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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





When Power From Pain was introduced in 5th edition, it was a viscerally satisfying mechanic. You killed an enemy unit, and then you were rewarded with "pain tokens" that popped out of their corpses like candy from a pinata. Tracking which units had how many pain tokens could get mildly confusing with the old independent character rules, and losing a big clump of pain tokens when your unit finally died could be a downer, but the mechanic was pretty well received overall. Then the 7th edition replaced the tokens with the army-wide "charge your pain batteries" approach where your whole army slowly built up buffs (weaker ones than in the 5th edition system) even on turns where no one was getting hurt. The current PfP is just a tweak on the 7th edition version.

The new incarnation of PfP lacked that satisfying pinata entrails feeling. It works. It gives your army a little more durability all game, helps you get into combat on turn 2, makes you better at combat on turn 3, and then gives you some usually-irrelevant leadership abilities on turns 4 and 5. (As an MSU army, drukhari don't particularly need fearless, and morale isn't harsh enough to make a -1 Ld aura on the last turn of the game all that useful.) But it just doesn't feel as good as the 5th edition system. Army-wide 6+ FNP is time-consuming where 4+ FNP made a squishy unit suddenly feel unnervingly tough. Rerolling charge tests and hitting on 2+ are both pretty solid, but turning your strength 3 wyches into strength 4 furious chargers was a bigger power trip.

So here's my pitch:

Power From Pain At the end of any phase in which an enemy unit lost 1 or more wounds, place a pain token next to it (unless it is already marked with a pain token). At the start of each Drukhari player turn, remove all pain tokens from the enemy army unless that unit is below half strength. (Such units are soaked in the psychic agony of their felled companions.)

While within 12" of an enemy unit marked by a pain token, friendly non-vehicle drukhari units...
* Gain a 5+ FNP
* May re-roll failed charges if one of the charge targets has a pain token.

While within 1" of a unit (friend or foe) that is below half strength, a unit with this rule may...
* Use the Cut Them Down and Counter-Offensive stratagems for 1 fewer CP than normal (to a minimum of 0CP).
* Add +1 to to-wound rolls in the fight phase against units with pain tokens.

------
And from there, you could tweak or add rules that play off of the new mechanic. Exmples:
* Rules that let you treat the turn as 1 higher for purposes of PFP now let you treat units with pain tokens as being below half strength for the rest of the turn for purposes of PFP.
* If a Cronos hits a unit with one or more guns, it can give a nearby non-vehicle +1 to their FNP rolls.
* Maybe ditch the +2 Leadership drug and bring back a pain drug that lets the drug user treat all units with pain tokens count as being below half strength. (Or lets them grant a 5+ FNP to nearby allies as the drugs wrack them with delicious agony of their own?)
* New stratagem that lets a drukhari unit below half strength gain a pain token so that they can buff nearby allies even when fighting uninjured enemies.
* You'd probably want to give coven units a baked-in 6+FNP as part of their 5+ invulnerable save rule to avoid unintentionally reducing their durability. Alternatively, do a throwback to 5th edition and let haemonculi (or their new lieutenant HQs?) act as a source of pain for nearby units.

-----
The idea here is that you have to work a little harder than before to benefit from PfP, but those benefits are more potent and come as a direct result of harming your enemy. It also speeds up the game a bit by not requiring drukhari players to fish for a 6+ FNP against every wound they take all game. Also, it potentially gives your opponent's wounded units a reason to back up to get more than 12" away from you (to deny you FNP), which sort of makes it seem like the drukharis' prey are fleeing before them. Nice.

What do you think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/21 04:38:08



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in es
Wicked Wych With a Whip





All good ideas! But I fear is to late for theorycrafting, Codex is coming, Alea Jacta Est!

I would love to have to work hard for getting the Pain Tokens again, but being stronger than now.

Let's hope new Poison is better than now

The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in ru
Regular Dakkanaut





I really like your approach! Would be amazing for homebrew codex and seems flavorful.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





This is an interesting concept but I think it needs some tuning. First, pain tokens should probably shouldn’t be placed on vehicles. It doesn’t make much sense for a scratch on the hull to provide a big rush to the Dark Eldar. For balance sake that should probably go for monsters too.

Next the ability should probably trigger on dead models and not lost wounds. Basing it on dead models removes the vehicle/monster issue and doesn’t make the pain token practically automatic.

A 12” bubble is a lot. Six units with 12” bubbles can cover the entire aura. It’s basically impossible to really stay out of it even if retreating from objectives was a good strategy. 6” would still cover plenty.

Counter offensive for 1CP is a little too good. You’d almost always use it since you get 1CP back at the start of your turn.

You also said that a 4+ FnP roll was too much but the Cronos will grant that by hitting a target. Hitting a target is a very low bar and I agree with your initial assessment. Any mass 4+++ will be incredibly durable. Realistically you could cover several units under the aura of 1 cronos.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Anyone seen any leaks ?

Im surprised we have no information so far.
That usually does not bode well.

The drukhari treatment will be a good indication on what we can expect for the other flavours of space elves.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It's appreciated. I was afraid this was going to be another thread that slipped quietly onto the second page without a response. This thread is kind of pointless with the actual 'dex coming out so soon, but it still makes for a fun topic of discussion.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
This is an interesting concept but I think it needs some tuning. First, pain tokens should probably shouldn’t be placed on vehicles. It doesn’t make much sense for a scratch on the hull to provide a big rush to the Dark Eldar. For balance sake that should probably go for monsters too.

Next the ability should probably trigger on dead models and not lost wounds. Basing it on dead models removes the vehicle/monster issue and doesn’t make the pain token practically automatic.

I definitely went back and forth on the vehicle thing. It does take some mental contortions to justify it on a tank (they could theoretically be eating the fear from the crew as their engines are damaged or the pain of the crew member that took a painful-but-glancing blow from some shredder wire). On the other hand, armored company lists are a thing that can exist now, and it seemed like a bummer to have the army's thematic special rule not function against some lists.

Maybe if there were a strat to swap out PFP for some other benefit when fighting such lists... But I'm not sure what that would look like. Would a matchup like that not be a concern/bummer as a drukhari player? I may be ovestimating how many mech lists are really out there.

I'm surprised that you feel monsters shouldn't gain pain tokens. If anything, I'd think that something that big, durable, and capable of being riddled with splinter rounds before it drops would be a prime target for inflicting suffering. I guess a lot of the "monsters" in 40k are actually vehicles (tau suits), inorganic (wraith lords), or bizarre beings that treat biology as an afterthought (daemons).

My thinking on tying it to wounds (rather than casualties) was partially that a model missing wounds is probably actively feeling pain and suffering. Moreso than his dead friend who got cored by a dark lance. Plus, it seemed like multi-wound, heavily-armored marines being less susceptible to a core army mechanic than a less durable army might lead to some balance problems. By making the requirement simply, "take a wound off of a unit," you reduce the gap between something like a marine and something like a termagaunt. But your following points do have me rethinking this.


A 12” bubble is a lot. Six units with 12” bubbles can cover the entire aura. It’s basically impossible to really stay out of it even if retreating from objectives was a good strategy. 6” would still cover plenty.

You make good points. I went with 12" because a 6" bubble means that enemy units will generally be able to fall back out of range from a drukhari melee unit and deprive them of the bonus. Plus, you'd end up with some potentially contraversial situations where you have to decide whether the second drukhari model on the other side is technically still a couple centimeters within range of the falling back unit, etc. Because I was taking away the always on 6+++, I kind of wanted to make sure drukhari would have semi-reliable access to the 5+++ as long as they weren't hiding in the backfield and were taking some time to spread the pain around.

Taking your above suggestion to tie pain tokens to slain models (rather than wounded ones) might reduce the number of pain tokens floating around and solve this, but it also seems like it would impact something like 'nids or daemons way more than something like marines. Also, lowering it to 6" would also mean that you only get the charge bonus on a unit that is already very likely to pass its charge test as-is and would reduce the synergy with deepstriking units. I kind of liked the "blood in the water" aspect. Thoughts?


Counter offensive for 1CP is a little too good. You’d almost always use it since you get 1CP back at the start of your turn.

Hmm. You may be right. Then again drukhari are meant to be fast (and don't really feel it at the moment), and you'd have to have multiple units that are good at melee actually in melee on your opponent's turn to get the most out of it. I'd be fine with ditching this part, but I'm not sure I'm convinced that it's too much either?


You also said that a 4+ FnP roll was too much but the Cronos will grant that by hitting a target. Hitting a target is a very low bar and I agree with your initial assessment. Any mass 4+++ will be incredibly durable. Realistically you could cover several units under the aura of 1 cronos.

That's fair. Maybe a cronos that hits a target should just count itself as an enemy unit with a pain token for purposes of handing out buffs? So your midfield cronos lands a hit, and his pals standing on an objective nearby gain a 5+ FNP that they wouldn't have had, and your melee unit maybe makes an iffy charge thanks to a reroll?


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





There are plenty of armies that get abilities that are useless against certain lists. Any sub-faction that has leadership debuff effects already has to accept that armies like Tyranids or armor lists just don't care about their abilities. Given that infantry models are far more prevalent than vehicles, exempting vehicles is only a slight downgrade. You almost have to include monsters for this because there is functionally no difference between a monster and a vehicle now. That being said, it's hard to justify a carnifex, which is literally a living battering ram, having many feelings from a singly splinter rifle round. Likewise you can try and argue that heavy damage might cause the fear and panic in a tank crew but right now 1 wound from a close combat weapon strikes just as much fear as 6 wounds from a darklance.

I think going by model removal is better. If multiwound modes are too efficient that is an issue with how GW priced that second wound. In theory the benefits of a second wound have already been costed in the unit. I understand that marines are a huge problem but you're puling several other units and even armies down with them. Killing models removes the headscratcher for tanks and giant battlesuits. Plus it doesn't gimp armies like Custodes or Knights.

I don't think drukhari should have that easy access to a 5+++ save. they're suppose to be more of a glasscannon type of army in general. 12" is great if it's just for rerolling charges. I think if you keep the flat 6+++ and just use the reroll charges, you could keep pain tokens at 12". Maybe you could look at 12" for the charge and 6" for the 5+++.

Counter offensive is a great stratagem. The reasons it's not used every turn is mainly the CP cost. How many times would you not interrupt if you had the option and new you'd get the CP back in the very next phase? The opportunity cost on the whole is too low when an interrupt is only 1CP. It's the same reason VotLW is a problem, you get a lot of return for very little investment. I get that dark eldar are fast lore wise, but if we let the fluff drive the rules, necrons, demons, and tyranids will all argue they should be exempt since they don't really register a lot of these emotions.

The counts as pain token is a much better concept for the Cronos but I still think it should trigger off more than hitting. The Cronos is almost always going to hit each turn except maybe the first one. So the ability is essentially always going to be on.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
There are plenty of armies that get abilities that are useless against certain lists. Any sub-faction that has leadership debuff effects already has to accept that armies like Tyranids or armor lists just don't care about their abilities. Given that infantry models are far more prevalent than vehicles, exempting vehicles is only a slight downgrade. You almost have to include monsters for this because there is functionally no difference between a monster and a vehicle now. That being said, it's hard to justify a carnifex, which is literally a living battering ram, having many feelings from a singly splinter rifle round. Likewise you can try and argue that heavy damage might cause the fear and panic in a tank crew but right now 1 wound from a close combat weapon strikes just as much fear as 6 wounds from a darklance.

I think going by model removal is better. If multiwound modes are too efficient that is an issue with how GW priced that second wound. In theory the benefits of a second wound have already been costed in the unit. I understand that marines are a huge problem but you're puling several other units and even armies down with them. Killing models removes the headscratcher for tanks and giant battlesuits. Plus it doesn't gimp armies like Custodes or Knights.

Well, that single splinter round is theoretically making that carnifex's blood feel like acid. Er. A different kind of acid than it's used to! But you make good points. Tying it to model removal is probably reasonable. You'd even still be able to put pain tokens on those rare monster/vehicle units that are still squadronable.


I don't think drukhari should have that easy access to a 5+++ save. they're suppose to be more of a glasscannon type of army in general. 12" is great if it's just for rerolling charges. I think if you keep the flat 6+++ and just use the reroll charges, you could keep pain tokens at 12". Maybe you could look at 12" for the charge and 6" for the 5+++.

I'm not sure I completely agree with you here. Drukkhari crumple when you land a good hit, but they don't necessarily treat themselves as canon fodder. They make it hard to land that good hit, and they're accustomed enough to pain to have a different definition of "good hit" than a guardsman. What's a little gut shot when you're seconds away from getting that sweet pain fix?

That said, I'd be fine with trying it out at 12" for charges and 6" for FNP. It just makes the FNP thing a benefit that you'll usually only get in the fight phase. Probably makes these rules a net decrease to drukhari durability, but that might be justified by the added benefits.


Counter offensive is a great stratagem. The reasons it's not used every turn is mainly the CP cost. How many times would you not interrupt if you had the option and new you'd get the CP back in the very next phase? The opportunity cost on the whole is too low when an interrupt is only 1CP. It's the same reason VotLW is a problem, you get a lot of return for very little investment. I get that dark eldar are fast lore wise, but if we let the fluff drive the rules, necrons, demons, and tyranids will all argue they should be exempt since they don't really register a lot of these emotions.

We might be fielding diffrent-looking drukhari armies. I don't always find myself in melee with multiple units at once, and when I do, there's a decent chance that one of those units is a squad of either wyches or wracks; either of which is probably there to be a speedbump/tarpit rather than a real threat. So if my three units in melee are a tarpit, a tarpit, and a squad of incubi, my opponent will generally swing against the incubi first. And at that point, killing 1 or 2 marines with the wyches or wracks probably isn't worth the CP. I can honestly say I'd probably save the CP and put it towards Cruel Deception or something the next turn instead.

I could be convinced the 1CP Counter Assault is too good, but I'm not seeing it on paper yet.


The counts as pain token is a much better concept for the Cronos but I still think it should trigger off more than hitting. The Cronos is almost always going to hit each turn except maybe the first one. So the ability is essentially always going to be on.

You could change it to only go off when the Cronos removes a model or inflicts an unsaved wound. I'm just thinking back to 5th edition when the Cronos was relatively unpopular because its low strength and low range guns meant that you generally struggled to get that kill. I remember getting excited about facing sisiters or fire warriors because it meant that my low-strength-good-AP guns might actually have efficient targets for a change. Then again, the Cronos is pretty efficient point-for-point right now, and the blast rule has helped it out a little. So maybe that's okay.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
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