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Every time I make an army list for pure Kabal, I really dislike that there is only one generic HQ choice for a list.
2 archons just does not make sense narratively, 3 with spearheads is just dissapointing.

What do you think could be added to add more support, and keep on theme?

Honestly the way the DE codex was handled was...not good at all.

The best way to have made it easier would've been to be able to mix in the Cults, Kabals, and Covens without losing the bonuses of those particular ones, so long as one HQ is present in the detachment. This would help get around that restriction of being so limited in HQ choices, but there should be secondary generic choices I agree.

For the particular question though? It depends what you want said HQ to perform. A basic rerolling of 1's to wound is always a good start, but it lacks imagination.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly the way the DE codex was handled was...not good at all.

The best way to have made it easier would've been to be able to mix in the Cults, Kabals, and Covens without losing the bonuses of those particular ones, so long as one HQ is present in the detachment. This would help get around that restriction of being so limited in HQ choices, but there should be secondary generic choices I agree.

For the particular question though? It depends what you want said HQ to perform. A basic rerolling of 1's to wound is always a good start, but it lacks imagination.

I’d love the idea of the archons bodyguards being a unit as a second hq choice. Each adding buffs to the archon. Like a deny, absorbing wounds etc

Lifeistorment wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly the way the DE codex was handled was...not good at all.

The best way to have made it easier would've been to be able to mix in the Cults, Kabals, and Covens without losing the bonuses of those particular ones, so long as one HQ is present in the detachment. This would help get around that restriction of being so limited in HQ choices, but there should be secondary generic choices I agree.

For the particular question though? It depends what you want said HQ to perform. A basic rerolling of 1's to wound is always a good start, but it lacks imagination.

I’d love the idea of the archons bodyguards being a unit as a second hq choice. Each adding buffs to the archon. Like a deny, absorbing wounds etc

Oh they were handled absolutely terribly too. The fact Incubi don't get any Kabal benefits is annoying too to me but YMMV on that. They also need something that shoots, didn't their helmets use to do that?

So you want Dracons added back in? Yea I could support that.

What were Dracons?

I had a whole post , like, a year ago with a bunch of secondary HQs and updated named characters. I won't repost the whole thing, but my wishlist is basically...

Generic
Dracons - basically potential successors to the archon. Most recently, they were a sergeant for trueborn, but I'd love them to come back as HQs like they used to be. I'd be pretty happy with a worse archon that trades the shadowfield for a 4+ invul and loses the reroll aura. Ideally, I'd like dracons and archons to regain access to a lengthy armory including arcane weaponry, but that's unlikely to happen.

Archite - A more expensive succubus that can actually kill somethings; especially enemy characters. The current succubus is cheap, which is cool, but it's quite frustrating that she's generally worse at killing stuff than the archon (given that killing stuff is part of he job description), and it's a bit insulting that she can't reliably trade blows with actual beatstick HQs. So I'd like the archite just straight up have more attacks, a better, invul save, and a decent multi-damage weapon. You could ditch the reroll aura and steal Lelith's anti-character rule too.

Lhamean - I'd like to split the lhamean up into unit of 1 wound, 2 attack models (because I converted 10 lhameans up in 7th edition), and an HQ character that buffs the archon rather than the other way around. Let her select a single archon model pregame and give his poison weapons a buff. Maybe raise their damage characteristic by 1 or something. You have a poison specialist on your payroll. Let's see the results of that.

Hierarch - An incubus HQ. A bit messier post-Drazhar update, but I'd like this guy to basically be an HQ klaivex that basically gives incubi in your army their own chapter tactic. My pitch at the time was to choose one of the following:
* Gain access to 2 blasters or shredders per 5 models in the incubi unit. Basically a throwback to oldschool incubi.
* Grants the hierarch and klaivexes a bloodstrone (AP-3 strength 3 flamer) that shuts down overwatch if it kills at least one model in the shooting phase.
* Makes a character chosen pregame untargetable while they're within 6" of the character and closer to the character than the attacker. Throwback to incubi being bodyguards.

Solarch - Basically a solarite with +1 attacks and wounds. Like the hierarch, he would give your scourges one of the following chapter tactics:
* Move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty.
* +1 to hit models with fly.
* Ignore cover if the scourge unit is physically higher off the ground than their target ("spire snipes").

Shadow King - Basically a nightfiend with +1 attacks and +2 wounds. Yet another character that grants a chapter tactic. This time to your mandrakes. I'd also give him some spooky wargear options, but I won't go into that here.
* Improve balefire blast AP by 1.
* Move a number of inches equal to the turn number immediatley after deepstriking. (Sneaky shadow ninjas.)
* Deny the witch once per phase as though you were a psyker (runes of Aelindratch)


And of course, bringing back the option to generic HQs wings, boards, and bikes.

NAMED CHARACTERS
Kheradruakh the Decapitator - Sort of kind of like a drkuhari version of an eversor or calidus. I like the idea of letting him have a chance of doing mortal wounds each turn he's in reserves. Specifically, to units within 6" of a character unit chosen pregame. He's picking off those standing between him and his prey.

Lady Malys - My personal favorite as a Poisoned Tongue player. Take an archon. Trade the shadowfield for a 4+ invul. Let her deny psychic powers once per turn. Give her a CP recycling mechanic if she's your warlord. Give her a djinn blade. Nice and simple. Lets Poisoned Tongue players actually have some of that "Smarter Than You" swagger GW seems to have accidentally given those Black Heart dullards.

Kuellah the Vile - Basically an archon with a phantasm launcher and a vaguely harlequins kiss-esque weapon. Give her a special rule that lets her immediately make a bonus attack for each model she's slain. Maybe give her a built-in soul trap type effect.

Baron Sathonyx - Honestly not all that necessary if you give archons access to wings/boards again, but an opportunity to help hellions a little. Give him some hellion wargear, an archon statline and shadowfield, and a special rule that lets you deepstrike hellions. Hellions get so much better when you can deepstrike them, you guys. D: Might want to give him a rule that lets you take hellions in his detachment without losing your kabal/cult benefits, but that's probably handled best by just creating a new kabal that specifically handles that.

Duke Sliscus - Is awesome, but I'm really not sure what I'd do with him. His rules were a weird grab bag of things that kind of don't make as much sense any more. He used to let you deepstrike vehicles for free, but now that's a strat. He used to let you bring extra wych drugs, but that's kind of redundant with some other options. So that leaves what? His swords?

Vect - Sure. Make rules for a fancy Dais version of the ravager. Let it shoot a bunch, and give it some better defenses. No harm in it if it's priced correctly. Could maybe get upgraded to a tantalus variant instead of a ravager variant, but maybe that breaks with tradition too much.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What were Dracons?

Dracons were to archons what captains were to chapter masters back in the day. Think Wolf Guard Battle Leader versus Wolf Lord or Warlock vs Farseer. Cheaper, weaker versions of archons, basically.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Solarch - Basically a solarite with +1 attacks and wounds. Like the hierarch, he would give your scourges one of the following chapter tactics:
* Move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty.
* +1 to hit models with fly.
* Ignore cover if the scourge unit is physically higher off the ground than their target ("spire snipes").

A "super-Scourge" would be nice, but I think the model's main feature should be a sniper ability (can target an enemy character even if it's not the closest model). This would pair very well with a dark lance or heat lance.

Vect - Sure. Make rules for a fancy Dais version of the ravager. Let it shoot a bunch, and give it some better defenses. No harm in it if it's priced correctly. Could maybe get upgraded to a tantalus variant instead of a ravager variant, but maybe that breaks with tradition too much.

I once proposed the Command Barge, as a spiritual successor to the Dais of Destruction. It's essentially a Ravager with a small transport capacity (6 models), an extra point of BS (starting at 2+), and an extra point of invulnerable save (4+ against ranged attacks). Plus, the Archon still projects an aura while embarked, allowing the aura to be greatly expanded thanks to the vehicle's size.

A detachment cannot include more Command Barges than Archons.

.

TBF, the entire DE HQ lineup needs a revamp. Where other factions are overly bloated DE have been on a hunger cure since well , the update to their decade old dex more or less.

Otoh, could be worse, could be corsairs.

The design intent seems to be clear that GW wants you to mix and match kabal, coven & cult instead of taking duplicate "chapters" (i.e. taking multiple kabals)

Also, isn't one of the strengths of DE that they don't rely on a lynchpin HQ unit? That DE doesn't rely on force multipliers in a form of HQ to be competitive?

 skchsan wrote:
The design intent seems to be clear that GW wants you to mix and match kabal, coven & cult instead of taking duplicate "chapters" (i.e. taking multiple kabals)

I mean, that may be the intent, what with the whole Raiding Party and Alliance of Agony, but that's a little wonky in practice. For one thing, neither a triple patrol nor an army with 1 or fewer batallions provide very much CP. Certainly not enough to be considered conventionally competitive. Plus, iirc, the Drukhari codex came out before the 3 detachment guideline did (I think it was being used by some tournaments but hadn't been endorsed by GW yet). So if you use a Raiding Party, you're using up all of your detachments to do so, and you're getting less CP for your troop and HQ investment than a batallion.

Plus, even if GW didn't want us to take multiple batallions, we're still required to take either two of the same generic HQ or else use 1+ special characters to field even a single batallion. Which, to my knowledge, is an issue exclusive to drukhari.

Imagine, if you will, if space marines lost their chapter tactics if they fielded terminators and bikers in the same detachment And imagine that the only way to take an outrider of bikers was to field a librarian, but the librarian isn't allowed to take a jump pack or bike. And if you want to field a batallion containing intercessors, you have to field either two gravis armor captains or some combination of gravis armor captains and special characters.

That's just a bit weird, and I don't think it's unreasonable to want a few extra options to avoid that weirdness. Plus, it's arguably more fluffy to not be compelled to field multiple archons on the same battlefield.

Also, isn't one of the strengths of DE that they don't rely on a lynchpin HQ unit? That DE doesn't rely on force multipliers in a form of HQ to be competitive?

Eh... Is it? I mean, I don't really think of our HQs as "lynchpins," but a Black Heart archon with a relic standing in the middle of a trio of ravagers so he can give them captain and lieutenant rerolls is probably the most common competitive HQ choice for drukhari. Coven units don't fall apart without a haemonculus at hand, but they generally appreciate his aura (unless you happen to be facing an army with a fairly specific set of weapon strengths). Ditto Urien. Even Drazhar's new rules really encourage you to use him as a force multiplier for incubi. Succubi have a buff aura, but it's a pretty minor one that is also slightly redundant with turn 3 power from pain.

So I mean, we're not doing bubble castles like marines, but our HQ buffs are generally appreciated. And I'm not sure succubi being mediocre at buffing (and also pretty bad at killing) is necessarily a "strength."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Guardsman- wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Solarch - Basically a solarite with +1 attacks and wounds. Like the hierarch, he would give your scourges one of the following chapter tactics:
* Move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty.
* +1 to hit models with fly.
* Ignore cover if the scourge unit is physically higher off the ground than their target ("spire snipes").

A "super-Scourge" would be nice, but I think the model's main feature should be a sniper ability (can target an enemy character even if it's not the closest model). This would pair very well with a dark lance or heat lance.

I can dig it. Would it risk being a bit much though? Assuming BS 3+, you'd have a 2/3rds chance of hitting and a 5/6ths chance of wounding against most characters when equipped with a dark lance, and then you'd average 3.5 on the damage roll. Plus, that's a trick that costs a certain unpopular Coven 2CP to attempt once per turn. Also, and this is mostly just personal aesthetic, a sniper scourge feels like an odd choice to make an HQ rather than, say, an elite or FA. If he's staring down a rifle scope nonstop, I'd think he'd be too busy sniping to lead. Not that that stops guys like Illic. Just seems a bit weird that you'd go from being a solarite (more short-ranged weapon options than the average scourge) to focusing even more on long-ranged weapons and sniping than the average scourge. But again, that's probably just me.