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This weekend I returned to my FLGS to play a couple of games with a good friend who lives out of state. He was home visiting his relatives and we thought it would be a good chance to catch up.

Given I've been out of the game since June, I was a bit rusty, but I did make an observation that hit me pretty hard.

I'm not sure how other armies work in the current meta, but we noticed that a lot of our units (CSM and SM) might as well have just had a rule that said "Don't roll, just hit your target." The amount of units each of us had that could hit on a 2+ and reroll 1s was silly. Furthermore, it was really strange to note how crazy the access for reroll wounds are for SM players, when we as CSM barely get any ability to reroll wounds. Another thing I noticed was the prevelance of new stratagems that allow Ultramarines (maybe others, only played against Ultras and Iron Hands this weekend) to ignore a lot of the games core rules.

For example, in the Ultramarine fight, neither of us cared about leadership. It never came up once, we never had to roll. Also, I noted that the ultras have the ability to pay command points to ignore the penalty for flee and shoot for any unit.

What is the point of things like Moral, flee and accuracy, and ballistic skill, if you're so easily able to just wish them away?

Unfortunately he had limited time here, but both of us really wanted to try playing a game allowing NO rerolls of the dice and see just how different it is. I wonder, if it will A) Speed up the Game, and B) Balance out things like Leviathans and Obliterators.

Yep, the game has leaned heavily toward the "combo these things to (more or less) ignore the need for dice". This sells models pretty well, where a single $35-45 hero can convert over a sub-par unit into something worthwhile.

The overall killiness of the game has left me absolutely cold and I haven't bothered for several months. We did do several games outlawing the re-roll stratagem and it was pretty superb. That Stratagem alone kills any cool moments you can have in the game, which is...hugely unfortunate.

I was actually discussing this with my friends. I mentioned that back in 4th (when I started) rerolls basically didn't exist.

My current tournament army is Chaos Knights, I get zero rerolls without paying CP. The only knight that gives rerolls is the Desacrator, and it's not making waves.

So, yeah the sheer amount of rerolls is way too much. In my opinion is way too much. Especially the SM stuff.

Being that I also play CSM, I would love something similar that allows rerolls to wound for shooting.

 Elbows wrote:
Yep, the game has leaned heavily toward the "combo these things to (more or less) ignore the need for dice". This sells models pretty well, where a single $35-45 hero can convert over a sub-par unit into something worthwhile.

The overall killiness of the game has left me absolutely cold and I haven't bothered for several months. We did do several games outlawing the re-roll stratagem and it was pretty superb. That Stratagem alone kills any cool moments you can have in the game, which is...hugely unfortunate.

We noticed the same thing. Having the ability to outright re-roll any single dice 1 time per phase seemed to really turn hugely thematic moments into boring ones. But, at the same time it can be the opposite. My Abaddon needed to make a 12 inch charge. I rolled 6+2 and spent a CP to reroll the two and got the 6 I needed. He proceeded to enter a ruined building and went Rouge One Vader on a captain, two lieutenants and a bunch of las-cannon devastators.

The biggest issue to me was that CP regeneration is still silly. I'd rather see the regen gone entirely, and more abilities like Abaddon's +2 added to the mix instead. Aura stacking can get annoying as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:
I was actually discussing this with my friends.

My current tournament army is Chaos Knights, I get zero rerolls without paying CP. The only knight that gives rerolls is the Desacrator, and it's not making waves.

So, yeah the sheer amount of rerolls is way too much. In my opinion is way too much. Especially the SM stuff.

Being that I also play CSM, I would love something similar that allows rerolls to wound for shooting.

Well, we do get VoTW and LtGB (if playing BL) so there is that, and it can be really powerful.

But, yea, outside of a champion, we're bum on wounding.

Re rolls are a Marine, Custodes and Chaos Marine thing. Lower model count, elite armies that have more efficient output. Some other armies have them but not to the same extent.

Ultras are very good at not failing leadership tests - it's their CT bonus. Other armies have other bonuses, some much stronger.

 chimeara wrote:
I was actually discussing this with my friends. I mentioned that back in 4th (when I started) rerolls basically didn't exist.

My current tournament army is Chaos Knights, I get zero rerolls without paying CP. The only knight that gives rerolls is the Desacrator, and it's not making waves.

So, yeah the sheer amount of rerolls is way too much. In my opinion is way too much. Especially the SM stuff.

Being that I also play CSM, I would love something similar that allows rerolls to wound for shooting.

The game is hugely different from several months ago bar IH. And the point of those rolls is that toss up chance right on the edge. The stratagem let's you create more of them other than, "oh, I failed...game over".

While I agree a re-roll can add a fun moment, it more often than not is simply used to avoid a fun moment.

-Important character decides to risk it with a plasma overcharge? Re-roll if he dies.
-A vehicle blows up and it'll be an amazing impact? Re-roll it.
-A wounded psyker rolls perils at the most inopportune time? Re-roll it.
-A desperate final shot which successfully goes through armour? Re-roll it.

etc. It's just another mechanic which removes the importance of a dice roll (it's actually why I dislike re-rolls in all games), and removes the risk from numerous outlier style events, which makes me sad panda.

This was one of the 1st things I noticed upon returning to the 40k tables last year (aug/sept). And it hasn't really changed since. Well, maybe to get even worse....

The games bogged down in so many re-rolls that the only # you don't want to see rolled is a 2.

This was one of the defining features of 7th edition, towards the end when it started to get really bad...

I play guard and even just the sheer volume of shots these days is ridiculous. Guard with FRFSRF rolling is painful for little actual damage.

And then add variable shot weapons and its no wonder games take so much longer.

Roll Variable Shots, Roll Hit, Rerolls, Roll Wound, Rerolls, Roll Saves, Roll Damage, Roll FNP.

 Ishagu wrote:
Re rolls are a Marine, Custodes and Chaos Marine thing. Lower model count, elite armies that have more efficient output. Some other armies have them but not to the same extent.

Ultras are very good at not failing leadership tests - it's their CT bonus. Other armies have other bonuses, some much stronger.

This.

A lot of rules are for regular people, but then are (and ought to be) ignored by elite infantry, which means most of the marine army. If the rules were zeroed around marines, then guardsmen would need a bunch of cumbersome penalties. But they are zeroed around non-marines, so marines and other elite armies need a lot of specials. This isn't all bad as the nature of those specials can vary, and thus differentiate marine factions (look at the amount of variety now compared to when 8th released.)

A system could be written where this difference between elite and regular armies was represented in the core stats instead of the special rules, but that's just not how 40k really is. If it were a d10 system or something then it could.

When you're running on the IGOUGO system and have poor morale and terrain rules, there's only so much you can do in a D6 system huh?

You could actually do plenty with a D6 system, but not in the method that GW does. Keep in mind though, through all of this; GW has one goal: sell models/make money. This means that a clever and well written set of rules that encompasses far more facets of combat/warfare etc. is wasted time/effort to them.

How good do Warhammer 40K rules need to be? Only good enough to keep people buying models. This is not a critique of the writers; I'm sure many are passionate about game design, about the lore, etc...but they're simply not going to be given more pages or more time to write a better rulebook. The rules have to last 3-4 years before a large update, and that's it. It's very much akin to the automotive industry. In the late 80's, early 90's...car makers were building the best cars they ever made. Then the companies realized that people were driving their cars 250-300,000 miles...and that was bad for business.

It's the same here. The rules need to keep people interested just enough for them to play for 3-4 years before the next big edition change (which hopefully does the same). It's not a conspiracy theory, it's simply how this kind of business works, and why you're rarely going to get beautiful or elegant or really well written/designed games when they're attached to a manufacturer of the miniatures.

If you look, for comparison, at a rule set which is not linked to a miniature manufacturer - that rule set has to sell itself on its own merit. It needs to be better written, more enjoyable, more in depth, etc....because that's the selling points, whereas something like Warhammer 40K needs to be "just good enough" to get people buying models.

A lot of people talk about removing IGOUGO (something I've done on my own when my buddies and I play 40K) and it sounds neat, but GW will be doing the math in their offices as to whether or not it would be justified if the current product (and subsequent versions) are good enough to not bother. GW has no interest in investing time/money/effort/salaries/staff into ironing Warhammer 40K into the perfect, balanced, elegant wargame. I know it sounds harsh, but it is what it is. They'll grease the squeaky wheels until the next version of the game comes along. So far it's all working superbly for them - even if we, as the consumer, get the poor end of this equation.

"You could actually do plenty with a D6 system, but not in the method that GW does. Keep in mind though, through all of this; GW has one goal: sell models/make money. This means that a clever and well written set of rules that encompasses far more facets of combat/warfare etc. is wasted time/effort to them."

Literally makes no sense, because a well thought out rules set would double or triple their profits.

I will never buy this argument from people. It isn't based in any sound fact.

I don't care if you buy it or not. It is how many businesses think, and yes it makes sense and it works. I believe you're absolutely delusional if you imagine that a tighter or better written ruleset would suddenly double their sales. That statement is not based on any sound fact, as you put it. Companies that do right better rule sets have to do so, and cannot cut the corners because they don't have a model line to rely on.

GW calculates the small percentage of people who leave the game due to edition/rules changes, vs. the hordes of people brought into the game when a new edition or models comes out. They've identified what works, and it's not spending more time writing better rules. More rules? Sure, you can tell this by the number of books that are pouring out of GW currently. The old adage of time is money is still relevant.

Not sure how any of the OP’s post was a surprise if they’d played in June. Marines etc. already had lots of access to rerolls. It’s part of the design for 8th. They’ve been around since the Indexes, and ways to mitigate or avoid Morale also. Makes it annoying if you can’t ever force Morale to matter but it’s not a new problem. Why the surprise now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:
"You could actually do plenty with a D6 system, but not in the method that GW does. Keep in mind though, through all of this; GW has one goal: sell models/make money. This means that a clever and well written set of rules that encompasses far more facets of combat/warfare etc. is wasted time/effort to them."

Literally makes no sense, because a well thought out rules set would double or triple their profits.

I will never buy this argument from people. It isn't based in any sound fact.

Neither is claiming good rules would double GW’s sales. That’s a hypothesis with no basis. No weight to it whatsoever.

 Elbows wrote:
While I agree a re-roll can add a fun moment, it more often than not is simply used to avoid a fun moment.

-Important character decides to risk it with a plasma overcharge? Re-roll if he dies.
-A vehicle blows up and it'll be an amazing impact? Re-roll it.
-A wounded psyker rolls perils at the most inopportune time? Re-roll it.
-A desperate final shot which successfully goes through armour? Re-roll it.

etc. It's just another mechanic which removes the importance of a dice roll (it's actually why I dislike re-rolls in all games), and removes the risk from numerous outlier style events, which makes me sad panda.

It's funny because when the 8th Ed Daemon book for Fantasy came out and your Great Unclean one insta-gibbed itself when you rolled a double 1 on winds of magic no one thought it was a great, fun addition to the game. That table was almost universally hated because a bad dice roll could cripple your army for a turn.

This to me sounds like complaining for the sake of it. No one is happy when bad dice screw them over and it certainly isn't generally considered "fun" except on very rare occasions. Most "fun" moments are horribly frustrating. The reroll stratagem is a great addition to the game because it give you control over a frustrating element but at a cost that you need to plan ahead for

I find re-rolls fun tbh and lots of our tense/exciting moments come from them!

I find re-rolls in general make resolving basic actions take unreasonably long.

They also skew a number of mechanics in odd ways that break immersion. Plasma is risky to overcharge... unless your lieutenant is nearby, then it's safe. For some reason.

And full re-rolls make some outcomes much more predictable. A unit of BS3+ models with full re-rolls to hit rarely miss.

Lastly, I find that those fun 'my single attack got through and took out Abaddon's last wound' moments don't happen anymore because he just throws a re-roll at it.

All in all it's a slow mechanic that makes the game more statistically predictable, has weird knock-on effects, and sucks the tension right out of critical moments. Not a fan.

I'd much rather see the occasional +1.