Sensei could be canonised, or even revived as a Living Saint if the Imperium at large was unaware of their true status, but I don't think we need to force the two ideas together like this.

Sensei were mentioned in the Realm of Chaos books, Slaves to Darkness and The Lost And The Damned in 1988 and 1990, and also briefly in Ian Watson's Inquisition War series published around the same time. Are they still "canon"? If you want, but you'll get a lot of blank stares when you mention them.

Lexicanum wrote:
Sensei
The Sensei are the descendants of the Emperor. Their exact nature is contradictory, but what is clear is that they are immortal - though they can be killed, they do not age.

History
To the Inquisition, particularly the Ordo Malleus, the Sensei are one of the great threats to the Imperium, the Inquisition seeing the Sensei as dangerous mutants and heretics.

The Inquisition has discovered that the extremely rare negative psychic energy used in psyk-out and psycannon weaponry can be produced from rendered-down Sensei - the only other source in the galaxy is from the byproducts of the Emperor's metabolism.

The Sensei have inherited great power from the Emperor. They also possess unique abilities of their own. Because they harbour none of the emotions or concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers, they are largely invisible to them, and can draw on the energies of the Warp to use their psychic powers without attracting daemons or other malicious forces of the Warp. Due to their harmonious relationship with the Warp, the Sensei are invisible to psychic senses, even to those of the Emperor.

The Sensei are all naturally connected to the Star Child, in a similar way the Champions of Chaos are bonded to their Chaos Patron gods; ultimately Sensei can achieve apotheosis, disappearing into the warp and merging with the Star Child.

Sensei wander throughout the galaxy. In contrast to the servants of the Emperor, Sensei are natural rebels. As well as being enemies of Chaos, Sensei are enemies of oppression. They and their followers operate as outlaw bands, and appear across the Imperium to fight against repression and injustice. In this way, they often come into conflict with the Imperium.
The Imperium regards the Sensei as dangerous bandits and nihilists who, if not actually in league with Chaos, are weakening the Imperium's defence against Chaos. Because of their powers and militantly anti-authority natures, they are hunted down and killed by Imperial forces, which in turn forces the Sensei to operate as outlaws.

The Sensei and the Illuminati
The earliest Sensei background describes them as the literal sons of the Emperor fathered over his vast lifetime. The Sensei are also a vital part of the Illuminati's plan to save humanity through the rejuvenation of the Emperor. The Illuminati gather the Sensei and protect them from the Inquisition, preparing them for "the final war with Chaos". In truth however the Illuminati intend to sacrifice to the Emperor his sons, in the same way many millions of psykers have already been sacrificed to feed the Emperor. All of the remaining Sensei are to be offered to the Emperor as a sacrifice at the moment his will finally breaks. The Emperor will be rejuvenated, and reborn as the Sensei-Emperor to again lead his race in person.

Lexicanum wrote:
Illuminati
The Illuminati are a secret society, existing beyond even the Emperor's knowledge, but manipulating and interpreting the Imperial Will to bring about their objectives.

Overview
Every member is a part of the society by virtue of being "illuminated" through the experience of daemonic possession, and finally salvation. Possessed by a daemon, they have done what seems impossible, exorcising the daemon from their body through their own sheer will.

In most cases, a daemonhost does not survive possession - the victim is eventually driven insane, or the mind is driven out of the host body so that the daemon takes complete control of it. A daemon can exist indefinitely within a host, with the possessed host often continuing their mortal life. Sometimes a strong-willed host can put up some resistance and preserve their self within a tenuous corner of the possessed brain. The host mind survives as a mere helpless witness as the daemon uses the mortal body to wreak its terrible acts. In a few instances, however, an individual has managed to cast the daemon from their body.

The Illuminati have been 'illuminated' to the terror of Chaos. Sharing a mind with a daemon, they have gained the most intimate understanding of Chaos. Having mastered the Chaos within themselves, they are immune to its temptations and corruption, and they now fight it in the broader universe. As they share a common enemy, the Illuminati are frequently involved on some level with the Eldar, in particular the Harlequins. The Illuminati are some of the very few allowed access to the Eldar's Black Library of Chaos. They know of the Fall of the Eldar, and seek to prevent the same from happening to Man.

The Illuminatis' experiences have brought them to a level of harsh realism that has no equal. The Illuminati are devoted solely to mankind's preservation. Ultimately, this goal involves plotting to bring about the rebirth of the Emperor of Mankind. They realize the Emperor's mind is failing, His will fragmenting into warring parts, and that there will come a time where the Emperor has deteriorated to the point where His will finally breaks. Without the Emperor, mankind will fall to Chaos. The Illuminati plan to rejuvenate the Emperor by sacrificing His descendants, the Sensei, at the moment the Emperor's will finally fails. The Emperor will be reborn, as the Sensei-Emperor, to again lead humanity directly. Their plans are a carefully kept secret; should the Emperor learn their plan, He may see no reason to continue to endure, and allow Himself to die prematurely. Should the Sensei learn, they may be unwilling to meet their intended fate.

The Illuminati influence events to pave the way for the Emperor's rebirth, and gather together the Sensei, protecting them from the persecution of the Inquisition.

The Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition know of the Illuminati, considering them dangerous heretics. They fear the Illuminati's plans are influenced by Chaos. The Ordo Malleus are devoted to wiping out the Illuminati and Sensei whenever they come across them, while in this secret war, the Illuminati engage in a campaign of confusion and disinformation against the Ordo Malleus.

Many Illuminati are also Inquisitors, which gives the brotherhood much more power and influence.

Furthermore, within the Illuminati there is an even more extreme faction known as the Ordo Hydra that seeks to save mankind by linking the mind of every individual through a warp entity known as the Hydra, thereby psychically unifying mankind into one being under the control of the Ordo Hydra themselves.

**Duskweaver**

I think GW's intention is that the Perpetuals are a retcon/replacement of the Sensei. And 'true' Living Saints (i.e. individuals like Celestine or Joaqhuine Desdemondra, rather than just whatever random schmuck the Ecclesiarchy decided to canonise this week) seem like they're meant to be Perpetuals deliberately created by the Emperor as part of some experiment or desperate last gambit.

So the Sensei are (probably) no longer canon, but Perpetuals fill the same conceptual niche in the background, and the old fluff of them potentially being sacrificed to bring back the Emperor could still be viable (and might be the ultimate purpose of his creation of Living Saints).

**Delvarus Centurion**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
If Sensei are still a thing in the setting* then they could be saints, I suppose. However, define "saint". Some saints are canonised by the Ecclesiarchy; they may or may not be actually "holy" in that they're blessed by the Emperor (it might be that deceased Ecclesiarchs are routinely canonised as a matter of course, like ex-Prime Ministers getting a seat in the House of Lords). However, once canonised they can become a focus for worship and belief and become relics of power no matter their status in life.

A Living Saint is a hero of the Imperium, revived from death and imbued with miraculous powers.

If the old background about Sensei still holds, they're generally considered heretics by the Imperium at large, so are unlikely to be canonised by the authorities. And they're not (usually) miraculously revived, so they don't seem to fit the definition of a Living Saint.

I suppose a Sensei could be canonised, or even revived as a Living Saint if the Imperium at large was unaware of their true status, but I don't think we need to force the two ideas together like this.

Sensei were mentioned in the Realm of Chaos books, Slaves to Darkness and The Lost And The Damned in 1988 and 1990, and also briefly in Ian Watson's Inquisition War series published around the same time. Are they still "canon"? If you want, but you'll get a lot of blank stares when you mention them.

Lexicanum wrote:
Sensei
The Sensei are the descendants of the Emperor. Their exact nature is contradictory, but what is clear is that they are immortal - though they can be killed, they do not age.

History
To the Inquisition, particularly the Ordo Malleus, the Sensei are one of the great threats to the Imperium, the Inquisition seeing the Sensei as dangerous mutants and heretics.

The Inquisition has discovered that the extremely rare negative psychic energy used in psyk-out and psycannon weaponry can be produced from rendered-down Sensei - the only other source in the galaxy is from the byproducts of the Emperor's metabolism.

The Sensei have inherited great power from the Emperor. They also possess unique abilities of their own. Because they harbour none of the emotions or concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers, they are largely invisible to them, and can draw on the energies of the Warp to use their psychic powers without attracting daemons or other malicious forces of the Warp. Due to their harmonious relationship with the Warp, the Sensei are invisible to psychic senses, even to those of the Emperor.

The Sensei are all naturally connected to the Star Child, in a similar way the Champions of Chaos are bonded to their Chaos Patron gods; ultimately Sensei can achieve apotheosis, disappearing into the warp and merging with the Star Child.

Sensei wander throughout the galaxy. In contrast to the servants of the Emperor, Sensei are natural rebels. As well as being enemies of Chaos, Sensei are enemies of oppression. They and their followers operate as outlaw bands, and appear across the Imperium to fight against repression and injustice. In this way, they often come into conflict with the Imperium.
The Imperium regards the Sensei as dangerous bandits and nihilists who, if not actually in league with Chaos, are weakening the Imperium's defence against Chaos. Because of their powers and militantly anti-authority natures, they are hunted down and killed by Imperial forces, which in turn forces the Sensei to operate as outlaws.

The Sensei and the Illuminati
The earliest Sensei background describes them as the literal sons of the Emperor fathered over his vast lifetime. The Sensei are also a vital part of the Illuminati's plan to save humanity through the rejuvenation of the Emperor. The Illuminati gather the Sensei and protect them from the Inquisition, preparing them for "the final war with Chaos". In truth however the Illuminati intend to sacrifice to the Emperor his sons, in the same way many millions of psykers have already been sacrificed to feed the Emperor. All of the remaining Sensei are to be offered to the Emperor as a sacrifice at the moment his will finally breaks. The Emperor will be rejuvenated, and reborn as the Sensei-Emperor to again lead his race in person.

Lexicanum wrote:
Illuminati
The Illuminati are a secret society, existing beyond even the Emperor's knowledge, but manipulating and interpreting the Imperial Will to bring about their objectives.

Overview
Every member is a part of the society by virtue of being "illuminated" through the experience of daemonic possession, and finally salvation. Possessed by a daemon, they have done what seems impossible, exorcising the daemon from their body through their own sheer will.

In most cases, a daemonhost does not survive possession - the victim is eventually driven insane, or the mind is driven out of the host body so that the daemon takes complete control of it. A daemon can exist indefinitely within a host, with the possessed host often continuing their mortal life. Sometimes a strong-willed host can put up some resistance and preserve their self within a tenuous corner of the possessed brain. The host mind survives as a mere helpless witness as the daemon uses the mortal body to wreak its terrible acts. In a few instances, however, an individual has managed to cast the daemon from their body.

The Illuminati have been 'illuminated' to the terror of Chaos. Sharing a mind with a daemon, they have gained the most intimate understanding of Chaos. Having mastered the Chaos within themselves, they are immune to its temptations and corruption, and they now fight it in the broader universe. As they share a common enemy, the Illuminati are frequently involved on some level with the Eldar, in particular the Harlequins. The Illuminati are some of the very few allowed access to the Eldar's Black Library of Chaos. They know of the Fall of the Eldar, and seek to prevent the same from happening to Man.

The Illuminatis' experiences have brought them to a level of harsh realism that has no equal. The Illuminati are devoted solely to mankind's preservation. Ultimately, this goal involves plotting to bring about the rebirth of the Emperor of Mankind. They realize the Emperor's mind is failing, His will fragmenting into warring parts, and that there will come a time where the Emperor has deteriorated to the point where His will finally breaks. Without the Emperor, mankind will fall to Chaos. The Illuminati plan to rejuvenate the Emperor by sacrificing His descendants, the Sensei, at the moment the Emperor's will finally fails. The Emperor will be reborn, as the Sensei-Emperor, to again lead humanity directly. Their plans are a carefully kept secret; should the Emperor learn their plan, He may see no reason to continue to endure, and allow Himself to die prematurely. Should the Sensei learn, they may be unwilling to meet their intended fate.

The Illuminati influence events to pave the way for the Emperor's rebirth, and gather together the Sensei, protecting them from the persecution of the Inquisition.

The Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition know of the Illuminati, considering them dangerous heretics. They fear the Illuminati's plans are influenced by Chaos. The Ordo Malleus are devoted to wiping out the Illuminati and Sensei whenever they come across them, while in this secret war, the Illuminati engage in a campaign of confusion and disinformation against the Ordo Malleus.

Many Illuminati are also Inquisitors, which gives the brotherhood much more power and influence.

Furthermore, within the Illuminati there is an even more extreme faction known as the Ordo Hydra that seeks to save mankind by linking the mind of every individual through a warp entity known as the Hydra, thereby psychically unifying mankind into one being under the control of the Ordo Hydra themselves.

I mean saints that have passed the sisters of battle/ministorum trials.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Duskweaver wrote:
I think GW's intention is that the Perpetuals are a retcon/replacement of the Sensei. And 'true' Living Saints (i.e. individuals like Celestine or Joaqhuine Desdemondra, rather than just whatever random schmuck the Ecclesiarchy decided to canonise this week) seem like they're meant to be Perpetuals deliberately created by the Emperor as part of some experiment or desperate last gambit.

So the Sensei are (probably) no longer canon, but Perpetuals fill the same conceptual niche in the background, and the old fluff of them potentially being sacrificed to bring back the Emperor could still be viable (and might be the ultimate purpose of his creation of Living Saints).

The perpetuals could be the sensei but yeah you are right, until confirmation they are probable no longer cannon, whoever technically they still are until they are refuted by new lore.

**AndrewGPaul**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I mean saints that have passed the sisters of battle/ministorum trials.

What trials? There's not a defined training system for Imperial Saints, to my knowledge - you've just got to be judged sufficiently holy by the Ecclesiarchy.

To be a Living Saint, you also need to be miraculously resurrected.

The Perpetuals are different to the Sensei - for one thing, Sensei only have an indefinite natural lifespan; if they're actively killed, they don't come back from the dead, unlike Perpetuals. The Perpetuals might take up the same sort of conceptual space as the Sensei do, but their aims are very different, and so far, they've only been mentioned in the Black Library Horus Heresy material; they've not been "seen" in 10,000 years

At the moment, the Sensei seem to be an orphaned idea; the Emperor as depicted in the more recent fiction is much more inhuman than was previously shown; the idea of having offspring seems to have been abandoned.

**Delvarus Centurion**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I mean saints that have passed the sisters of battle/ministorum trials.

What trials? There's not a defined training system for Imperial Saints, to my knowledge - you've just got to be judged sufficiently holy by the Ecclesiarchy. To be a Living Saint, you also need to be miraculously resurrected.

The Perpetuals are different to the Sensei - for one thing, Sensei only have an indefinite natural lifespan; if they're actively killed, they don't come back from the dead, unlike Perpetuals. The Perpetuals might take up the same sort of conceptual space as the Sensei do, but their aims are very different, and so far, they've only been mentioned in the Black Library Horus Heresy material; they've not been "seen" in 10,000 years

At the moment, the Sensei seem to be an orphaned idea; the Emperor as depicted in the more recent fiction is much more inhuman than was previously shown; the idea of having offspring seems to have been abandoned.

Yup the girl in Plague wars was put on trail by the Sisters of battle to see if she was a real saint.

**AndrewGPaul**

This one?

[url=https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/dark-imperium-plague-war.html]Plague War[/url

Not read that yet, but I would think that it's inspired by the process of canonisation in the Roman Catholic Church; the trial is a test of holiness, I would assume.

There's no reason why a Sensei can't live a faithful and pious life and be canonised accordingly; however, if they admit to who they really are, I would think that would lessen their chances of canonisation (and probably result in their execution for heresy, although if one was killed in that way, they cuold return as a Living Saint, I suppose).

**Duskweaver**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Sensei only have an indefinite natural lifespan; if they're actively killed, they don't come back from the dead, unlike Perpetuals.

That was always rather silly, though. Just not aging won't let you live for millennia. Statistically, you'd be lucky to see more than a couple of centuries if you don't have some way to come back from otherwise fatal accidents. It's a very commonly handwaved thing in fiction, though, because most authors don't understand how probability works over long time periods. Perpetuals actually make much more 'sense' (within the context of the setting).

their aims are very different,

Not sure what you mean here. Both Sensei and Perpetuals are individuals, each with their own individual aims. There's no blanket ideology that unites either group. Are you conflating Perpetuals with the Cabal and Sensei with the Illuminati?

and so far, they've only been mentioned in the Black Library Horus Heresy material; they've not been "seen" in 10,000 years

Desdemondra in Atlas Infernal is very obviously a Perpetual. People call her a Saint thanks to 10,000 years of theocracy, but she isn't at all pious and she regenerates exactly the same way Vulkan does.

the Emperor as depicted in the more recent fiction is much more inhuman than was previously shown; the idea of having offspring seems to have been abandoned.

Hence them being replaced with the Perpetuals. Other Perpetuals do seem to acknowledge the Emperor as being somehow unique, though, rather than just another of their number. And he also seems to be the oldest of them (AFAIK we've met no others who can remember all the way back to the 8th millennium BC). I would not be surprised if it is eventually revealed that the Emperor is the only 'natural' Perpetual and the others we don't already have a known origin for were all created by him (making them his 'descendants' in the same way the Primarchs are his 'sons').

**Kroem**

The nice think about the 40k setting is things don't have to be cannon or not cannon.

The fact is that there is a faction of the Inquisition that believe in the Sensei, and are willing to use any means necessary to track them down and inflict a horrible death upon them. That they might be madmen chasing ghosts just makes it more grimdark.

**AndrewGPaul**

Duskweaver wrote:

their aims are very different,

Not sure what you mean here. Both Sensei and Perpetuals are individuals, each with their own individual aims. There's no blanket ideology that unites either group. Are you conflating Perpetuals with the Cabal and Sensei with the Illuminati?

Not really. More that the Sensei were almost all "heroes" - doing good in a world subsumed in evil. they were explicitly a more optimistic element, unlike the perpetuals who definitely don't have any unifying creed other than "don't die" (except for John Grammaticus). The existence of the Star Child as the Emperor's warp entity granting actual powers and direction also works as a unifying factor in the same way as Khorne worship tends to narrow the behaviour of his followers.