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Okay, so I've been talking with some of the local Warbosses in my area and nearly all of them refuse to take warbikes in their list. Reasons all seem to be the same: they're just not worth the points for what they do. I can kind of agree, there's nothing I can find in them that makes them terribly competitive (though they do look very cool).

After looking it over a bit, my brain flashed back to 3rd Edition and wondered if a return/re-work of an old rule might help. After some thought, I decided a return to the Psycho-Blastas rule might help things out:



PSYCHO-BLASTAS
Ork biker boyz are fuelled by the sensation of speed, leading entire mobs to simply hold down the trigger as their bikes careen into the enemy spitting hot lead at point blank range and riding over the bodies of the dead.

On the same turn a unit of Warbikers successfully charge an enemy, they may use their Dakkaguns in the Close Combat phase using the same profile but hitting on 3+ due to their close proximity to the enemy.



This would make them much harder-hitting on the charge than they were, and might make up for the heavy cost each of these boyz racks up. Might be a bit OP and have to be reduced to using the BS of 5+ to even it out, but I'm not sure.


What do you folks think about that? Would that make you more likely to take Bikes in your army?

They don't even hit with their pistols at that accuracy at melee range.

Lootmasta wrote:
Okay, so I've been talking with some of the local Warbosses in my area and nearly all of them refuse to take warbikes in their list. Reasons all seem to be the same: they're just not worth the points for what they do. I can kind of agree, there's nothing I can find in them that makes them terribly competitive (though they do look very cool).

After looking it over a bit, my brain flashed back to 3rd Edition and wondered if a return/re-work of an old rule might help. After some thought, I decided a return to the Psycho-Blastas rule might help things out:



PSYCHO-BLASTAS
Ork biker boyz are fuelled by the sensation of speed, leading entire mobs to simply hold down the trigger as their bikes careen into the enemy spitting hot lead at point blank range and riding over the bodies of the dead.

On the same turn a unit of Warbikers successfully charge an enemy, they may use their Dakkaguns in the Close Combat phase using the same profile but hitting on 3+ due to their close proximity to the enemy.



This would make them much harder-hitting on the charge than they were, and might make up for the heavy cost each of these boyz racks up. Might be a bit OP and have to be reduced to using the BS of 5+ to even it out, but I'm not sure.


What do you folks think about that? Would that make you more likely to take Bikes in your army?

So almost 3x Shooting if they charge? Why not just give them 3 extra attacks?

*SM Scout Bikes: 21 pts, 2,7 S4 hits within 24", 1,3 additional S4 hits within 12", 1,3 additional S4 hits in melee.
*Warbikes: 23 pts, 1,2 S5 hits within 24", 2 additional S4 hits in melee.
*Psychobikes: 23 pts, 1,2 S5 hits within 24", 2 additional S5 hits in melee, 2 additional S4 hits in melee.
*Angrybikes: 23 pts, 1,2 S5 hits within 24", 4 additional S4 hits in melee.

I think your suggestion makes them about on-par with Scout Bikes because the Deffkilla Wartrike is better than a Captain and/or Lieutenant. How did you envision Advancing interacting with the new rule? Do they hit on 4+? It's kind of a mess and it would be much easier to just increase their attacks characteristic if they charge.

Pts could fix them, but then they'd be heavily weighted towards being tough rather than killy, with BS5+ you just need that many more shots before it starts to matter.

The way to fix bikes should be different in my view.

They are a fast harassing unit and so they rules should reflect it.

Give them billowing clouds as default (-1 to hit or an invul save ala genestealer or cover by default). Make them more durable and drop the price to 18-20 range.

7 biker +biker nob with power klaw should be around 160-180pts with the suggested increased resilence.

I'm not sure I'd want to see bikers' offense or defense significantly boosted. As-is, they're good at joining the other waves of orky charge threats that slam into the enemy lines turns 1 and 2, and they put out a ton of shots. If they're considered too expensive for their points, maybe they're best fixed by just changing the points cost. The datasheet seems to do what it's meant to do.

They shoot a lot of shots. They swing a lot of choppas. They move fast. They can already be "sneaky" as blood axes as-is if you want to lean into the dust cloud thing. Do their mechanics not match their fluff in some fashion? Seems like they just need a modest points drop.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm not sure I'd want to see bikers' offense or defense significantly boosted. As-is, they're good at joining the other waves of orky charge threats that slam into the enemy lines turns 1 and 2, and they put out a ton of shots. If they're considered too expensive for their points, maybe they're best fixed by just changing the points cost. The datasheet seems to do what it's meant to do.

They shoot a lot of shots. They swing a lot of choppas. They move fast. They can already be "sneaky" as blood axes as-is if you want to lean into the dust cloud thing. Do their mechanics not match their fluff in some fashion? Seems like they just need a modest points drop.

They swing a third as hard in melee and shoot half as many shots in terms of points invested vs Shoota Boyz. I think their toughness is very high compared to their offense, higher than most competitive Ork units at least, by making them more of a glass cannons rather than gak cannons they fit in better with Boyz and Lootas. If you further increase their defence by giving them -1 to hit or just keep the ratio the same and balance them by lowering their cost they still won't fit in with the rest of the force. If you want to see them viable in meta armies then they are going to be must-includes into armies where they actually fit. Hopefully, they'll become cheaper like so many other bikes did in CA2018, I doubt we'll see any other changes but I do think they are relatively too tough for their own good.

 vict0988 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm not sure I'd want to see bikers' offense or defense significantly boosted. As-is, they're good at joining the other waves of orky charge threats that slam into the enemy lines turns 1 and 2, and they put out a ton of shots. If they're considered too expensive for their points, maybe they're best fixed by just changing the points cost. The datasheet seems to do what it's meant to do.

They shoot a lot of shots. They swing a lot of choppas. They move fast. They can already be "sneaky" as blood axes as-is if you want to lean into the dust cloud thing. Do their mechanics not match their fluff in some fashion? Seems like they just need a modest points drop.

They swing a third as hard in melee and shoot half as many shots in terms of points invested vs Shoota Boyz. I think their toughness is very high compared to their offense, higher than most competitive Ork units at least, by making them more of a glass cannons rather than gak cannons they fit in better with Boyz and Lootas. If you further increase their defence by giving them -1 to hit or just keep the ratio the same and balance them by lowering their cost they still won't fit in with the rest of the force. If you want to see them viable in meta armies then they are going to be must-includes into armies where they actually fit. Hopefully, they'll become cheaper like so many other bikes did in CA2018, I doubt we'll see any other changes but I do think they are relatively too tough for their own good.

I'm not an ork player, so I'm probably way off base here. That said, do you really want bikers to be more fragile and more killy? If you make them more fragile, you're limiting the time an expensive model (in terms of both dollars and points) will be on the table. Plus, making them fragile makes them feel less distinct from squishy infantry boyz.

They might be less stabby than boyz and less shooty than shootaboyz, but they're reasonably good at both and can leverage both in the same turn. They're also mobile enough to not require the deepstrike resources you're using to deliver your infantry units into range. When ork players use them around here, they basically end up being the turn 2 threat that you ignore at your own peril. You've already got a squad of Da Jump'd boyz on your front lines, but failing to deal with the bikes coming up behind them means you'll have that much more offense in your phase on turn 2 when the second Da Jumped unit, the tellyported unit, and the Blood Axes all show up and start making charge rolls.

Basically, it seems like they do their job as intended. They just cost a little too much for what you get. They probably shouldn't feel like GSC bikers, right?

Wyldhunt wrote:
They might be less stabby than boyz and less shooty than shootaboyz, but they're reasonably good at both and can leverage both in the same turn. They're also mobile enough to not require the deepstrike resources you're using to deliver your infantry units into range. When ork players use them around here, they basically end up being the turn 2 threat that you ignore at your own peril. You've already got a squad of Da Jump'd boyz on your front lines, but failing to deal with the bikes coming up behind them means you'll have that much more offense in your phase on turn 2 when the second Da Jumped unit, the tellyported unit, and the Blood Axes all show up and start making charge rolls.

No they are less shooty and less stabby than shootaboyz, choppas don't feature in. Shootaboyz get 60 shots and 60 attacks, Bikers get 30 shots and 30 attacks. Shootaboyz have 30 T4 wounds with a 6+ Sv, Bikers have 18 T5 wound with a 4+ Sv. Their strengths are toughness and mobility relative to their damage output which is low relative to their mobility and toughness. So if that's what you want then yes, lower their pts or make them even more durable. But Warbikers did not get more shooty or killy this edition, on the other hand they did get tougher. Take a look at SM Bikes or Necron Tomb Blades, they get 33% more hits on average due to the changes of twin-linked weaponry and they got twice as many wounds. Warbikers got nothing in terms of offence, switched out their -1 to hit for +1 W. They are more weighted towards defence than they have been for a couple of editions at the least, they are bikes not tanks, there also has to be room for Nob bikers boosted by Painboyz to be the real tanky boys.

 vict0988 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
They might be less stabby than boyz and less shooty than shootaboyz, but they're reasonably good at both and can leverage both in the same turn. They're also mobile enough to not require the deepstrike resources you're using to deliver your infantry units into range. When ork players use them around here, they basically end up being the turn 2 threat that you ignore at your own peril. You've already got a squad of Da Jump'd boyz on your front lines, but failing to deal with the bikes coming up behind them means you'll have that much more offense in your phase on turn 2 when the second Da Jumped unit, the tellyported unit, and the Blood Axes all show up and start making charge rolls.

No they are less shooty and less stabby than shootaboyz, choppas don't feature in. Shootaboyz get 60 shots and 60 attacks, Bikers get 30 shots and 30 attacks. Shootaboyz have 30 T4 wounds with a 6+ Sv, Bikers have 18 T5 wound with a 4+ Sv. Their strengths are toughness and mobility relative to their damage output which is low relative to their mobility and toughness. So if that's what you want then yes, lower their pts or make them even more durable. But Warbikers did not get more shooty or killy this edition, on the other hand they did get tougher. Take a look at SM Bikes or Necron Tomb Blades, they get 33% more hits on average due to the changes of twin-linked weaponry and they got twice as many wounds. Warbikers got nothing in terms of offence, switched out their -1 to hit for +1 W. They are more weighted towards defence than they have been for a couple of editions at the least, they are bikes not tanks, there also has to be room for Nob bikers boosted by Painboyz to be the real tanky boys.

Painboy itself needs to change for what, I presume, is in your mind. I think we discussed this topic already somewhere else. FnP on tougher units needs to be 5+, not 6+. The doc iteration I would like to see is a 3" bubble with 5+.

But coming back to normal bikes. I personally don't see them as glass cannons. They are more like distractions, scouts and harassing units.

30 shoota boys are 210.
For 210 pts you get 9 bikes (current price), so 54 shots againt the 60 from the shootas.
By far not 30shots vs 60shots as stated.

Mind that my suggestion on the billowing cloud would apply to all bikers (also nobs which are much more overcosted than normal bikers).

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
Painboy itself needs to change for what, I presume, is in your mind. I think we discussed this topic already somewhere else. FnP on tougher units needs to be 5+, not 6+. The doc iteration I would like to see is a 3" bubble with 5+.

But coming back to normal bikes. I personally don't see them as glass cannons. They are more like distractions, scouts and harassing units.

30 shoota boys are 210.
For 210 pts you get 9 bikes (current price), so 54 shots againt the 60 from the shootas.
By far not 30shots vs 60shots as stated.

Mind that my suggestion on the billowing cloud would apply to all bikers (also nobs which are much more overcosted than normal bikers).

Do you know the mathematics behind the suggested change to a Painboy? He is already a good choice for 2-wound units, making him even better is a bad idea. You get 20% more wounds, regardless of your durability, more than 30% extra wounds against D2 and less than 15% against D6 damage.

I was totally wrong about the Dakka guns, thought they only had one I'm a dummy, I retract my earlier statements about any of this being a good idea. Their pts just need to get a smidge lower. Letting them have an additional 6 attacks in melee at S5 is a really bad idea.

 vict0988 wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
Painboy itself needs to change for what, I presume, is in your mind. I think we discussed this topic already somewhere else. FnP on tougher units needs to be 5+, not 6+. The doc iteration I would like to see is a 3" bubble with 5+.

But coming back to normal bikes. I personally don't see them as glass cannons. They are more like distractions, scouts and harassing units.

30 shoota boys are 210.
For 210 pts you get 9 bikes (current price), so 54 shots againt the 60 from the shootas.
By far not 30shots vs 60shots as stated.

Mind that my suggestion on the billowing cloud would apply to all bikers (also nobs which are much more overcosted than normal bikers).

Do you know the mathematics behind the suggested change to a Painboy? He is already a good choice for 2-wound units, making him even better is a bad idea. You get 20% more wounds, regardless of your durability, more than 30% extra wounds against D2 and less than 15% against D6 damage.

I was totally wrong about the Dakka guns, thought they only had one I'm a dummy, I retract my earlier statements about any of this being a good idea. Their pts just need to get a smidge lower. Letting them have an additional 6 attacks in melee at S5 is a really bad idea.

While I haven't done the maths on the painboy, I certainly know I never take one as the return rate is never good enough. How many 2w models (or 3w) do you normally field? 6+ will save you 16% of the damage you take. That's spending 65 points to protect MANs? Nobs? Still better to bring more than bringing a painboy.

You can conga line many units, yes. I feel that is a 8th ed problem rather than a painboy problem. AoS solves it by forcing coherence (or overkilling if there is a lack of).

If the painboy would fill an HQ slot I would be more inclined to agree with you, as an elite choice...nop.

Yeah, crossing my fingers for a CA2019 points drop. Love the models but they're just a little bit on the spendy side.