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So. I'm building a 4000pt VC army using the Lahmian appendix list. It has 12 casting dice.

How many spare skeleton warriors (Lahmians are far too proud and elegant to summon filthy, unfashionable zombies) am I looking at needing in this situation, for summoning/adding to units?

I guess it would depend on where you are starting with your units, and how uniform your army is going to be. Are you starting at 20 per unit of Skeletons, or 30? Are your regiments going to look ramshackle and it does not matter which regiment they were in, or are all of them going to have a more uniform look that differs from one regiment to the next?

From anecdotal experience, i would say that you would want 10 to 15 more to raise per unit on top of what you start with. The guy in the following link ran a few 4K games and this is what his armored Skeletons ended up being:

https://derfeldmarschall.blogspot.com/2011/10/von-carstein-army-armored-skeletons.html

He did have quite a bit of zombies, and "Hodge Podge" Skeletons in his collection apparently, so he had enough to raise or add to when necessary.

I made a set of blocks 100x80mm and added a 'random' number of skellies or zombies to them. For indicative purposes I would have a full front rank of five models then thin them out rapidly behind, with at least half of the back ranks being crawlers or models rising from the earth. Between the arms and head only models to the reduced ranks I need bits for only 12-13 models per block. The kicker is the sculpted depression to hold a D20, I use Magic the Gathering countdown D20's for this purpose.
I do have small numbers of indie skellies and zombies for when I only have a few raised, I normally swap to a block when I exceed 5 models, but that depends on how many I need. I could use them if I have a unit wider than five models, but for skeletons I would only consider that to jump to ten models, and for zombies not at all, but in any event could and would use two rear blocks side by side. The whole method saves on models but not by much, the main value is on avoiding adding loose models to units, or making oversized movement trays. It is a useful convenience and time saver and meets no critique from opponents, so far I have had no opponent who questions the block size based on the dice value, they can all estimate fairly how deep the block actually goes for purposes of Nehek, corpse carts and flank charges.

Now this doesn't properly answer your question and that is because I cannot answer. That would depend on which units you field, skeletons or zombies, and on the number and nature of your necromancy. If you have massed level 1's all casting Nehek you will need far more models than if you had a level 4 and a level 2, even if your points investment was bigger in the latter case.
However as a general rule of thumb include a number of summonable undead equal to that which you field, plus 15 zombies for Raise Dead. If you go to a tourney double that number and make sure they are all individually based, though you can use gravestones and skulls in moderation instead of full models to bulk out and variate zombie hordes.

Think i already answered on Facebook, but i have 120 skeletons and 90 zombies, in a nechrach list (i only play at 3200pts) i use most. On a sylvannia storm of chaos list, I've ran out.

20 above what you're running. I can't see you casting THAT many skellies with no losses or unsuccessful casts.

Didn't realise it was so list-dependent outside Nechrarchs.

Here's the list, note that it's a campaign list and not strictly legal for standard play, but that doesn't mean much re: summoning. I've only bothered listing magic items in this writeup as far as upgrades go. Also, my plan is to just make a bunch of "emerging"/generic skeletons for summons so troop wargear is semi-irrelevant at the minute.


Command Section:

1 Neferata (Level 3 Wizard)


19 Grave Guard


Main Force:

1 Lahmia Vampire Lord (Level 3 Wizard)
Seduction, Quickblood, Beguile

1 Lahmia Vampire Count (Magic Level 2)
Staff of Damnation, Transfix, Quickblood

1 Lahmia Vampire Thrall
Beguile

1 Lahmia Vampire Thrall
Beguile

1 Necromancer (Magic Level 2)
Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

28 Grave Guard
Banner of the Barrows

19 Skeleton Warriors

19 Skeleton Warriors

19 Skeleton Warriors

10 Skeleton Archers*

10 Skeleton Archers*

5 Dire Wolves

5 Dire Wolves

3 Bat Swarms

1 Banshee

1 Banshee

1 Banshee

3 Spirit Hosts

*Archers are from the Blood Dragon appendix list, but fit the theme/timeline of having only recently fled Nehekhara, so they're in.

 brr-icy wrote:
Think i already answered on Facebook, but i have 120 skeletons and 90 zombies, in a nechrach list (i only play at 3200pts) i use most. On a sylvannia storm of chaos list, I've ran out.

You did!

 Just Tony wrote:
20 above what you're running. I can't see you casting THAT many skellies with no losses or unsuccessful casts.

I disagree with this statement.
While 6th magic was a fart in a storm, overpriced and under effective, Tzeentch and Necromancy were unbalanced the other way. Summonhorde peaked in 7th but was certainly a thing in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ktulhut wrote:
Didn't realise it was so list-dependent outside Nechrarchs.

Yes Vampire Counts is very list dependant because in reality its a very diverse army book, only Chaos is more diverse. Each bloodline is in effect its own subarmy book and adds a lot of variety. Change your characters and you change the whole army.

 Ktulhut wrote:

Here's the list, note that it's a campaign list and not strictly legal for standard play, but that doesn't mean much re: summoning. I've only bothered listing magic items in this writeup as far as upgrades go. Also, my plan is to just make a bunch of "emerging"/generic skeletons for summons so troop wargear is semi-irrelevant at the minute.

Forget the list for now, show us your collection. Particularly all the vharacters you can field. Lists are for single battles or campaigns, your collection is your actual force limiter. However many extra undead you need is collection based as the answer is based on what you already have, and how big a game you are willing to play.

 Ktulhut wrote:

Command Section:

1 Neferata (Level 3 Wizard)


19 Grave Guard


Main Force:

1 Lahmia Vampire Lord (Level 3 Wizard)
Seduction, Quickblood, Beguile

1 Lahmia Vampire Count (Magic Level 2)
Staff of Damnation, Transfix, Quickblood

1 Lahmia Vampire Thrall
Beguile

1 Lahmia Vampire Thrall
Beguile

1 Necromancer (Magic Level 2)
Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

28 Grave Guard
Banner of the Barrows

19 Skeleton Warriors

19 Skeleton Warriors

19 Skeleton Warriors

10 Skeleton Archers*

10 Skeleton Archers*

5 Dire Wolves

5 Dire Wolves

3 Bat Swarms

1 Banshee

1 Banshee

1 Banshee

3 Spirit Hosts

*Archers are from the Blood Dragon appendix list, but fit the theme/timeline of having only recently fled Nehekhara, so they're in.

That being said it doesnt hurt to have a look.

That is a lot of low level vamps, likely you will have a lot of Nehek, unless you go for a false light themed army or some such. You also have multiple small undead units which means that you have potential to add a lot to the table on any casting turn. Yes you will potentially need a lot of skellies.
120 extra is a good start, and probably enough. The zeds are just for zombie bombs, or do you intend to have a zombie list out of other models. Lhamians dont tend to use zombies, they cause the army masters to forfeit style and they smell too bad. Your list reflects this with a skeleton base with Grave Guard and ethereal units. No complaints frankly, though Lhamians don't work with necromancers if they can help it, but keep assets 'in house', but you do you.

Thanks for the in-depth reply.

 Orlanth wrote:


Forget the list for now, show us your collection. Particularly all the vharacters you can field. Lists are for single battles or campaigns, your collection is your actual force limiter. However many extra undead you need is collection based as the answer is based on what you already have, and how big a game you are willing to play.

In this case, list = collection. I won't be doing more than this (aside from summoned skeletons), and smaller lists for individual games will be selected from this big one.

That being said it doesnt hurt to have a look.

That is a lot of low level vamps, likely you will have a lot of Nehek, unless you go for a false light themed army or some such. You also have multiple small undead units which means that you have potential to add a lot to the table on any casting turn. Yes you will potentially need a lot of skellies.
120 extra is a good start, and probably enough.

Alright, time to get another big box of bone boys from Warlord I think.

The zeds are just for zombie bombs, or do you intend to have a zombie list out of other models. Lhamians dont tend to use zombies, they cause the army masters to forfeit style and they smell too bad.

Yeah, no zombies allowed. All skeletons for summoning.

No complaints frankly, though Lhamians don't work with necromancers if they can help it, but keep assets 'in house', but you do you.

The Necro is there purely for small games - the general must be a magic user, and the only non-lord magic users in the book are Necromancers and Nechrach Thralls with the Noble Blood power.

However I've come up with an IMO satisfying justification for one being in the army that fits my still-evolving fluff well enough.

May I suggest you also buy a Wight Lord, a couple more necromancers and maybe Kemmler, but don't bother with Krell.
just that handful of characters radically changes your list and gives you some purpose for the 90 zeds you have.

List= collection is fine, but with the extreme diversirty caused by character changes backing up your Lhamian charzcters with one or two other different groups, like a necromancer cult or, say, Blood Dragons, will markedly change your army for very little expenditure.

I think it's the other guy who has 90 zombies, I have exactly zero.

So it is.

Orlanth wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
20 above what you're running. I can't see you casting THAT many skellies with no losses or unsuccessful casts.

I disagree with this statement.
While 6th magic was a fart in a storm, overpriced and under effective, Tzeentch and Necromancy were unbalanced the other way. Summonhorde peaked in 7th but was certainly a thing in 6th.

I'm starting to see a recurring theme with any discussion involving us and 6th, and that's potential outcome vs. statistical or actual outcome. Is it possible in 4,000 points for the OP to run 6 spellcasters, three of which are Lord level with max output of 20 Power Dice per turn? Yep, totally. Is it reasonable to expect them to roll/choose Invocation on every single character? Nope. Is it reasonable to think they'll be able to cast 6 iterations of Invocation at max casting value? Not even close. Nor is it reasonable to expect every iteration passed to achieve the max number of Skeletons from said casting. It's absolute lunacy. How many games have you manage to successfully cast every spell you've had with no dispel successes, scrolls or otherwise, and roll max effect for all of those said spells?

At this point I'm starting to wonder if your dice have 6's on all sides...

It doesn't matter how much potential a spell has, you could still roll triple snakeyes for effect and wind up with 3 Skellies for your augment, OR even have your first miscast blow the entire Magic phase on the first spell. Read my batreps, stuff like that happens in realhammer vs mathhammer.

Orlanth wrote:Forget the list for now, show us your collection. Particularly all the vharacters you can field. Lists are for single battles or campaigns, your collection is your actual force limiter. However many extra undead you need is collection based as the answer is based on what you already have, and how big a game you are willing to play.


That being said it doesnt hurt to have a look.

That is a lot of low level vamps, likely you will have a lot of Nehek, unless you go for a false light themed army or some such. You also have multiple small undead units which means that you have potential to add a lot to the table on any casting turn.

The OP was simply asking for advice on additional Skeletons for summoning, not revamping his force or altering his theme/fluff/tactics/whatever.

Orlanth wrote:Yes you will potentially need a lot of skellies. 120 extra is a good start, and probably enough.

That is insanity. Are you assuming that said army will max cast to full effect without taking a single combat/magic loss?

Ktulhut wrote:Didn't realise it was so list-dependent outside Nechrarchs.

Here's the list, note that it's a campaign list and not strictly legal for standard play, but that doesn't mean much re: summoning. I've only bothered listing magic items in this writeup as far as upgrades go. Also, my plan is to just make a bunch of "emerging"/generic skeletons for summons so troop wargear is semi-irrelevant at the minute.


Command Section:

1 Neferata (Level 3 Wizard)


19 Grave Guard


Main Force:

1 Lahmia Vampire Lord (Level 3 Wizard)
Seduction, Quickblood, Beguile

1 Lahmia Vampire Count (Magic Level 2)
Staff of Damnation, Transfix, Quickblood

1 Lahmia Vampire Thrall
Beguile

1 Lahmia Vampire Thrall
Beguile

1 Necromancer (Magic Level 2)
Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

28 Grave Guard
Banner of the Barrows

19 Skeleton Warriors

19 Skeleton Warriors

19 Skeleton Warriors

10 Skeleton Archers*

10 Skeleton Archers*

5 Dire Wolves

5 Dire Wolves

3 Bat Swarms

1 Banshee

1 Banshee

1 Banshee

3 Spirit Hosts

*Archers are from the Blood Dragon appendix list, but fit the theme/timeline of having only recently fled Nehekhara, so they're in.

 brr-icy wrote:
Think i already answered on Facebook, but i have 120 skeletons and 90 zombies, in a nechrach list (i only play at 3200pts) i use most. On a sylvannia storm of chaos list, I've ran out.

You did!

So 4 casters netting you a next to impossible 72 Skeletons a turn. The thought of ever seeing that much is beyond reasonable. My suggestion, which has indeed changed from previous, is to have 10 extra models per Skeleton unit. I doubt you'll use them all, but it's a good rule of thumb. I guess I didn't register how many Skels you'd have until seeing the list.

If you're using 6th with no house rules you'll have the ability to milk dice from other casters to use freely between wizards, which will still give you your level's worth into each wizard, meaning that your Level 2's will probably be using your pool dice while your 3's will be stuck throwing all their dice into Invocation. Your bound spells won't draw out much dispel at first as they mostly won't affect the game until you're in base or close to it. That being said, expect two of your four possible Invos to be targeted for dispel, IF your opponents don't spam scrolls.

Either way, just going by average rolling you're looking at 36 Skels a phase at max level. Most assuredly no need to build 120 extra Skels for that.

Lol, i have been playing vampire counts since release. 10 extra isn't even two dice. Also, yes, i always switch to the first spell with each spellcaster, running five, all doing the middle strength in a turn.

2d6 x 5 = 72 max in a single turn with no dispels etc, never happens that perfect, but 50 happens often. Sylvannian lost adds the grave markers, at 3k, four more 2d6 casts, that's 48 on perfect casts, single turn.

If you're expecting them to all be crumbled every turn, it doesn't usually go that way if you're not playing badly

Don't get me wrong, you can build summon heavy armies with little to no effort. My issue is that the player's build doesn't facilitate that, and that my main issue with the thought of having 120 skels extra for summoning is that it applies an optimism that just isn't there. It also leaves variables such as opponent's dispel ability, miscasts. simply failing to cast. It assumes the highest potential output, and THAT is what I question.