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Hey Dakka, I am writing a one shot for 6 players. At 12th level should 6 player characters be able to fight an Ancient red dragon in his lair?

 6^ wrote:
Hey Dakka, I am writing a one shot for 6 players. At 12th level should 6 player characters be able to fight an Ancient red dragon in his lair?

What edition?

Of course they should be able to fight the dragon in his lair. Whether or not they are able to defeat him is another story entirely.

Generally speaking no.

Ancient Red dragons means 5e, though I cant speak for 4e.

A 5e epic monster has lair abilities, and a red dragon often has some minions, even relatively simple minions like kobolds can be a real problem as they can hinder the players ability to use the environment against the dragon. the dragon will not normally hesiotate to breather on one or more adventurers tied down with kobolds, kobolds die the dragon has plenty more.

Having some form of traps in the lair above what is called for in the lair environment description. Precarious boulders are a common example, large enough to block people but easy to little more than pebbles to a large dragon.

A dragon will know its lair, especially a red as reds are known for the deductive thinking and tactical foresight. Any place to hide not favourable to the dragon will be filled up or scoured out, with sole exception of access tunnels for minions which do not lead anywhere tactically important and are guarded internally.

Think hard about the dragons chosen spells. In 5e an ancient red dragon can cast six spells once each per day, and each slot of eighth level. This is under the variant Mo0nster spell casting rules, which should certainly be used for a greater dragon. It doesnt say this but I would be content to swap out one or more slots for cantrips. Most of the spell abilities should be utility orientated which is frankly good enough as the weakness of the dragon will be in doing things massive claws and jaws are not designed to counter. Mage Hand is a must for any self respecting dragon. Some form of shape changing ability could be useful though a red dragon would not want to spend time in an inferior form.

If you want to go pure I would choose:
Dispel Magic - Dispels up to level 8 spells. As you can only do this once per day I would recommend Dispel over Countermagic
Cloudkill - Good for smoking out victims hiding in hard to rerach places. Does 8d8 damage
Telekinesis - If you cant have Mage Hand have this for fine work. Frankly this is a must take for utility for the dragon, even if the dragon achieves fine dexterity only for a short time (10 minutes) each day. On any given day this ability might be used before a dragon ends up having need of it in combat, if available this is perfect for pulling victims out of tunnels, or plucking treasure from kills.
Cone of Cold - It is tactically useful to do the opposite to what is expected. I can see this pleasing the dragon. This cone of cold does 11D8.
Reverse Gravity - the dragon can account for this while flying. this will counter a rockslide too big even for a dragon to clear
Mass Suggestion - 30 day duration, mook organisation ability for a dozen mooks at a time. The dragon could chain cast this once per day to keep a whole tribe of mooks under his spell. Kobolds are ideal as they tend to worship dragons anyway.

There is nothing really stopping you doubling up on one or more of these spells, but as the dragon doesnt appear to be abler to change them versatility is more plausible. Other good choices are Plane Shift, Teleport and Wall of Fire.

On paper, this would be very rough, especially if the PCs have had to spend a fair amount of resources on getting to the dragon in the first place (depending on the gear/classes of the PCs, off the back of a Long Rest they'd have a much better shot). However, there are a few things you can do to even things out a bit, so you can have all the fun of fighting a big feth-off dragon without the imminent TPK that probably goes with it.

All of this is without knowing your context, but assuming it's a fairly linear adventure that's going to lead to the PCs fighting this dragon on its home turf as the finale, here's some options.

As it's a oneshot, don't be afraid to hand out some very powerful stuff, as you don't have to worry about that affected balance further along in a campaign. For instance, throw in the opportunity for the PCs to track down the last party of adventurers who took on this Dragon, and on finding them, let them find, say, a Dragonslayer Longsword and a Ring of Fire Resistance on the body of the fallen knight. The Wizard could be carrying a Wand with several charges of Absorb Elements in it. The Rogue has some potions and a Cloak of Invisibility. That much loot in one go in a campaign is asking for a balancing nightmare a few sessions down the line, but in a oneshot, it should serve to give them a better chance in the finale, and lets the players have fun with some high-power stuff that they might not normally get.

Further down that train of thought, maybe this previous party didn't fail entirely, and has something to offer beyond the loot they died with. One of them might hold a map that reveals a hidden entrance into the dragon's lair, perhaps affording the party a Surprise Round should they successfully use this entry. Or perhaps the knight dealt the dragon a grievous blow in their previous battle before perishing, and thus the dragon has a lowered Constitution as a result of this injury (which would also lower its HP, perhaps weaken it's Breath Weapon?). Maybe the dying act of a Cleric with the party was to perform a ritual that would send aid (perhaps in the form of the Planar Ally spell) to the next heroes seeking to slay the dragon.


On the flipside, there are ways you can play the dragon that makes it more interesting and a little fairer. For instance, you could determine that this particular dragon is highly arrogant, not wishing to immediately immolate interlopers with his breath attack when he could toy with them in melee a bit first, test their puny strength against his own, only unleashing the fire breath when it feels outmatched or grows bored. For the same reason, he might eschew minions, all the better to slay and loot the encroaching party for the benefit of his own hoard.

Alternatively, following on from the previous idea of a party having faced him before, this might not end with him being reduced to 0HP. Dragons are smart, and when the fight turns against them, very likely to make a tactical retreat, probably the moment it approaches the bottom third of its HP. While in the long term this means he'll just come back, for the party a 'win' could be driving the dragon from his hoard or forcing him to flee these lands he is terrorising, rather than straight-up slaying him. Not only does this provide scope for a somewhat easier but still satisfying resolution, it also means that if the PCs do manage to kill the dragon as it flees then their achievement is even greater that it that was the intended outcome all along. Handy setup for a sequel adventure if it does escape, too!

Hope that's of some use!

My take is that you shouldnt pull blows from top tier monsters, or they don't deserve their tier. There may be circumstances that cause a dragon to not fight as well as it should but most powerful and intelligent monsters have the experience and longevity not to make basic mistakes, or at least recover from them.

Ancient dragons don't become scourges of nations over several generations by being weak or stupid.

Adventurers should get success exp for surviving a dragon, let alone killing it. the former should be the real goal, a successful adventure could be no more than penetrating the lair and knowing when to retreat possibly with treasure, possibly with intel. It worked for Bilbo.

Wow, great replies. Thank you for the advice.