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At the beginning of each turn, the Phoenix Lord may choose which exarch power from their shrine list they are using. It is taken in addition to the one they already have.

Maybe add +1PL to their cost just to be safe.

It is going to be ridiculous when karandras can't be as strong as his own exarchs - S5 exarch with claw is strength 10....

I mean I'd rather they were all s/t 5 and then is be happy with them but this at least makes them a bit better...

From a fluff perspective, I could go either way on phoenix lords having access to their aspect's list of exarch powers. On one hand, they're the oldest incarnation of their aspect. They should have plenty of time to learn every trick in the book and write a few of their own down while they're at it.

On the other hand, you can interpret the exarch powers of being permutations of the original teachings of the phoenix lords. An Avenger exarch might get a knack for using monofilament weapons in place of catapults, and then decide that teleportation is really handy for his style of combat, and a few mutations later you get something like the first warp spiders shrine.

Mechanically, giving them access to exarch powers would probably be fine in most cases but also makes it more difficult to balance those powers. You'd suddenly have to consider the effect of those powers in the context of both an exarch statline and a phoenix lord statline.

I think my preferred "fix" for the phoenix lords in the wake of the exarch powers is just to give them all the Jain Zar treatment: redesign them to be individually useful and powerful in their own right.

Look, I'd rather they were:

WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+

4++

Reflecting their 'mini wraithguard in a ninja suit' concept.


I'd even like a rehash of eternal warrior: Half all damage

My biggest bugbear with them is their lack of invulnerable save.

Back when their initiative was high enough that they struck first before most things, their survival was based in badly injuring their opponent first, or killing them outright.

Now with the lack of initiative, they are atrocious..

At least most of the Exarch warrior powers contain an option for an invulnerable save or equivalent.

They're just ridiculous at the moment and I am very disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to create units that truly reflect the eternal warriors with up to 12,000 years of fighting experience compounded by all the additional souls merged with them.

They've been eating the souls of other eldar so much they should be close to daemonhood by now...





My

Hellebore wrote:
Look, I'd rather they were:

WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+

4++

Reflecting their 'mini wraithguard in a ninja suit' concept.


I'd even like a rehash of eternal warrior: Half all damage

My biggest bugbear with them is their lack of invulnerable save.

Back when their initiative was high enough that they struck first before most things, their survival was based in badly injuring their opponent first, or killing them outright.

Now with the lack of initiative, they are atrocious..

At least most of the Exarch warrior powers contain an option for an invulnerable save or equivalent.

They're just ridiculous at the moment and I am very disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to create units that truly reflect the eternal warriors with up to 12,000 years of fighting experience compounded by all the additional souls merged with them.

They've been eating the souls of other eldar so much they should be close to daemonhood by now...

I feel like part of the weirdness with phoenix lords is that GW gave them lore suggesting they're Dynasty Warriors style heroes that like to go one-on-one with daemon princes, but then they never actually wanted Eldar to have hero characters that actually packed that kind of a punch. So instead they've started giving them buffs that apply to their aspects. The problem then is that you have to make the buff so good or playstyle changing that it warrants spending points on the PL instead of another buffer HQ or simply more models of their aspect, and so far they haven't really done that either. Heck. Some of the phoenix lords still don't even really want to do the same jobs as their aspects (Maugan and Baharroth and Fuegan kind of want to charge into the fray to make the most of their offense while their aspects would often prefer to avoid melee).

I guess what I"m saying is that I get where you're coming from. There's an argument to be made for phoenix lords being both way more expensive and way more potent (either in terms of raw offense or buffs) than they currently are. If we're going to keep them close to their current price tags, however, I think what they've done with Jain Zar is a decent direction to go in. Her Storm of Silence rule gives her the potential to cut up a ton of dudes in a single turn (very fluffy) while still keeping her at a reasonable level when dueling enemy characters, monsters, etc and still giving her a reason to hang out near her banshee pals.

As for making them strength and toughness 5... I don't know. They're still living beings in a suit just like other aspect warriors. I always assumed the higher strength and toughness represented either their superior training or some sort of Iron Man style strength enhancers that modern craftworlders couldn't replicate for some reason.

Not having an invul save is usually less of a big deal this edition. You still have a 5+ save against AP 3 weapons. That's why Drazhar's Eternal Warrior 5+ invul is considered kind of meh; he's usually saving on a 5+ or better anyway.

Something I've been kicking around is giving Phoenix Lords (and certain other units) "special moves" in the form of stratagems. The BL novels kind of frame phoenix lords as talented warriors whose truly legendary feats are the result of the will of Asuryan kicking in rather than being something they can reliably do on command. So letting them perform above their weight class a few times a game via stratagems seems like a decent way to represent that.

You could let Jain Zarr keep her old Disarming Strike, for instance, but let her spend CP to use Storm of Silence situationally when it suits her. You could let Maugan shoot while locked in combat. You could let Fuegan auto-explode that vehicle he just killed rather than rolling for it. Stuff like that. It's cool and thematic when a marine unit turns on the gas to fight twice, but it doesn't feel all that bad to be on the receiving end of it because you know they had to spend 3CP to do it.

Have you guys even played Jain Zar, old or new one? After dropping to 115 points she became quite fun to play.

The easiest way to fix her would be to allow taking that Disarm back, since it was excellent. Now I am afraid moving her to anything with Thunderhammers.

They should have compensated for removing that ability by giving her invul or not touching that ability.

I did not play her with her new ability yet, but I will give it a go now that I know she has a 40 mm base.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Have you guys even played Jain Zar, old or new one? After dropping to 115 points she became quite fun to play.

The easiest way to fix her would be to allow taking that Disarm back, since it was excellent. Now I am afraid to moving her to anything with Thunderhammers.

They should have compensated for removing that ability by giving her invul or not touching that ability.

I did not play her with her new ability yet, but I will give it a go now that I know she has a 40 mm base.

Haven't played her with the new rules yet, but they look fun on paper. I frequently found myself wishing my phoenix lords could bully a mob of dudes like in the old days, and this rule seems like a decent way to do that.

I've used her current rules a bit in 8th edition and quite a bit in past editions. She's not terrible for her cost, but you have to send her into a target that only has 1 or 2 models with special weapons that meaningfully threaten her so that you can use her disarm to keep her safe. So against a squad with uniform weapons (most daemons, genestealers, uniformly equipped elite marines, incubi, etc.), she's about as durable as a trio of terminators. Which is to say "sort of but not very."

Basically, her current rules make her good at duels and at charging squads with a single power weapon on their sergeant. A fun, situationally useful scalpel. Her new rules, on paper, look like they'll be a bit less good at dueling and bullying sergeants, but she'll be much better at hurting a wider range of targets in general. You don't have to have her completely surrounded to get a few extra swings out of Storm of Silence, for instance.

And remember, disarming strike is now available to the banshees that should be jogging next to her.

They spend a lot of time roaming around by themselves though.

Going on quests, Ronin style daring do etc. They just don't travel with a posses of buffables to justify only being useful with them.


Points cost is the last thing on my mind, I'd just like them to be even close to what they're described like, rather than the 3rd rate marine captains they currently are. We could make guilliman worse and drop his points as well, but thats not the point.



There are three areas I don't think they are being represented correctly..

1 resilience - they are warp powered animated wraithbone suits that can't starve or tire, can't suffer flesh wounds etc.

And they represent that with 2+ armour, 6w and t4...

I'd take s5 t6 sv3+ (ie identical to a wraithguard) over that... Flesh and blood marines can take a rule that means you never wound them on less than 3+ which is ridiculous by comparison.


2 speed due to their warp powered Ninja abilities, they should be dodging incoming shots like a Jedi, and that doesn't even get represented by their initiative any more.

They get no invuln, no nothing


3 skill they invented the aspects, they yshould know and have mastered all the ways their aspect functions.


Back in 2nd ed when they had a generic exarch skill list, it made sense they didn't have all of them. They weren't all relevant to their aspects.

Now they have specific aspect lists, it's ridiculous for them not to.

Hellebore wrote:
They spend a lot of time roaming around by themselves though.

Going on quests, Ronin style daring do etc. They just don't travel with a posses of buffables to justify only being useful with them.

Points cost is the last thing on my mind, I'd just like them to be even close to what they're described like, rather than the 3rd rate marine captains they currently are. We could make guilliman worse and drop his points as well, but thats not the point.

I don't really disagree. Their rules make them out to be aspect buffers who are just a smidge more lethal and durable than a normal exarch. Their lore suggests they should be close to something like a solitaire in terms of lethality. They don't not hang out with their own aspect though. Asurman has his Crystal Sons after all.

There are three areas I don't think they are being represented correctly..

1 resilience - they are warp powered animated wraithbone suits that can't starve or tire, can't suffer flesh wounds etc.

And they represent that with 2+ armour, 6w and t4...

I'd take s5 t6 sv3+ (ie identical to a wraithguard) over that... Flesh and blood marines can take a rule that means you never wound them on less than 3+ which is ridiculous by comparison.

You seem to believe that Phoenix Lords are wraith constructs of some sort? is their armor confirmed to contain wraithbone elements somewhere? I vaguely recall some 2nd edition lore about exarch suits being self-repairing and its wearer being litlte more than a half-dead husk, but there's also lore about exarchs who basically die of old age.

Regardless, there is a flesh and blood space elf in that armor. They can definitely suffer a "flesh wound." You just have to jab your knife through some really high quality armor to get at the soft elf meats inside. The armor may or may not have some sort of ability to sustain its wearer's physical needs, but I'm not aware of anything stating that they're incapable of tiring out.

So with that in mind, making them as strong and durable as constructs made almost entirely out of wraith bone seems like a bit of a stretch. I mean, you could buff their stats like that and claim that their suits just have really good strength enhancers or something, but PLs are not wraith constructs.

2 speed due to their warp powered Ninja abilities, they should be dodging incoming shots like a Jedi, and that doesn't even get represented by their initiative any more.

They get no invuln, no nothing

I don't disagree with you here. Not having an initiative stat is felt by these guys. It would be easy to justify an invul (see above about invuls being a bit redundant on them though) or a to-hit penalty or something. PLs are basically wuxia characters.

3 skill they invented the aspects, they yshould know and have mastered all the ways their aspect functions.

Back in 2nd ed when they had a generic exarch skill list, it made sense they didn't have all of them. They weren't all relevant to their aspects.

Now they have specific aspect lists, it's ridiculous for them not to.

Eh. Fluff-wise, it would be easy enough to justify. I'm just not sure it's good game design. You're talking about giving them access to 6 extra rules, only one of which is active at a time (requiring bookkeeping). These extra rules are designed with non-character squads in mind meaning they're potentially more or less powerful than intended on a PL. You could probably get the message across by letting each PL choose one exarch power during deployment or something instead. It would be a lot less to keep track of and would basically let them pick the best power for the enemy on the other side of the table. You still have to worry about powers being stronger or weaker than intended though. Increasing the number of mortal wounds generated by Baharroth and Karandras by 50% might be an issue, for instance.


Basically, I don't mind the idea of a stronger version of the phoenix lords. You could say such profiles represent them while they're actively cutting strands of fate with the power of Asuryan or whatever. The trick is to create datasheets that represent their lore without making them too powerful, too expensive, or too complicated to be in good taste.

As for the variance, each successive Shrine has it's own style. So any given Dire Avenger Shrine's fighting style is not necessarily a subset of Asurmen's fighting style; the original students trained under Asurmen, but left to found their own shrines at some point.

In fact, the first set of Asurmen's students fight nothing like Dire Avengers. They're the founders entirely different Aspects.

I like the idea that the Exarch traits can vary from the Phoenix Lord. It shows that the Shrines continue to diverge.

You seem to believe that Phoenix Lords are wraith constructs of some sort? is their armor confirmed to contain wraithbone elements somewhere? I vaguely recall some 2nd edition lore about exarch suits being self-repairing and its wearer being litlte more than a half-dead husk

Yes Phoenix Lord armor is an infinity circuit that consumes its host. I venture it is in one of the two third edition codexes, since that’s where I would have read about it.

The original RT model for the avatar, this one was a 28mm model and didn’t have anything to do with Khaine, the pantheon hadn’t been invented yet. He was a regular sized suit of armor at the center of the craftworld’s infinity circuit, and when he was animated he was an avatar of the craftworld gestalt, not of a god.

Someone had to put on the armor, as a sacrifice. That’s where the Young King background originated but it’s also where Phoenix lords come from. As far as I know the people who put in Phoenix lord armor are turned to dust.

You’re right, while a shrine exarch is still somewhat of an eldar who is now possessed by the stored souls of previous hosts, Phoenix lord armor is strong enough to obliterate them and subsume them into the armor’s 10,000 years of immortal life. Maugan Ra is literally the same maugan ra as when he was created, just with another 20+ spirits powering the armor.

pelicaniforce wrote:

You seem to believe that Phoenix Lords are wraith constructs of some sort? is their armor confirmed to contain wraithbone elements somewhere? I vaguely recall some 2nd edition lore about exarch suits being self-repairing and its wearer being litlte more than a half-dead husk

Yes Phoenix Lord armor is an infinity circuit that consumes its host. I venture it is in one of the two third edition codexes, since that’s where I would have read about it.

The original RT model for the avatar, this one was a 28mm model and didn’t have anything to do with Khaine, the pantheon hadn’t been invented yet. He was a regular sized suit of armor at the center of the craftworld’s infinity circuit, and when he was animated he was an avatar of the craftworld gestalt, not of a god.

Someone had to put on the armor, as a sacrifice. That’s where the Young King background originated but it’s also where Phoenix lords come from. As far as I know the people who put in Phoenix lord armor are turned to dust.

You’re right, while a shrine exarch is still somewhat of an eldar who is now possessed by the stored souls of previous hosts, Phoenix lord armor is strong enough to obliterate them and subsume them into the armor’s 10,000 years of immortal life. Maugan Ra is literally the same maugan ra as when he was created, just with another 20+ spirits powering the armor.

While phoenix lord and exarch armor does act as a sort of mini-infinity circuit for all the souls stuck in the armor, they're still more like dudes in armor than wraith constructs. Consider, for instance, that an exarch is capable of taking off his armor in order to don Karandras's armor in Path of the Warrior. Consider also that wraith constructs are really only considered "lost" if the spirit stones housed within them are damaged. Phoenix Lords seem to be killed by conventional means (like stabbing or evisceration) that wouldn't be possible if they were just full of dust. So giving them wraith construct strength and toughness doesn't really seem appropriate.

PL armor pretty much wipes out the mind of the wearer and replaces it with that of the original PL, but I'm not aware of any fluff indicating the same happens to their bodies. If the armor just needed a sacrifice avatar style, then PL's wouldn't need someone to don the armor to ressurect the PL mid-battle, right? It's not like the guy that killed Karandras in Path of the Warrior just knocked the wind out of Karandras's armor or ran down an energy meter or something. He killed the body inside the armor, taking the PL out of the fight until a different body donned the armor.

I don’t think it’s true at all that the wearer’s mind is replaced by the original Lord, because the original lord also had their personality wiped out. These are exarchs, which eldar regard as complete abominations and, properly, lower level exarchs only appear every so often in an entire craftworld. When an elder becomes the first appearance of a Phoenix Lord they are completely consumed by the bloody path of Khaine. It’s not as if they have favorite nephews or a weakness for a childhood treat. They’ve become avatars of an aspect of Khaine, their souls have essentially ascended to daemonhood while still in a mortal body.

The elder have sanitized, artificial substitutes for the warp and the afterlife. If a mortal dies in extreme devotion to a path, it’s likely for their personality to be dissolved and incorporated into a part of a daemon who has that specific portfolio, eg sometimes the warp generally, sometimes a god generally, but often there’s a greater daemon or prince with that specific circumstance. The eldar obviously can’t have that kind of abomination in their infinity circuit. Like chaos chosen cults are incorporated into daemons after death, the chosen of Khaine are segregated into their own daemons, the Phoenix lords.

Just numerically you can know that there are over twenty of the most powerful and dreaded eldar souls bound into and inhabiting the Phoenix lord armor. This is the same stuff that gives psykers and daemons their power and that in any other civilization would be used to make a daemon prince / minor power to sponsor your Path to Glory warband.

The reason they appear in-game as squad leaders is because of the very compressed design of third edition. However that also caused techmarines to appear as part of command squads, and we know that has no relation to background. No, exarchs themselves are vastly more rare and powerful than depicted either in rules or in some of the bleed over from rules/kits to background.

The wearers mind is absolutely replaced by the original Lord and those original Lords are still the person they were before they became a Phoenix Lord as well.

I'm pretty sure that exarchs are functionally squad leaders as they all teach their own Shrine their method of fighting and lead them in battle as well. The gameplay disparity comes from the Exarchs being far weaker and less important rather than how many there are IMO.

That’s not true, it wouldn’t even be possible for a craftworld to ensure that their is always an exarch around to teach in their shrines, it’s not something you’d be promoted to like being assistant shift manager. Even in the third edition list where they became squad leaders the background was still that eldar are terrified of them, and that a shrine often has no exarchs, that the armor hangs empty in the shrine. Once again it was just the way the kit and the rules were changed that made them kind of obligatory, because Chambers decided that every squad model was going to have one wound, independent characters would stay in HQ, and cc upgrades could only be done for characters.

So if you have a shrine with no exarch who teaches the students? Nobody can, therefore every active shrine must have a living exarch.

In fact if we’re using Black Library then Shadow Point and I believe Farseer both have aspect warriors who’ve never seen an exarch, and I think the third edition codex also. That part isn’t something I’m speculating on it’s just what it is, exarchs aren’t a teaching position they’re people who essentially have contracted a disease.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I don’t think it’s true at all that the wearer’s mind is replaced by the original Lord, because the original lord also had their personality wiped out. These are exarchs, which eldar regard as complete abominations and, properly, lower level exarchs only appear every so often in an entire craftworld. When an elder becomes the first appearance of a Phoenix Lord they are completely consumed by the bloody path of Khaine.

Eh. This is kind of ambiguous. Yes, Phoenix Lords are basically exarchs, and yes they're obsessed with battle and feel the touch of Khaine. On the other hand, being direct students of the hand of Asuryan seems to maybe negate some of the normal exarchy blood lust. Asurmen seems to be big on the concept of inner balance and the idea of channeling your urges into something relatively productive and healthy, after all. Phoenix Lords are among the first to take up the path system, and exarchs are considered a failure of that system.

Normal exarchs can't hold conversations with non-warrior craftworlders without freaking them out and making them worry they're about to get axe murdered. Jain Zar, by contrast, can hold lengthy negotiations and crack jokes. Asurmen straight up lobbed off some of his blood lust and bound it to his personal ship. Also, Jain Zar remembers her pre-phoenix life as a gladiator, and Asurman seems to care about his brother in his sword. The PLs are definitely touched by Khaine, but they're not frothy-mouthed animals. The touch of Khaine is a blood red filter for the mind that's already there.

It’s not as if they have favorite nephews or a weakness for a childhood treat. They’ve become avatars of an aspect of Khaine, their souls have essentially ascended to daemonhood while still in a mortal body.

I mean, they sort of do have favored nephews and such. see above about them remembering their past and the people in it. They've just been around so long and been through so many personal and societal changes that they don't really have any domestic touchstones any more. But again, they're not total slaves to Khaine. Jain Zar straight up gets in an argument with Khaine and goes, "Hey dad! This is your metaphorical daughter! Tell Ulthwe to knock off this blood thirsty nonsense. You're just wasting their lives. We need a scalpel, not an all out war."

So they're very much aspects of Khaine, but they're not just extensions of his will.

The elder have sanitized, artificial substitutes for the warp and the afterlife... the chosen of Khaine are segregated into their own daemons, the Phoenix lords.

Actually, we know that Alaitoc's infinity circuit does in fact have plenty of aspects slain while wearing their war masks.They sort of keep the angry spirits away from the rest of the ghosts, but they're in there. Apparently they prefer to use such spirits as wraith guard before calling on gentler spirits.

pelicaniforce wrote:
In fact if we’re using Black Library then Shadow Point and I believe Farseer both have aspect warriors who’ve never seen an exarch, and I think the third edition codex also. That part isn’t something I’m speculating on it’s just what it is, exarchs aren’t a teaching position they’re people who essentially have contracted a disease.

They very much are a teaching position. I'm taking that from things much more recent than 16 years ago.

A5 and a 4++ standard. Let's test that first.

That they aren't base S5/T5 is a travesty.

pm713 wrote:
The wearers mind is absolutely replaced by the original Lord and those original Lords are still the person they were before they became a Phoenix Lord as well.

I'm pretty sure that exarchs are functionally squad leaders as they all teach their own Shrine their method of fighting and lead them in battle as well. The gameplay disparity comes from the Exarchs being far weaker and less important rather than how many there are IMO.

The new soul joined to a Phoenix Lord is lost in a sea of personality/emotion. The new soul doesn't have 0 impact on the Phoenix Lord; it has negligible impact.

Which makes sense, whether or not Phoenix Lords are just older/more soul-heavy Exarchs. Because a soul joining a conciousness formed of 1,000 souls is going to be much more drowned out than a soul joining a concionsness of 10 souls.

The Phoenix Lord is changed. It has one more soul, one more set of memories. But Bob The Younger's skill and memories are unlikely to have much impact on Asurmen, and all the skills and memories he already has.

A drop of water doesn't noticeably change a sea. But the water in that drop isn't destroyed. It's now part of the sea.

 Daba wrote:
That they aren't base S5/T5 is a travesty.

How so? They all have non-optional melee weapons that let them wound marines on 3s or 2s. Making them S5 means their strength is to a space marine what a space marine's strength is to a normal human. Phoenix Lord armor probably boosts its wearer's strength, but I'm not sure they should be winning arm wrestling contests against orks nobz.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Daba wrote:
That they aren't base S5/T5 is a travesty.

How so? They all have non-optional melee weapons that let them wound marines on 3s or 2s. Making them S5 means their strength is to a space marine what a space marine's strength is to a normal human. Phoenix Lord armor probably boosts its wearer's strength, but I'm not sure they should be winning arm wrestling contests against orks nobz.

That is exactly what they would do. A Phoenix Lord should have strength in excess of anything other than a primarch, robot or literal monster as they are more like a wraithguard/daemon than mortal at this stage.

The suit thing is more in the domain of Exarchs, who are vastly underpowered in recent editions (note the fluff is largely the same). When first introduced, Exarchs could have more S or T than current Primarchs could due to their supernatural powers. Maybe that's excessive in this age, but it was still a supernatural power in excess of anything ordinary.

Recent rules and people not paying attention have done Exarchs a nasty.

 Daba wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Daba wrote:
That they aren't base S5/T5 is a travesty.

How so? They all have non-optional melee weapons that let them wound marines on 3s or 2s. Making them S5 means their strength is to a space marine what a space marine's strength is to a normal human. Phoenix Lord armor probably boosts its wearer's strength, but I'm not sure they should be winning arm wrestling contests against orks nobz.

That is exactly what they would do. A Phoenix Lord should have strength in excess of anything other than a primarch, robot or literal monster as they are more like a wraithguard/daemon than mortal at this stage.

"More like a wraithguard" in what respect? They're basically extra old exarchs with fancier suits and some supernatural mojo from Asuryan on their side. They're not wraith constructs any more than a normal exarch is. And that supernatural angle doesn't necessarily translate to super strength. Damonettes aren't exactly buff in 40k terms. Or nurglings for that matter.

The suit thing is more in the domain of Exarchs, who are vastly underpowered in recent editions (note the fluff is largely the same). When first introduced, Exarchs could have more S or T than current Primarchs could due to their supernatural powers. Maybe that's excessive in this age, but it was still a supernatural power in excess of anything ordinary.

Recent rules and people not paying attention have done Exarchs a nasty.

What are you basing that on? I just looked at my 2nd edition eldar codex. Exarchs were Strength 4 just like "pirate heroes" (corsair pirnces basically) and warlock heroes. Phoenix Lords were 5, so just a smidge stronger than exarchs. If we accept that 2nd edition strength 4 has been lumped in with 8th edition strength 3, then converting 2nd edition strength 5 to 8th edition strength 4 seems about right. Exarchs could purchase "crushing blow" which upped their strength in melee, just like modern PL and exarch weapons often do, but it didn't give them any sort of bonus to the equivalent of a 7th edition "strength test."
So looking at the oldest eldar rules I have, I don't see where you're coming from.

From a lore perspective (every bit of codex fluff I remember, Black Library novels, campaign books), phoenix lords (and exarchs) are often described as being supernaturally fast and skillful. Their advanced tech and training making it easier for them to hurt things totally comes through. What we don't see is phoenix lords juggling dreadnaughts in the air or bench pressing tanks. They seem to be all about skillful attacks and wuxia-style over-the-top dextrous/agile stunts. They're not big on tackling space marines and suplexing orks.

We've had this discussion before, but here are my main complaints.

1) Generally, yes they should be far more "bad ass" than they are. They're simply not a real threat or something anyone is scared of.

2) 2+ armour with 5-6 wounds at Toughness 4 is simply nothing to worry about in this edition of 40K.

3) Combine the relative lack of staying power with the fact that most of them need or want to get close in...the one place where people can target characters. It also puts them in rapid-fire range, rage of front-rank-fire-second-rank-fire, range of Orks which can throw 6+ attacks per model, Termagants shooting 3-6 times per model, etc. 12-18" range is the most lethal place on the tabletop. To be there you need to be incredibly tough to survive, and then you need to be dealing so much damage you can protect yourself.

4) Several of them are way too expensive. Given the madness that exists with stuff like the Iron Father (who is hands down better than every single Phoenix Lord, while also being cheaper than all of them, except Baharroth) is...comical. I can take Asurmen for the cost someone else is taking a four-lascannon 2+ BS Relic Contemptor dreadnought. But at least he has two avenger shuriken catapults! As they stand right now, not one of them should be more than 110-120 points.

5) That last part brings me to another issue; wargear. GW has officially gone off the rails with power creep...and Phoenix Lords have almost zero worthwhile wargear, particularly at their points cost. This would be a simple fix, that doesn't "solve" them, but at least would allow them to do something interesting once in a while. Karandras still has a completely pointless Biting Blade...which has no rules or stats to EVER make you need to run it over the Scorpions Claw. Asurmen has 4 shots at 18", Strength 4, no AP except on sixes...for a 175 point legendary character who is tens of thousands of years old? The guy can't shoot his way out of a paper bag. I'm not suggesting we break the game, but give him SOMETHING. "Vambraces of Vaal: Assault 6, Range 18", Strength 4, AP -2, Damage1", just something with a tiny bit of edge or number of shots to make you occasionally feel like you might be playing a Phoenix Lord. Give Karandras an alternate chain sword, but it has to have some reason to wield it -even if it just grants one bonus attach like a normal chainsword. Give Baharroth some better version of the Hawk's Talon.

6) In short, for models that need to get close, they need to do more to justify their cost - particularly when each of them costs far more than a fully functioning squad of their own Aspect (which is often the better choice by far).

7) Give them a couple of stratagems, even if they're generic <ASPECT WARRIOR> stratagems or particularly aimed at their actual aspect (they all carry those keywords anyway). This is something GW has really been lacking, dedicated <ASPECT WARRIOR> stratagems which would go a long way to helping those poor bastards. If the Phoenix Lord could occasionally use one as well it'd be nice. Oh, and give Phoenix Lords a resurrection Stratagem if an Exarch of their Aspect within 3-6" sacrifices themselves you bring back the Phoenix Lord with 3 wounds or something. Fluffy and kinda cool. Maybe even back at full wounds since you'd be "paying" 15-40 points to do it depending on the Exarch.

A Phoenix Lord should absolutely be on par with a strong Chapter Master, and should be some of the most deadly units in the game in their area...they're simply not. I was actually sad to see they barely did anything to Jain Zar (though a points drop may still be possible). They boosted her ability to attack large groups, but zero survivability upgrades. She should have a simple blanket -1 to hit at all times or something similar. Each Phoenix Lord could have a slightly different way of "being tough".

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Daba wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Daba wrote:
That they aren't base S5/T5 is a travesty.

How so? They all have non-optional melee weapons that let them wound marines on 3s or 2s. Making them S5 means their strength is to a space marine what a space marine's strength is to a normal human. Phoenix Lord armor probably boosts its wearer's strength, but I'm not sure they should be winning arm wrestling contests against orks nobz.

That is exactly what they would do. A Phoenix Lord should have strength in excess of anything other than a primarch, robot or literal monster as they are more like a wraithguard/daemon than mortal at this stage.

"More like a wraithguard" in what respect? They're basically extra old exarchs with fancier suits and some supernatural mojo from Asuryan on their side. They're not wraith constructs any more than a normal exarch is. And that supernatural angle doesn't necessarily translate to super strength. Damonettes aren't exactly buff in 40k terms. Or nurglings for that matter.

The suit isn't really a flesh Eldar anymore but animated by the spirits within. You see a regeneration in a WD short where Karandras has visible holes in him while is walking around when an Exarch finds him, and the Exarch who then joins Karandras which completely heals the armour. GW likely isn't completely consistent in their representation of them, but the suiting up was an ordinary Exarch thing mostly.

The suit thing is more in the domain of Exarchs, who are vastly underpowered in recent editions (note the fluff is largely the same). When first introduced, Exarchs could have more S or T than current Primarchs could due to their supernatural powers. Maybe that's excessive in this age, but it was still a supernatural power in excess of anything ordinary.

Recent rules and people not paying attention have done Exarchs a nasty.

What are you basing that on? I just looked at my 2nd edition eldar codex. Exarchs were Strength 4 just like "pirate heroes" (corsair pirnces basically) and warlock heroes. Phoenix Lords were 5, so just a smidge stronger than exarchs. If we accept that 2nd edition strength 4 has been lumped in with 8th edition strength 3, then converting 2nd edition strength 5 to 8th edition strength 4 seems about right. Exarchs could purchase "crushing blow" which upped their strength in melee, just like modern PL and exarch weapons often do, but it didn't give them any sort of bonus to the equivalent of a 7th edition "strength test."
So looking at the oldest eldar rules I have, I don't see where you're coming from.

In 1st edition, you could roll a T8 or T8 Exarch if you were lucky with very strong (crushing blow) or very tough. It was an edge case (which is why I said it was OTT) but definitely possible.

From a lore perspective (every bit of codex fluff I remember, Black Library novels, campaign books), phoenix lords (and exarchs) are often described as being supernaturally fast and skillful. Their advanced tech and training making it easier for them to hurt things totally comes through. What we don't see is phoenix lords juggling dreadnaughts in the air or bench pressing tanks. They seem to be all about skillful attacks and wuxia-style over-the-top dextrous/agile stunts. They're not big on tackling space marines and suplexing orks.

Maugan Ra vs. large Tyranids

The fact that she doesn't have an invuln save means she is put on the shelf for anything outside of a narrative game.

2+ save at T4 and 6W means sure, she'll have a good chance at killing whatever she charges but will then auto die to whatever is pointed her way next.

 Daba wrote:

The suit isn't really a flesh Eldar anymore but animated by the spirits within. You see a regeneration in a WD short where Karandras has visible holes in him while is walking around when an Exarch finds him, and the Exarch who then joins Karandras which completely heals the armour. GW likely isn't completely consistent in their representation of them, but the suiting up was an ordinary Exarch thing mostly.

Fair. That would be inkeeping with the, "You misunderstand the nature of a phoenix lord," line from the Jain Zar novel. I'm still of the belief that you kill a phoenix lord in more or less the same way you kill a mortal. If you cut Baharoth's jugular, he might cockroach around a little as the suit puppets the dying body within, but killing the mortal body still seems to be the suit's weak point. I'm also not sure that necessarily justifies Toughness 5. It sounds a bit more like an out-of-combat repair method than a mid-battle Wolverine/Deadpool healing factor.

But T5 wouldn't be that hard to justify. Again, you can always just say the armor is simply that good.

In 1st edition, you could roll a T8 or T8 Exarch if you were lucky with very strong (crushing blow) or very tough. It was an edge case (which is why I said it was OTT) but definitely possible.

Also fair, but I think exarchs have had their raw physical prowess toned down quite a bit for long enough that we shouldn't try to reflect a T8 exarch in modern rules. For quite a while now, exarchs have been fast and skilled but not necessarily all that strong or tough. An exarch might hit you abnormally hard with a "crushing blow" type rule, but that's probably more like an Iron Fist/wuxia movie special attack than a reflection of his ability to bench press weight.

Maugan Ra vs. large Tyranids

You'll have to help me out. What Maugan Ra vs 'nids scene am I forgetting? Was it a moment in Valedor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
The fact that she doesn't have an invuln save means she is put on the shelf for anything outside of a narrative game.

2+ save at T4 and 6W means sure, she'll have a good chance at killing whatever she charges but will then auto die to whatever is pointed her way next.

I mean, I don't feel that it's particularly taboo to give PLs an invul save, but just how good a save does a character need to have to not be "put on the shelf?" As-is, she still has a 5+ save against AP-3 weapons. Is a standard 4+ invul really a significant enough boost to take her from a shelf-sitter to battle ready?

Wyldhunt wrote:that's probably more like an Iron Fist/wuxia movie special attack than a reflection of his ability to bench press weight.

No, any eldar is physically superior to their human equivalent, if maybe a little in strength and more in everything else. Any regular aspect warrior, who devotes every moment of their day to combat training, could easily be s4. After all that’s puny compared to physical stats of the now-standard primaris marine, who has the remaining beefiness of t4 w2 and a2(3) over a regular aspect.

To me this has nothing to do with a Phoenix lord, whom I believe is powered mostly by the spirit stones and only uses each new exarch to anchor their consciousness in the materium for a few extra decades.

I'm picturing a striking scorpion dead lifting a land raider (per the Salamanders omnibus), punching an ork across the room, and crushing enemy weapons in their hands.

"Yeah, I work out., bro. Do a little a crossfit. It's all about focusing on your goals bro. When you think about it, like, a land raider's not even all that heavy, you know? Back on the craftworld, my cousin on the path of the poet would bench press suits of terminator armor all the time, so lifting a tank like a space marine is like, nothing. Because I work out."