Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since the Grey Knights Codex came out 24 months ago, and with the objectively stagnant state the codex rules have been, I think the online community have a fairly solid grasp of the weaknesses a Grey Knights army comes with now. So, I had a go at compiling those experiences, ideas and opinions expressed from various online discussions into structured rules, in a format inspired by the recent SM Codex 2.0 rules / supplements.

Just to reiterate this IS NOT a complete Codex Re-write, it's based on the current Codex GK unit / wargear points (so no points adjustments intended); and follows / inspired by the new C:SM 2.0 and Supplements.

With that said, compared to the Codex SM Supplements what do fellow players think of the above amendments to Grey Knights...under-powered, overpowered, or on par to be able to stand toe-to-toe with the new SM buffs....?

EDIT: V1.5 uploaded

I like some of the ideas presented. However, I keep hammering the idea of Bespoke Psyker powers for a reason.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like some of the ideas presented. However, I keep hammering the idea of Bespoke Psyker powers for a reason.

Which rule upgrades did you find had the most potential?

The Psychic Chorus, obviously.

I would like to see Malcador's Providence changed to granting cover outside of 12", and -1 to hit if entirely on/within a terrain piece.

I think these changes are excellent. In particular I liked the rework to the Liber Daemonica.

The wording on Pyrokinesis and Psychic Onslaught ought to be changed - currently the clause at the end which allows two units to be affected is very casually- written. Something along the lines of "use this stratagem at the beginning of your Shooting phase. Choose up to two units of GREY KNIGHTS. [Yadda-yadda]. This stratagem costs 1 CP if you selected only a single unit to be affected, or 3 otherwise."

Any thought to changing Psychic Choir to be more in line with the Adeptus Mechanicus Canticles? ie, roll d3 to determine which Chorus is in effect. Instead of rolling you may pick your result, but can never pick the same result more than once. And then your Psychic Resurgence stratagem would allow you to again pick one which you have already picked.

I like a lot of this. Most of the changes seem interesting and useful without being game breakers. I really like the idea of granting benefits for playing mono-faction. Some thoughts:

* Prognostic Strike probably isn't game breaking, but it feels like the sort of thing that might be well-suited for stratagem-hood. 750 points worth of deepstrikers in a 1500 point game with one or more Gate of Infinity units and maybe an interceptor(?) squad joining in is a whole lot of army making turn 1 charge rolls. Possibly with rerolls if I remember the banner correctly, and possibly with +1" added to the role thanks to Predestined Clash. I get that deepstriking and charging is kind of the GKs' thing, but it might be easier to be on the receiving end of it if you could see it costing your opponent some kind of resource (like CP).

* Psychic Chorus; am I correct in reading that as meaning that you only get to Psychic Chorus ONCE period, and that you choose the ability at the time you Psychic Chorus? Or do you get to use EACH ability once per game? As worded, I feel like it's the former.

* Psychic Chorus. I'm not sure I get the unit restrictions. Why does the presence of a guardsman or skitarii make your shiny magic go away, but the presence of a Black Dragon or Mantis Warrior doesn't? Also, this feels slightly weird next to The Incorruptible's restrictions. Are you trying to give greater benefits the more specific your keywords or something? Sort of feels like you could just add Psychic Chorus to the list of things you get for playing mono-GK.

* The Rites of Consecration, psy weapon special rules, and psychic onslaught all feel redundant .

* The wording on the psy weapons' special rule could probably be tweaked. Right now, it's worded more like vibro cannons than like blade storm. That is to say that it sort of sounds like multiple to-wound rolls of 6 for a given weapon are cumulative. Which I assume is not what you're going for.

* It weirds me out that Pyrokinesis's fluff says it works via telekinesis.

Overall, these seem fluffy and playable. I'd let someone use these against me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinMax wrote:
I would like to see Malcador's Providence changed to granting cover outside of 12", and -1 to hit if entirely on/within a terrain piece.

Do you feel that way because you want it to parody the revised Raven Guard rules? If so, I'd point to the Veil of Tears harlequin power which is not terrain dependent. My understanding is that this ability is meant to be the new version of the old range diminishing ability that Veil of Tears was the harlequin counterpart to, so having them both work with or without utilizing cover seems appropriate.

Plus, GK are all about that deepstrike. Adding a couple of inches to your charge roll vs imposing a -1 on to-hit rolls is a heck of an antisynergy choice to impose on yourself.

Seems like this is on the right track.

I’d suggest some minor changes though:

I second the above comment that the -1 to hit modifier would be better as counts as in cover. -1 to hit us a bad mechanic this edition and I'd try to eliminate it and replace it with counts as in cover throughout the game I’d I could. Also this would fit better with the OP’s stated intention of taking inspiration from the new SM codex

I would make psybolts a permanent ability for all grey knights, not dependent on a psychic test. More like Deathwatch SIA. You can select to fire psybolt ammunition with a unit, but if you do, you lose the benefit of bolter discipline while firing psybolts.

And I’m not convinced by the army wide ability to deep strike turn one. I don’t particularly like the fact that drop pods can do it now. If you are going to allow turn one deepstikes, I’d impose more limitations. Not sure what though, maybe CP cost, or limit it to specific units (fast attack only maybe?). Not sure, what the best option would be.

I absolutely love the layout. Care to share how you did it? Is there a guide I can find somewhere for how to do something similar?

Rites of Consecration is so good that I don't see you using any other psychic power, you're out-damaging smite all the time with this.

Prognostic Strike is something I fully agree GK need. Perhaps though I'd limit this to non-soup GK armies. I don't know if T1 GK DS beside an army of IG is a good idea or not, it might be perfectly fine, something to consider.

Psychic Chorus, let's assume each of them can be used once per battle, because otherwise the wording on the Stratagem doesn't make much sense. I'm a little worried about Land Raiders getting nothing. 4 shots in melee seems like too much, even if you're playing entirely GK, I like the other two. I'm a bit confused why it wouldn't work just like Doctrines with one being active at the start and then shifting to the next and then the next.

Perhaps if anything I'd have the GK player choose the starting "Doctrine" before the game begins, which order they'll come in and when they shift all before the game begins. So you choose Y T1, Z T2, 3 and 4, X T5, 6 and 7. Then you could have a Stratagem that changes things around, reward players for anticipating their needs and give them an out through CP to fix their mistakes to show the precognitive power of their special precog chamber.

The Incorruptible is okay, but it's basically useless when you're going to just get the 3+ psybolt ammunition every time anyways. I'd rather see them getting an additional discipline for their HQs (the SM one).

Why does the range on purifying flame need to be larger? It doesn't really change how often you get it off, just increases the payoff, I assume the payoff is already quite huge so I'd rather see a lower cost than having to balance around the possibility of an absolutely insane AOE with a couple of squads inside a flyer. Generating extra attacks when you wound is a real bad idea, give him extra attacks when he's fighting a character or a big squad or something instead of this.

All the weapon changes are a bad idea, way too OP. The heavy psycannon is already the best option for Dreadknights AFAIK, it does not need a buff. I know you're replacing your nemesis weapon (which is free) and the storm bolter (which is cheap) with the psycannon, but it's only 7 pts, it does not need to be this good. You also need to write down the twin version of the psycannon, perhabs that needs to be this good because FW put the price so high, but the basic ones? Too much IMO, with a pts adjustment the 2D would be okay. I don't think psilencers need a buff, they already kick ass with the Stratagem, if anything I'd give them AP-1, but I think that'd have to come with a price adjustment to the weapon as well. All these special condition extra damage, ap, whatever are a bad idea, it drags the game out.

I don't think any 8th ed Stratagems can be used on one or two units in the Shooting phase, I don't like it when a homebrew rule is very unique in relation to the official rules.

Psychic Resurgence is way too cheap, whether you intend to only allow 1 choir song each battle or 3, it's way too incredible to just pay 1 CP to use it again to now set aside CP for it. You are removing player agency by forcing them to spam this Stratagem 2-3 times per game.

I'd reduce the range of the Liber Daemonica back down to 6" but I absolutely love giving it a secondary ability, great way to make it useful against factions other than Daemons while retaining the GK flair. The hammer seems fine, might make it worthwhile to use Hammerhand on a character.

Thanks guys for the positive feedback, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this and refining it. And I appreciate the constructive suggestions and plan to refine the rules some more with those in mind.

My ultimate aim is to have a set of refined rules that is very lore-driven (thematically Grey Knights) but also reasonably competitive, that it can do well against other mono-armies or mid-tier soup armies. I have endeavoured the rules to be as “plug-and-play” with the current GKs codex as possible, part of the reason for its particular presentation. I hope other GK players can save the rules on their phones or even print them out to slip them into the pages of your GK codex. Many players are testing/refining their new SM army lists, and this would be a good time to try out these rules in the changing meta. It’s definitely a good sign some here have already said they wouldn’t mind a GKs player using these rules against them, so yeah feel free to try these rules at your local games, and with hands on experience, please share with us your feedback, so these rules can be refined even further!

Latest changes:
- Moved Prognostic Strike to a mono-GK army only buff.
- Re-worded Psychic Onslaught and pryokinesis stratagem for more cohesion.
- Re-worded Psychic Chorus for clarification (you can use the 3 abilities once each per battle).
- Increased Psychic Resurgence Stratagem to 2CP.
- Increased Rites of Consecration/psybolt ammo to a 4+ roll to use (instead of 3+). Bolter Discipline/rapidfire range + psybolt ammo is a standard GK tactic. I’d rather not take that away like they did for DW (which some DW players still complain about). Though I agree there needs to be some sort of alternative cost. At the moment, the best halfway point is costing the unit an opportunity of casting 1 psychic power and a 50% chance to activate it. Statistically, half of the units that try the ability wont get it, which is a fair enough barrier to prevent spamming the ammo.
- Re-worded Malcador’s Providence to GKs +1 to saving throws (instead of enemy -1 to hit), BUT it’s not a cover save. Meaning abilities that ignore cover saves will not affect it.
- Re-worded Psi weaponry abilities for clarification (bonuses only affect the shots where the 6s are rolled. They are not cumulative.)

Right now I’d have to disagree with the state of the GK special weapons. I’ll provide my reasonings below:

Considering the storm bolter is one of the most point’s efficient weapons in the game, and with FREE bolter discipline plus the possibility of psybolt ammunition (in some form), you have to give all that up on infantry for ineffective psi weaponry, which is why they aren’t popping into Grey Knights lists. GW have intentionally hampered them this edition by having them HEAVY with only a max. of 24” range and no relentless. So, 9/10 times your GKs are moving before they’re firing these HEAVY weapons so you’re shooting them at BS4+, which is why Purgation squads aren’t even in the top half for usable GK units, and with how limited the units there are for GKs, that’s saying something. GK infantry are hands down expensive, so while the psi weapons maybe relatively cheaper than some other army special weapons, they’re already on an expensive model that is probably always shooting on a 4+.

To improve the likelihood of Purgation squads in becoming valid options in even a semi-competitive army, I believe GK special weapons need to become better (preferably not with a hike in points). Also these buffs (aside from the 2D psycannon, though does the current 1D make them an effective/usable choice?), aren’t guaranteed either. They only proc on 6s (with no way to improve those odds), and are otherwise exactly the same. Increasing points for a weapon that may not even give you those bonuses will make them even less preferable (and my justification for the same points cost). The heavy psycannon is the NDK’s best weapon, but that doesn’t mean it’s a competitively good shooting weapon in the meta. It’s okay at its base profile, and only reaches good-tier with a Stratagem imo. Tournament champions have also implied its 6-shot, 24” autocannon profile isn’t on a competitive-level, and to make them better spending the current 2CP is too expensive. Compare it with the new Twin Ironhail Autocannon (the new toy for the Codex 2.0 Primaris), that is exactly like the Heavy Psycannon - but with double the range and 3 points cheaper! By the C:SM 2.0 standard, the heavy psycannon is way over-costed (and its our "most feasible" special weapon. Ouch!). So I for one believe GK special weapons are in need of improvements, and while CA2018 points dropped helped them a bit, they currently still cant compete with the already very points efficient storm bolter + bolter discipline, or other heavy weapons from the competitive meta.

Then one of the things you need to do is rework how their Psyker table is.

Personally I think it needs to be tossed out and totally reworked, and we can give the various units Bespoke Powers. Purgators get Astral Aim by default, Strikes and Interceptors get Warp Quake back (which would function as a 12" for preventing Deep Strike), Purifiers gain Cleansing Flame as a Nova like last edition with reworked stats, and then Terminators/Paladins gain something else.

 vict0988 wrote:
I absolutely love the layout. Care to share how you did it? Is there a guide I can find somewhere for how to do something similar?

It was done on photoshop. I have the digital Codex version so I incorporated the frame and images as a basis/background for the amendment rules. From there used layers of text formatted in a similar way to the Codex to maintain consistency.

Now that SM armies from the C:SM are firmly top tier in the meta currently, those who have played them or against those Codex supplement armies, how would you say these Grey Knights rules stack up to them?

Would a mono GK army hold their own against these SM Codex Supplement armies with just these rules buffs? Most have said these rules are about a solid power buff while keeping it lore fitting, can they hold up against GWs returned favoured sons and their new official rules?

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
Now that SM armies from the C:SM are firmly top tier in the meta currently, those who have played them or against those Codex supplement armies, how would you say these Grey Knights rules stack up to them?

Would a mono GK army hold their own against these SM Codex Supplement armies with just these rules buffs? Most have said these rules are about a solid power buff while keeping it lore fitting, can they hold up against GWs returned favoured sons and their new official rules?

Might have a build or two that can compete with SM factions other than IH, not sure how IH nerfs are going to pan out in terms of competitive balance. I think the current changes you've suggested would take them to be good enough to win grand tournaments once in a while instead of just once, but not good enough to dethrone SM, probably more competitive Drukhari tier than SM tier.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
Now that SM armies from the C:SM are firmly top tier in the meta currently, those who have played them or against those Codex supplement armies, how would you say these Grey Knights rules stack up to them?

Would a mono GK army hold their own against these SM Codex Supplement armies with just these rules buffs? Most have said these rules are about a solid power buff while keeping it lore fitting, can they hold up against GWs returned favoured sons and their new official rules?

Might have a build or two that can compete with SM factions other than IH, not sure how IH nerfs are going to pan out in terms of competitive balance. I think the current changes you've suggested would take them to be good enough to win grand tournaments once in a while instead of just once, but not good enough to dethrone SM, probably more competitive Drukhari tier than SM tier.

I kind of feel like the new marine rules push primaris stuff harder than single-wound marines. Given that force weapons are relatively efficient against expensive multi-wound marines, perhaps that's a stealth buff for GK in the meta? Of course, the improved offense of marines means that they'll be hammering into the GK harder than before, so...

Very well done. I love these changes, especially the one which lets you cast the same spell more than once.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Very well done. I love these changes, especially the one which lets you cast the same spell more than once.

Thanks. As a psychic buff this was the most clean and straight forward. The rule is very simple to remember and allows you to "plug and play" straight into your current 8th edition GK lists.

It's been really fun playing with the rule, but I have yet to try it all against a top-tier army...

 vict0988 wrote:

Might have a build or two that can compete with SM factions other than IH, not sure how IH nerfs are going to pan out in terms of competitive balance. I think the current changes you've suggested would take them to be good enough to win grand tournaments once in a while instead of just once, but not good enough to dethrone SM, probably more competitive Drukhari tier than SM tier.

Drukhari tier is a pretty strong tier, and they have a lot of unique rules as well. Nice. Maybe one day GKs will feel unique and strong too...officially.

I like some of these and I feel like the Hammer relic could be perfect. Useful but not too unfair.

I want the pistol 4 but I don't think we would get away with it. Pistol 2 might be nice.

I'd appreciate it more if these weren't so pretty.

They look official but they're not. Catch a whiff of cheating every time I see the thread.

The Incorruptible might deserve some more thought. There's only 2 or 3 useful Sanctic powers, not sure it makes sense to make them more expensive each one is used.

Like with Smite, this faction is supposed to excel in the psychic phase. Would love to have a natural roll each time.

Wargaining wrote:
I like some of these and I feel like the Hammer relic could be perfect. Useful but not too unfair.

I want the pistol 4 but I don't think we would get away with it. Pistol 2 might be nice.

From the feedback I have received it's about 60/40 for Pistol 4/Pistol 2. Others have said that the Pistol buff only occurs just before the second round of combat at the earliest, so whether what's left of your MSU GK squad will suddenly become OP from 4 extra shots once per game is up for discussion I guess. Your opponent can also just retreat, with no way for your GKs to lock them in combat and thus avoid those shots.

Still, at over 20 points for the GKs cheapest model and what would be the closest thing GKs have to screening units, a one time buff like that could help in finally justifying the cost of that model. A GK infantry unit that is not considered overcosted...wouldn't that be something? lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'd appreciate it more if these weren't so pretty.

They look official but they're not. Catch a whiff of cheating every time I see the thread.

Haha. It's pretty because Codex SM got some really pretty Supplements. And on a personal level, these pretty GK rules stops me from getting too salty that even though the GK Codex was released just a couple months after the first SM Codex, realistically nothing indicates we will get a Codex / rules update at the level of quality as those Supplements, even 12 months from now (since there are no new Primaris models for GW to push along with a GK army).

It's not like you can walk into a GT and "steal" a championship with these pretty rules anyway. Lol

 techsoldaten wrote:
Incorruptible might deserve some more thought. There's only 2 or 3 useful Sanctic powers, not sure it makes sense to make them more expensive each one is used.

Like with Smite, this faction is supposed to excel in the psychic phase. Would love to have a natural roll each time.

Having play-tested the psychic up to 2K points. The rule does some serious work. You can reliably cast about 3 Gates and 3 Sanctuaries along with a couple of Astral Aims before further attempts don't seem worth it. The other units have a fair go at loading psybolt ammo during that time instead. 50% to get psybolt is equivalent to a WC of 7.5 which can't be improved except for the standard 1CP re-roll.

Aash wrote:
And I’m not convinced by the army wide ability to deep strike turn one. I don’t particularly like the fact that drop pods can do it now. If you are going to allow turn one deepstikes, I’d impose more limitations. Not sure what though, maybe CP cost, or limit it to specific units (fast attack only maybe?). Not sure, what the best option would be.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I like a lot of this. Most of the changes seem interesting and useful without being game breakers. I really like the idea of granting benefits for playing mono-faction. Some thoughts:

* Prognostic Strike probably isn't game breaking, but it feels like the sort of thing that might be well-suited for stratagem-hood. 750 points worth of deepstrikers in a 1500 point game with one or more Gate of Infinity units and maybe an interceptor(?) squad joining in is a whole lot of army making turn 1 charge rolls. Possibly with rerolls if I remember the banner correctly, and possibly with +1" added to the role thanks to Predestined Clash. I get that deepstriking and charging is kind of the GKs' thing, but it might be easier to be on the receiving end of it if you could see it costing your opponent some kind of resource (like CP).

This is a tough one, I think thematically T1 Deep Strike fits GKs perfectly, and if I recall the nerfing/banning of T1 deepstrike wasn't because GKs could - and were doing it most of the time in the beginner half of 8ed. With the importance of screening as a standard army tactic in 8ed, and with how strong shooting castles still are, a mono-GK army with minimal models wouldn't be broken to an army that is properly prepared / screened...I think.

Still, how about a limitation of T1 Deep Strike to only GK units with the TERMINATOR keyword, where they also cannot arrive in the opponent's deployment zone on turn 1. This prevents GMNDK from arriving on turn 1 along with Strike Squads. Might even be a stealth buff to GK Terminator Squads who can give you Battalion CP while also arriving on turn 1 compared to Strike Squads...

What do people think?

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

Aash wrote:
And I’m not convinced by the army wide ability to deep strike turn one. I don’t particularly like the fact that drop pods can do it now. If you are going to allow turn one deepstikes, I’d impose more limitations. Not sure what though, maybe CP cost, or limit it to specific units (fast attack only maybe?). Not sure, what the best option would be.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I like a lot of this. Most of the changes seem interesting and useful without being game breakers. I really like the idea of granting benefits for playing mono-faction. Some thoughts:

* Prognostic Strike probably isn't game breaking, but it feels like the sort of thing that might be well-suited for stratagem-hood. 750 points worth of deepstrikers in a 1500 point game with one or more Gate of Infinity units and maybe an interceptor(?) squad joining in is a whole lot of army making turn 1 charge rolls. Possibly with rerolls if I remember the banner correctly, and possibly with +1" added to the role thanks to Predestined Clash. I get that deepstriking and charging is kind of the GKs' thing, but it might be easier to be on the receiving end of it if you could see it costing your opponent some kind of resource (like CP).

This is a tough one, I think thematically T1 Deep Strike fits GKs perfectly, and if I recall the nerfing/banning of T1 deepstrike wasn't because GKs could - and were doing it most of the time in the beginner half of 8ed. With the importance of screening as a standard army tactic in 8ed, and with how strong shooting castles still are, a mono-GK army with minimal models wouldn't be broken to an army that is properly prepared / screened...I think.

Still, how about a limitation of T1 Deep Strike to only GK units with the TERMINATOR keyword, where they also cannot arrive in the opponent's deployment zone on turn 1. This prevents GMNDK from arriving on turn 1 along with Strike Squads. Might even be a stealth buff to GK Terminator Squads who can give you Battalion CP while also arriving on turn 1 compared to Strike Squads...

What do people think?

It wasn't an issue in indexhammer, it's hard to say without playtesting, theoryhammer only gets you so far and I think you should try and playtest it with T1 DS allowed for all units. The Necron Disruption Fields Stratagem that improves Strength by 1 for a Fight phase probably didn't need to be for infantry only for example, I hope GW tested it and found that it was actually OP with Scarabs and Wraiths because it's just one less tool in my bag. If anything is an issue it'd be deep striking Terminators that can target units more than 12" away and still double-tap where Strike Squads can target units within 12" and then maybe have a harder charge or halve their firepower and point at a different unit.

Also, why not just make Psybolt Ammunition another 1 CP stratagem?

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Also, why not just make Psybolt Ammunition another 1 CP stratagem?

I also agree psybolt should remain a stratagemand instead make Hammerhand into a litany type ability.

 skchsan wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Also, why not just make Psybolt Ammunition another 1 CP stratagem?

I also agree psybolt should remain a stratagemand instead make Hammerhand into a litany type ability.

So which model would be the Grey Knight equivalent of a Chaplain?

 _SeeD_ wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Also, why not just make Psybolt Ammunition another 1 CP stratagem?

I also agree psybolt should remain a stratagemand instead make Hammerhand into a litany type ability.

So which model would be the Grey Knight equivalent of a Chaplain?

No, an ability that procs like litany (roll of X+, this ability is in effect), and not specifically litany of hate via chaplains.

I would also like to see the Nemesis Warding Staff give the invulnerable save buff to the whole squad, so that there's a reason to take them.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
I would also like to see the Nemesis Warding Staff give the invulnerable save buff to the whole squad, so that there's a reason to take them.

Or DtW +1 or MW FnP. It would be fun if one of the elements GK revolved around was MW mitigation. It wouldn't be super competitive but it'd give them an interesting edge over other armies.

Here's a thread I started about Grey Knight balancing:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/769475.page

Please forgive my rant about special issue ammunition.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
I would also like to see the Nemesis Warding Staff give the invulnerable save buff to the whole squad, so that there's a reason to take them.

Except then it's a mandatory upgrade.

+1 to Invul Save. If you don't have one, gain a 5++.

Bam, done. To those saying "what about characters", nobody cares if a Terminator Captain has a 3++.