Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A) Omni-Scramblers from Infiltrators prevents units (not models within existing units, presumably?) to be set up within 12" of them.

Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reinforcements cannot be set up within 12" of that unit.

More and more units in the game have rules like this (GSC Clamavus, new Tau Ghostkeel, Alpha Legion stratagem, etc..).

B) Denial to set up models trumps permission to set up models as per the FAQ.

Q: If a unit has a rule that says enemy units cannot set up
within a certain distance of it (e.g. Omni-scramblers), but an
enemy unit has a rule that says it can set up within a certain
distance (e.g. Vexilla Teleport Homer and Lying in Wait),
which takes precedence?

A: The rule that says you cannot be set up within a
certain distance (in the example instance, Omniscramblers) always takes precedence.

C) Units that were on the battlefield, are removed and set up again are subject to rules that target units being set up as reinforcements per the FAQ (classic example Da Jumpin' Ork Boyz).

Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield
after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers),
and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the
battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following
rules apply to that unit:

1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that
are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also
triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on
the battlefield.

My question: Does this mean Omni Scramblers prevent / zone out "resurrection" type rules where a model/unit is removed (because it died) and set up again immediately or at the end of the phase (e.g. Taranis Knights, Guilliman, Celestine, Necron Resurrection strat for characters, Eldar Phoenix Gem, etc..)?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

My question: Does this mean Omni Scramblers prevent / zone out "resurrection" type rules where a model/unit is removed (because it died) and set up again immediately or at the end of the phase (e.g. Taranis Knights, Guilliman, Celestine, Necron Resurrection strat for characters, Eldar Phoenix Gem, etc..)?

Keep in mind that those rules have two parts:
- Part 1: A unit is getting taken off the table
- Part 2: A unit is getting put back onto the table

None of those rules interact with Part 1. Those rules interact with Part 2, limiting where the new (or "new") unit can be placed.

Disclaimer: I am presuming none of those stratagems/effects are attempting to specify that the unit is getting set up within a distance of where it used to be. Because that would require retroactive measuring.

You'll need to check the wording on the rules in question. Celestine's Miraculous Recovery and the Adepta Sororities Stratagem Divine Intervetion tell you to "return this model to play" not setup. Therefore a rule like Omni-Scramblers would not apply since the unit is not being setup.

Similarly, adding models to a new unit would not apply unless the rule tells you to set-up the new models.

It is unclear what reinforcements actually are. By RAW, you wouldnt be able to disembark from a transport T1, because, according to the definition of reinforcements, units that disembark from a transport are reinforcements, and those cannot arrive on the battlefield T1, in matched play. This cant be intended. Its also unclear if a resurrected model is reinforcements. Necrons resurrection protocols says its set up again, but is it reinforcements ?

 p5freak wrote:
It is unclear what reinforcements actually are. By RAW, you wouldnt be able to disembark from a transport T1, because, according to the definition of reinforcements, units that disembark from a transport are reinforcements, and those cannot arrive on the battlefield T1, in matched play. This cant be intended. Its also unclear if a resurrected model is reinforcements. Necrons resurrection protocols says its set up again, but is it reinforcements ?

That is not true.

Reinforcements are definitely allowed to be set up T1 in matched play (e.g. Da Jump, Gate of Infinity, Dark Matter Crystal, etc..). The matched play restrictions only applies to tactical reserves, not all reinforcements.

Which is why the Yncarne can teleport into a dead unit turn 1, if it is on the battlefied (reinforcements, but not tactical reserves), but cannot do so on turn 1 if it is set up in tactical reserves (reinforcements AND tactical reserves, the latter coming with a matched play restriction).

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
It is unclear what reinforcements actually are. By RAW, you wouldnt be able to disembark from a transport T1, because, according to the definition of reinforcements, units that disembark from a transport are reinforcements, and those cannot arrive on the battlefield T1, in matched play. This cant be intended. Its also unclear if a resurrected model is reinforcements. Necrons resurrection protocols says its set up again, but is it reinforcements ?

That is not true.

Reinforcements are definitely allowed to be set up T1 in matched play (e.g. Da Jump, Gate of Infinity, Dark Matter Crystal, etc..). The matched play restrictions only applies to tactical reserves, not all reinforcements.

Some reinforcements are allowed to arrive T1, if they were set up on the battlefield. However, units in transports are not deployed on the battlefield. In fact, they arent on the battlefield. Units disembarking aré set up on the battlefield mid turn. That fits the description of reinforcements in the core rules. Im not saying that disembarking units from a transport cannot disembark T1, just saying that there is a grey area what reinforcements actually are. We dont know if a resurrected model is reinforcements, or not.

Reinforcements
Many units have the
ability to be set up on
the battlefield mid-turn,
sometimes by using
teleporters, grav chutes or
other, more esoteric means.
Typically, this happens at
the end of the Movement
phase, but it can also
happen during other
phases.

 p5freak wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
It is unclear what reinforcements actually are. By RAW, you wouldnt be able to disembark from a transport T1, because, according to the definition of reinforcements, units that disembark from a transport are reinforcements, and those cannot arrive on the battlefield T1, in matched play. This cant be intended. Its also unclear if a resurrected model is reinforcements. Necrons resurrection protocols says its set up again, but is it reinforcements ?

That is not true.

Reinforcements are definitely allowed to be set up T1 in matched play (e.g. Da Jump, Gate of Infinity, Dark Matter Crystal, etc..). The matched play restrictions only applies to tactical reserves, not all reinforcements.

Some reinforcements are allowed to arrive T1, if they were set up on the battlefield. However, units in transports are not deployed on the battlefield. In fact, they arent on the battlefield. Units disembarking aré set up on the battlefield mid turn. That fits the description of reinforcements in the core rules. Im not saying that disembarking units from a transport cannot disembark T1, just saying that there is a grey area what reinforcements actually are. We dont know if a resurrected model is reinforcements, or not.

Reinforcements
Many units have the
ability to be set up on
the battlefield mid-turn,
sometimes by using
teleporters, grav chutes or
other, more esoteric means.
Typically, this happens at
the end of the Movement
phase, but it can also
happen during other
phases.

But while "set up on the battlefield" is the convenient, casual terminology short/hand used by most players, that isn't the definition of tactical reserves.

By the rulebook / Chapter Approved, tactical reserves are units that are placed into tactical reserves during deployment.

Units in transports aren't set up into tactical reserves (unless the entire transport is, with them inside). Similar for summoned units. They aren't placed into tactical reserves during deployment, hence they are not tactical reserves (while still arriving as reinforcements - thus subject to Omni-Scramblers, Auspex Scan, etc.. - on the battlefield during the game, including potentially turn 1).



And from a rules-sequence, all reinforcements are allowed to come in at any turn (but are never allowed to move afterwards, etc.., even in narrative games, etc.. unless there is an explicit exception as there is in the "disembarking" rules).

One sub-category of reinforcements, namely tactical reserves (e.g. units explicitly placed into tactical reserves during deployment), have additional restrictions (for matched play only), namely they cannot come on turn 1 and no later than turn 3 and the tactical reserves cannot be more than half your army (though reinforcements can well be over half your army with summoning, etc..).



Tactical Reserves: A rules-term defined during the deployment stage and relevant for matched play only.
Reinforcements: A rules-term defined during the game (post-deployment) and relevant for all types of play.

Let's get back to the question if a resurrected model is reinforcements, or not.

 p5freak wrote:
Let's get back to the question if a resurrected model is reinforcements, or not.

I would stand in the following.

RAW if the casualty resurrecting is a whole unit "celestine" then yes from a RAW it would. As the UNIT has left and is coming back.

If it is models within a unit but the unit is still very much on the table then no from a RAW POV as the UNIT never left the table.

RAI - I believe a resurrection would never count as re-reinforcements and I would play as such with my opponents.

Resurrection Protocols: does say set up, but it is "... as close as possible to his previous position ..."

So even if this action is considered "reinforcements" it will just push where the Character is set up.

 Draco765 wrote:
Resurrection Protocols: does say set up, but it is "... as close as possible to his previous position ..."

So even if this action is considered "reinforcements" it will just push where the Character is set up.

That's a very good point. Most of these resurrection rules have that note saying "as close as possible", because they specifically want to have them come back even if people do tricky things to zone out the area where the model fell. In that case, Omni-Scramblers would push back (edit: but not remove!) the area that's possible.

That depends on if the rule in questions "returns the model to play" or has the model "setup". Omni-Scramblers restrict where a model can be "setup" but not where it can be "returned to play".

Everything is being set up. You're focusing on a specific wording that doesn't have any specific meaning as far as I am aware. The point is whether or not something arrives as reinforcements, and Reanimation protocols (and similar abilities) do not tell us to set them up in that way.

Hiwpi: Omni scramblers are for when something wants to come in from the outside, not for when something falls down and gets back up again.

nekooni wrote:
Hiwpi: Omni scramblers are for when something wants to come in from the outside, not for when something falls down and gets back up again.

Yeah. Fluff-wise, you are screwing with the navigation equipment of units that are trying to get onto the battlefield. This shouldn't affect robo-zombies reanimating themselves.

So exact wording

Enemy Units that are set up on the battle field as reinforcements cannot be set up within 12" of this unit

Key thing here is the use of UNITS.

We have two more FAQS which I won't bother finding the exact wording for because time but they are as follows.

The first states that all the restrictive abilities trump allow abilities. E.g. My New Ravenwing bikers can't make Termi's come within 12" of these guys, even with the fancy new 6" stratagem.

The second being an FAQ about things like Da jump etc, where leaving the table and coming back on counts as "reinforcements".

If a model like Celestine dies the model doesn't lie down, it's a casualty and is removed. You then roll to see what happens and she comes back to the table. She has left and returned thus "counts as" reinforcements. As she is the whole UNIT within herself she would be restricted to this.

Necron's would be different as they are model. And the ability states UNIT. If the model in a unit comes back that's fine within 12" because even though the model would "count as" reinforcement, the model isn't a UNIT.

This is RAW.

RAI as stated before I wouldn't play as that and I would allow it. But RAW certain models for a revive would fall to this restriction based off the wording and previous FAQ's.

Characters aren't affected by their own aura ability because they are models, not units ? Nonsense. A character is a unit that has one model.

 p5freak wrote:
Characters aren't affected by their own aura ability because they are models, not units ? Nonsense. A character is a unit that has one model.

Yes, and their argument is that when a unit consists of just one model, and that model is slain, that unit is (by removing the slain model) also removed from the table, and then set up again (when the slain model is revived), and that that would count as the entire unit being set up "as reinforcements" - as opposed to what eg. an apothecary does, who only brings back a single model while the unit is still on the table (which clearly evades Omniscramblers, as those only affect units being set up from reinforcements)

SeanDavid1991 wrote:If a model like Celestine dies the model doesn't lie down, it's a casualty and is removed. You then roll to see what happens and she comes back to the table. She has left and returned thus "counts as" reinforcements. As she is the whole UNIT within herself she would be restricted to this.

I'd counter by saying that "removing a unit and placing it again" is different from "this model is slain and the unit is destroyed, and now I revive it". The unit didn't exist in between, unlike what happens with redeployment abilities or tactical reserves. But to be honest, none of this - including your claim - is based on any proper rules. It's just "well this is similar, so I'll just lump it in" or "well this does make more sense than doing it differently". It's a situation not properly covered by the rules, so you have to house rule it anyway.

nekooni wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Characters aren't affected by their own aura ability because they are models, not units ? Nonsense. A character is a unit that has one model.

Yes, and their argument is that when a unit consists of just one model, and that model is slain, that unit is (by removing the slain model) also removed from the table, and then set up again (when the slain model is revived), and that that would count as the entire unit being set up "as reinforcements" - as opposed to what eg. an apothecary does, who only brings back a single model while the unit is still on the table (which clearly evades Omniscramblers, as those only affect units being set up from reinforcements)

SeanDavid1991 wrote:If a model like Celestine dies the model doesn't lie down, it's a casualty and is removed. You then roll to see what happens and she comes back to the table. She has left and returned thus "counts as" reinforcements. As she is the whole UNIT within herself she would be restricted to this.

I'd counter by saying that "removing a unit and placing it again" is different from "this model is slain and the unit is destroyed, and now I revive it". The unit didn't exist in between, unlike what happens with redeployment abilities or tactical reserves. But to be honest, none of this - including your claim - is based on any proper rules. It's just "well this is similar, so I'll just lump it in" or "well this does make more sense than doing it differently". It's a situation not properly covered by the rules, so you have to house rule it anyway.

Miraculous Intervention: The first time this model is destroyed, roll one D6 at the end of the phase. On a 2+ return this model to play with all its wounds remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1" away from any enemy models.

I really don't think any of this applies to Celestine.

nekooni wrote:
Everything is being set up. You're focusing on a specific wording that doesn't have any specific meaning as far as I am aware. The point is whether or not something arrives as reinforcements, and Reanimation protocols (and similar abilities) do not tell us to set them up in that way.

Hiwpi: Omni scramblers are for when something wants to come in from the outside, not for when something falls down and gets back up again.

Yes. But the Core Rule book FAQ (page 9) as quoted above in the OP clarifies that everything that is in some way or shaped "removed from the battlefield after deployment" and "then set back up again on the battlefield" triggers and is subject to any and all rules that would come into play for units "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements".

Thus, Omni-Scramblers trigger when a unit is "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements"

A, for example, Taranis Knight leaving and being set up again at the end of the phase has left the battlefield and is set up again, thus subject to all rules that would affect units that are "set up as reinforcements" (including but not limited to tactical reserves) as per the FAQ (though it seems like the Knight's only pushed 12" away, not prevented from coming back).

This seems like stretching something beyond its intended purpose to make it fit/for advantage.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This seems like stretching something beyond its intended purpose to make it fit/for advantage.

Oh, I certainly don't think that's the intent.

Question is how would it work out by the rules as currently written (without stretching it one way or the other)?


If the current rules unambigiously show that the examples of Taranis Knights, etc.. aren't affected, there'd be no issue, though I think this isn't the case and the rules interaction actually does catch them (which is why it's worth pointing out, precisely because it's doubtful this is the intent).

RAW, a resurrected model that is set up again is reinforcements, because its a unit thats set up mid turn. RAI, a slain model, getting back up again, cant be pushed away by omni scramblers.

 p5freak wrote:
RAW, a resurrected model that is set up again is reinforcements, because its a unit thats set up mid turn. RAI, a slain model, getting back up again, cant be pushed away by omni scramblers.

I do not see the term set up anywhere in the MI rules.


Miraculous Intervention: The first time this model is destroyed, roll one D6 at the end of the phase. On a 2+ return this model to play with all its wounds remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1" away from any enemy models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
RAW, a resurrected model that is set up again is reinforcements, because its a unit thats set up mid turn. RAI, a slain model, getting back up again, cant be pushed away by omni scramblers.

I do not see the term set up anywhere in the MI rules.


Miraculous Intervention: The first time this model is destroyed, roll one D6 at the end of the phase. On a 2+ return this model to play with all its wounds remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1" away from any enemy models.

You roll at end of phase. What happens to the model after it dies before end of phase. It gets removed from the table. You then put it back on the table later on. Ergo RAW "counts as" reinforcements.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You roll at end of phase. What happens to the model after it dies before end of phase. It gets removed from the table. You then put it back on the table later on. Ergo RAW "counts as" reinforcements.

That is fine, but the MI rules do not mention "Set up" at all, and they certainly do not cause a unit to be removed from the battlefield.

So the FAQ that is answered with:

"A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:"

can not apply as MI Does not cause "a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back upset back up".

So the MI rules do not interact with Omni-Scramblers.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You roll at end of phase. What happens to the model after it dies before end of phase. It gets removed from the table. You then put it back on the table later on. Ergo RAW "counts as" reinforcements.

That is fine, but the MI rules do not mention "Set up" at all, and they certainly do not cause a unit to be removed from the battlefield.

So the FAQ that is answered with:

"A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:"

can not apply as MI Does not cause "a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back upset back up".

So the MI rules do not interact with Omni-Scramblers.

Celestine is a unit to herself. - Check

The model of celestine is removed from the table. - Check.

the first time celestine is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a d6. On a 2+, SET HER UP again at the end of the phase

she is being set up from off the table.

The Unit of Celestine comes back at end of phase and is set up. - check

From RAW she counts as reinforcements.

Remember I have stated twice already I would not play it this way as the intent is clear. But RAW she would fall to the restriction of the infiltrators, as would any other whole units/characters that fall to similar abilities.

Only exception is things like crons where the whole unit isn't gone as the UNIT is penalized not indipendant models.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You roll at end of phase. What happens to the model after it dies before end of phase. It gets removed from the table. You then put it back on the table later on. Ergo RAW "counts as" reinforcements.

That is fine, but the MI rules do not mention "Set up" at all, and they certainly do not cause a unit to be removed from the battlefield.

So the FAQ that is answered with:

"A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:"

can not apply as MI Does not cause "a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back upset back up".

So the MI rules do not interact with Omni-Scramblers.

Celestine is a unit to herself. - Check

The model of celestine is removed from the table. - Check.

the first time celestine is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a d6. On a 2+, SET HER UP again at the end of the phase

she is being set up from off the table.

The Unit of Celestine comes back at end of phase and is set up. - check

No check. She is not "set up" at the end of the phase. She "returns to play". If she was "set up" she would be subject to both Reinforcements and Reserve Points. Neither are true.

 alextroy wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You roll at end of phase. What happens to the model after it dies before end of phase. It gets removed from the table. You then put it back on the table later on. Ergo RAW "counts as" reinforcements.

That is fine, but the MI rules do not mention "Set up" at all, and they certainly do not cause a unit to be removed from the battlefield.

So the FAQ that is answered with:

"A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:"

can not apply as MI Does not cause "a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back upset back up".

So the MI rules do not interact with Omni-Scramblers.

Celestine is a unit to herself. - Check

The model of celestine is removed from the table. - Check.

the first time celestine is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a d6. On a 2+, SET HER UP again at the end of the phase

she is being set up from off the table.

The Unit of Celestine comes back at end of phase and is set up. - check

No check. She is not "set up" at the end of the phase. She "returns to play". If she was "set up" she would be subject to both Reinforcements and Reserve Points. Neither are true.

Okay this may be me not owning the most current codex, but to simply clarify. Do we know the exact wording for the whole rule form the most recent codex? Becuase in CA 19 and previously the exact wording was as i stated before "set her up again".

It's irrelevant whether a resurrected unit is set up or returned. What matters is if that resurrected unit is set up as reinforcements, because omni scrambler only works against reinforcements. Otherwise omni scrambler would not allow a unit to disembark, because a disembarking unit is set up as well.

 p5freak wrote:
It's irrelevant whether a resurrected unit is set up or returned. What matters is if that resurrected unit is set up as reinforcements, because omni scrambler only works against reinforcements. Otherwise omni scrambler would not allow a unit to disembark, because a disembarking unit is set up as well.

Actually it's not irrelevant. The reinforcements section says "Units that are set up in this manner". "return to play" is not a phrase used in relation to reinforcements.