Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/12 11:38:35
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Looking at how this guy performs... possible loss of only 3 wounds per phase, 6 attacks (hitting and wounding most things on 2+) ignoring both invulnerable and feel no pains (so he's hitting and doing super mortal wounds) with an 8" move and a hefty shooting attack doing between 3 and 9 MW. Not unkillable but the damage output seems... laughably ridiculous?
I'd possibly say that his ignore invuls/FNP should be FAQ'd to only affect infantry and beasts and ineffective against vehicles, monsters and titanic units? Or maybe tone the damage down to D3? Or maybe even remove the 'ignore invulnerable saves' to keep that mechanic a stuck 'invulnerable saves may always be taken' (assuming all other instances of this ability are brought in line outside of MW). That way it tones him down he's still a monster but not quite the blank cheque he presently is.
Can't say i'm doing anything dramatic like 'freaking out' but after witnessing him recently on a few bat reps, he just seems like he needs an adjust.
Comments, thoughts...
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/22 20:15:37
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
That faq would remove his purpose and no. He is 350pts with no LoS and a slow movement. He is fine, no changes are needed.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/22 20:16:10
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 01:19:26
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
By all accounts the Nightbringer is appropriately deadly. Approved.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 07:14:05
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
I'm hesitant to start nerfing such an expensive model so soon after his new rules came out. He hits hard, sure. His 3 wound capt mechanic is tricky for some armies to bypass, sure. But the latter is also a relatively new mechanic that we're all still getting a feel for.
I'd be more willing to revisit this in a few weeks if people are really struggling to find ways to deal with him.
|
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 14:42:45
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Also almost every army can still kill him in 1 turn. Lots of armies can deal damage in Movement, shoot, and melee, as well as Psychic for others, and even charge phase for many as well.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 15:57:08
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
|
Amishprn86 wrote:Also almost every army can still kill him in 1 turn. Lots of armies can deal damage in Movement, shoot, and melee, as well as Psychic for others, and even charge phase for many as well.
Movement? I don’t know of anything in my army that can hurt him in the movement phase.
|
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 16:01:24
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
JNAProductions wrote:Movement? I don’t know of anything in my army that can hurt him in the movement phase.
Sisters can with Seraphim (a strat allows them to shoot when they drop), and bombers across a few factions. It's something you have to explicitly over-build for because neither are reliable options.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 17:44:32
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
JNAProductions wrote: Amishprn86 wrote:Also almost every army can still kill him in 1 turn. Lots of armies can deal damage in Movement, shoot, and melee, as well as Psychic for others, and even charge phase for many as well.
Movement? I don’t know of anything in my army that can hurt him in the movement phase. Bombers are one example, there are many stratagems (look at DE fly-by) and there are some custom traits as well, also some units just have the rules (look at Swooping hawks). The more you look the more you find. Typically though SM has the least interactions for wounds in the movement and charge phases 9Some armies does have bombers), though most Xenos has it. Sterling191 wrote: JNAProductions wrote:Movement? I don’t know of anything in my army that can hurt him in the movement phase. Sisters can with Seraphim (a strat allows them to shoot when they drop), and bombers across a few factions. It's something you have to explicitly over-build for because neither are reliable options. Its moreso easier for some than others. I'd say DE has the best rules to do it b.c they have multiple ways in both movement and charge phases. But yes marines limited Bombers makes it harder for them. SoB should be fine as the seraphim stratagem is +6" to their range and with Miracle dice the can easily have 2 auto wounds.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/23 17:48:07
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 17:51:07
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Amishprn86 wrote:
Bombers are one example, there are many stratagems (look at DE fly-by) and there are some custom traits as well, also some units just have the rules (look at Swooping hawks). The more you look the more you find. Typically though SM has the least interactions for wounds in the movement and charge phases 9Some armies does have bombers), though most Xenos has it.
Let's be abundantly clear here however: most of those types of abilities are designed to deal with hordes and are downright gak against single targets. Those Swooping Hawks you mentioned? You'd need to bring 18 units of them to on average max out the per-phase wound barrier because they only roll once per model in the target unit. You'd need 9 Sun Sharks for Tau players.
Void Ravens are one of the few that can plink off of monsters or vehicles as they have a non-1 minimum dice amount against those keywords. You'll still need to bring three to hit the per-phase limit, and you can only do it once per game with that particular loadout.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/23 17:51:57
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 17:54:22
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Omnipotent Necron Overlord
|
LOL - no. Hes 350 points and 9 wounds. More than fine for his cost. The days of having immortal beat stick smash captains is gone. Outplay the more expensive models or lose. It is that simple.
|
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 18:01:42
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
He's also absurdly slow without the Outflank Strat
|
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 18:05:10
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Sterling191 wrote: Amishprn86 wrote: Bombers are one example, there are many stratagems (look at DE fly-by) and there are some custom traits as well, also some units just have the rules (look at Swooping hawks). The more you look the more you find. Typically though SM has the least interactions for wounds in the movement and charge phases 9Some armies does have bombers), though most Xenos has it. Let's be abundantly clear here however: most of those types of abilities are designed to deal with hordes and are downright gak against single targets. Those Swooping Hawks you mentioned? You'd need to bring 18 units of them to on average max out the per-phase wound barrier because they only roll once per model in the target unit. You'd need 9 Sun Sharks for Tau players. Void Ravens are one of the few that can plink off of monsters or vehicles as they have a non-1 minimum dice amount against those keywords. You'll still need to bring three to hit the per-phase limit, and you can only do it once per game with that particular loadout. The point was there are answers. There are many armies that can do wounds in every phase (and all in 3 phases with most in 4 phases), you only need to deal 9, split by max per phase, doing 1-2 in each is still enough for the most part.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/23 18:11:11
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/10/23 18:15:12
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Behave. 350 points is more than enough for what you get. Okay you can't shoot him off the board turn 1 like you want to, oh well. The C'tan are still relatively simple to take down, especially as they are coming right at you. It just won't be turn 1. Plan around that and you'll kill it turn 2, likely before he's made his points back
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/11/18 11:28:34
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
As I clearly signalled, it's not particularly his invulnerability that's the issue; it's his lethality or the two combined. I think a few have overlooked the core complaint. I've no hankering desire to shoot any flavourful model like this off the board turn 1, it's 'un fun' but so is a 'blank cheque' on damage.
I'm not the only one thinking he's a bit much, Tabletop Titans, for example, made a clear reference to his offensive potential being OP.
Ignoring invulnerable saves and FNP with his own invulnerability and D6 damage is laughably op even on a 350pt model (especially when you compare him to say the Exalted Daemons or primarchs). That same lethality also makes the game less enjoyable because there's not much in the way of actual thought, it's reduces any illusion of or actual complexity/strategy when dealing with the model to a very basic coin flip - kill it or be killed.
Many are saying they can kill it in a turn, and of course you can very easily, in a vacuum but with other threats? Objectives? Terrain? Not so much. Then there are several armies that don't have any or a only a small presence in a phase (Custodes, Crons, Tau, Khorne).
Then there's also what this kind of offensive power means in a game where the offense is constantly being ramped up. It's effectively D strength weapons; and I had recalled reading from many that over-lethality was an issue with the game's core mechanics. How long before we see this similar ability elsewhere?
So, on balance, yeah, I do think it's clearly something that needs toning down. As previously suggested, either cutting it's area of effect (by what it's life drain ability actually nullifies) or cutting the potential damage (perhaps down to D3 or flat 3 instead of D6) would seem like the best options, rather than reducing its overall invulnerability. Let's face it, compared to other factions, having a model with this kind of invulnerability with the exact same offensive power MINUS the ability to ignore invulnerable/FNP would still be fairly reasonable for 350pts.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/11/18 13:06:07
Subject: The nightbringer...
|
 |
Liche Priest Hierophant
|
"Night Bringer, Night Bringer,
Show us how to do it!"
Is that not a disco song by the Bee Gees?
|
|
|
 |
 |
|