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Hi guys quick question.


I’ve seen lots of players using Keen Senses to not take the difficult ground modifier when charging.

Now GW have ruled that Deathguards inexorable advance faq rules against this.

What does this mean for Keen Senses

The Deathguard FAQ clarifies that modifiers to charges are not the same as modifiers to movement and are thus not effected by abilities that prevent penalties to movement.

The Death Guard FAQ clarifies that Dangerous Ground is a reduction in how far you can move, not a modifier to the Movement Characteristic, a Charge roll, or an Advance Roll. Nothing more or less:

Q. Does the movement penalty from Difficult Ground reduce the distance moved by a model with the Inexorable Advance ability?
A. Yes. Difficult Ground reduces the distance the model can move; it does not modify the model’s Move characteristic, which is what Inexorable Advance ignores.

Of course with GW style that's DG specific...Fun fun fun.

 alextroy wrote:
The Death Guard FAQ clarifies that Dangerous Ground is a reduction in how far you can move, not a modifier to the Movement Characteristic, a Charge roll, or an Advance Roll. Nothing more or less:

Q. Does the movement penalty from Difficult Ground reduce the distance moved by a model with the Inexorable Advance ability?
A. Yes. Difficult Ground reduces the distance the model can move; it does not modify the model’s Move characteristic, which is what Inexorable Advance ignores.

I am unfamiliar with Keen senses. Does it say it is protecting the roller the distance?

keen senses lets them ignore modifiers to hit and move i think. Dont have the exact wording on me.

KEEN SENSES
1CP
Space Wolves – Strategic Ploy Stratagem
The heightened senses of the Space Wolves allow them to sniff out prey wherever, or however, it is hidden.

Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Select one SPACE WOLVES INFANTRY, SPACE WOLVES BIKER or SPACE WOLVES CAVALRY unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, you can ignore any or all hit roll, Ballistic skill and Weapon skill modifiers, and each time you make a charge roll for that unit, you can ignore any or all modifiers to that charge roll.


Difficult Ground
If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less in height. This penalty does not apply if every model in the moving unit can FLY.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
keen senses lets them ignore modifiers to hit and move i think. Dont have the exact wording on me.

The question will be if it protects the roll or the distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mariongodspeed wrote:
KEEN SENSES
1CP
Space Wolves – Strategic Ploy Stratagem
The heightened senses of the Space Wolves allow them to sniff out prey wherever, or however, it is hidden.

Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Select one SPACE WOLVES INFANTRY, SPACE WOLVES BIKER or SPACE WOLVES CAVALRY unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, you can ignore any or all hit roll, Ballistic skill and Weapon skill modifiers, and each time you make a charge roll for that unit, you can ignore any or all modifiers to that charge roll.


Difficult Ground
If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less in height. This penalty does not apply if every model in the moving unit can FLY.

So based on this, Tanglefoot and Difficult Ground should both work on Keen Senses because they are not effecting the charge roll but the charge distance.

Audustum wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
keen senses lets them ignore modifiers to hit and move i think. Dont have the exact wording on me.

The question will be if it protects the roll or the distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mariongodspeed wrote:
KEEN SENSES
1CP
Space Wolves – Strategic Ploy Stratagem
The heightened senses of the Space Wolves allow them to sniff out prey wherever, or however, it is hidden.

Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Select one SPACE WOLVES INFANTRY, SPACE WOLVES BIKER or SPACE WOLVES CAVALRY unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, you can ignore any or all hit roll, Ballistic skill and Weapon skill modifiers, and each time you make a charge roll for that unit, you can ignore any or all modifiers to that charge roll.


Difficult Ground
If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less in height. This penalty does not apply if every model in the moving unit can FLY.

So based on this, Tanglefoot and Difficult Ground should both work on Keen Senses because they are not effecting the charge roll but the charge distance.

The charge roll and distance are the same thing though, Difficult Ground is clearly a modifier to the dice roll and so Keen Senses ignores it.

 Imateria wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
keen senses lets them ignore modifiers to hit and move i think. Dont have the exact wording on me.

The question will be if it protects the roll or the distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mariongodspeed wrote:
KEEN SENSES
1CP
Space Wolves – Strategic Ploy Stratagem
The heightened senses of the Space Wolves allow them to sniff out prey wherever, or however, it is hidden.

Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Select one SPACE WOLVES INFANTRY, SPACE WOLVES BIKER or SPACE WOLVES CAVALRY unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, you can ignore any or all hit roll, Ballistic skill and Weapon skill modifiers, and each time you make a charge roll for that unit, you can ignore any or all modifiers to that charge roll.


Difficult Ground
If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less in height. This penalty does not apply if every model in the moving unit can FLY.

So based on this, Tanglefoot and Difficult Ground should both work on Keen Senses because they are not effecting the charge roll but the charge distance.

The charge roll and distance are the same thing though, Difficult Ground is clearly a modifier to the dice roll and so Keen Senses ignores it.

They aren't the same thing. At least not according to GW's new logic. From the Death Guard FAQ:

Q. Does the movement penalty from Difficult Ground reduce the
distance moved by a model with the Inexorable Advance ability?
A. Yes. Difficult Ground reduces the distance the model can move;
it does not modify the model’s Move characteristic, which is what
Inexorable Advance ignores.

IA has similar wording to Keen Senses here so the same logic should apply. 'Move characteristic' is different than 'distance the model can move'. Since difficult terrain is effecting the distance, not the characteristic, it applies.

Similarly, in the charge phase, Difficult Terrain is still just effecting the distance not the roll. The roll is how you determine the distance (just as the Move characteristic is how you determine the distance for a Move), but it isn't the distance itself. Under this new logic, the distance is reduced.

Tanglefoot's wording for the charge phase is the same as Difficult Ground. It says it effects the charge distance not the charge roll. So it too reduces the distance that can be charged.

References:

Inexorable Advance: "...If this unit has the INFANTRY keyword, it can ignore any or all modifiers to its Move characteristic, Advance rolls and charge rolls."

Tanglefoot Grenade: "...Your opponent must reduce that unit’s Movement characteristic or charge distance by the result until the end of the phase."

Difficult Ground: "If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move..."

It's funny I just started a post about how the new IA is so confusing as it regards tanglefoot. It's amazing how one poorly thought out idea can ruin so much.

Nevermind, not worth it.

Audustum wrote:
IA has similar wording to Keen Senses here so the same logic should apply. 'Move characteristic' is different than 'distance the model can move'. Since difficult terrain is effecting the distance, not the characteristic, it applies.

Similarly, in the charge phase, Difficult Terrain is still just effecting the distance not the roll. The roll is how you determine the distance (just as the Move characteristic is how you determine the distance for a Move), but it isn't the distance itself. Under this new logic, the distance is reduced.

Tanglefoot's wording for the charge phase is the same as Difficult Ground. It says it effects the charge distance not the charge roll. So it too reduces the distance that can be charged.

References:

Inexorable Advance: "...If this unit has the INFANTRY keyword, it can ignore any or all modifiers to its Move characteristic, Advance rolls and charge rolls."

Tanglefoot Grenade: "...Your opponent must reduce that unit’s Movement characteristic or charge distance by the result until the end of the phase."

Difficult Ground: "If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move..."

It is very unambiguous when it comes to Keen Senses not removing the reduced movement on your charge move when entering Difficult Ground based on the Death Guard FAQ.

However, Tanglefoot Grenade is a more hazy story. Charge distance is not defined in the rules. It does not appear in the rules for the Charge Phase nor in the Rules Terms Glossary. It is therefore not possible to definitively rule that Tanglefoot Grenade is or is not a modifier.

Isn't this one of those, "Discuss before hand and avoid arguments later" sort of things.

"I see you have a deathguard army, I have a custodes army, this is how I view my stratagem working in regards to this specific instance, is that a problem?" - done.

In all honesty, if he wants his guys in combat with my Custodes, it saves me the work of lifting the models 5 inches. Gold is heavy yo.

Based on the new DG FAQ the movement characteristic, advance rolls, and charge rolls have been divorced from the distance moved by the distance becoming A Distance which is a value discrete from the characteristic and rolls.

And if that doesn't sound like how any of that is worded in the main book or the explainer blurbs then you are in the same boat as most of the community.

So Charge distance is never set right? It's always a variable. So it can't be "A Distance" because that would insinuate a flat amount. Tanglefoot just lowers the variable.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So Charge distance is never set right? It's always a variable. So it can't be "A Distance" because that would insinuate a flat amount. Tanglefoot just lowers the variable.

A variable can absolutely be 'a distance'. Think of the charge roll as the move characteristic and the charge distance as the move distance. If a unit had a move characteristic of 1D6 instead of 6, it's still function the same way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

Audustum wrote:
IA has similar wording to Keen Senses here so the same logic should apply. 'Move characteristic' is different than 'distance the model can move'. Since difficult terrain is effecting the distance, not the characteristic, it applies.

Similarly, in the charge phase, Difficult Terrain is still just effecting the distance not the roll. The roll is how you determine the distance (just as the Move characteristic is how you determine the distance for a Move), but it isn't the distance itself. Under this new logic, the distance is reduced.

Tanglefoot's wording for the charge phase is the same as Difficult Ground. It says it effects the charge distance not the charge roll. So it too reduces the distance that can be charged.

References:

Inexorable Advance: "...If this unit has the INFANTRY keyword, it can ignore any or all modifiers to its Move characteristic, Advance rolls and charge rolls."

Tanglefoot Grenade: "...Your opponent must reduce that unit’s Movement characteristic or charge distance by the result until the end of the phase."

Difficult Ground: "If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back or it makes a charge move, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move..."

It is very unambiguous when it comes to Keen Senses not removing the reduced movement on your charge move when entering Difficult Ground based on the Death Guard FAQ.

However, Tanglefoot Grenade is a more hazy story. Charge distance is not defined in the rules. It does not appear in the rules for the Charge Phase nor in the Rules Terms Glossary. It is therefore not possible to definitively rule that Tanglefoot Grenade is or is not a modifier.

I had some hesitation at first too but undefined terms fall to their plain meaning. In this case, Difficult Ground and Tanglefoot both refer explicitly and plainly to 'distance' so they should both be the same.

I'm not inclined to agree with your analysis.

When you make a Normal Move "...each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristics shown on its datasheet..."

When you Charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6. This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make a charge move."

Therefore if anything is an analog to the Move (M) characteristics in a charge, it is the 2D6 roll. That is what I would call the Charge Distance. I would therefore be more inclined to think that the Tanglefoot Grenade was reducing the 2D6 roll as a modifier which could be ignored via Keen Senses.

There are defined absolute maximums in the rules of charge distance. That is 12 inches. You cannot declare a charge outside of that distance. There is also a defined minimum, which is Less than 1". You cannot charge out of combat, correct? Then again, you cannot possibly roll less than a 2. But there are negative modifiers. I think what seperates Tanglefoot however is that the negative modifier is also random, it's not a SET amount, like dangerous terrain. It's just d6.

While I do expect this to be FAQ'd soon. I will continue to play that Tanglefoot breaks IA and Keen senses. I will make that clear to my opponent before hand, and ensure they understand, my reasoning may be wrong as three Cenobyts in a beauty pagent, but I don't intend to let a poorly written rule ruin one of the key stratagems of my entire faction.

Until clarified, that will be between you, your opponent, and the MIR. I'm sure they feel the same about their factions abilities.

 alextroy wrote:
Until clarified, that will be between you, your opponent, and the MIR. I'm sure they feel the same about their factions abilities.

They might, but he does seem to have the RAW on his side which is a bolster. It's not a Custodes player's fault the DG rule doesn't seem to be very good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I'm not inclined to agree with your analysis.

When you make a Normal Move "...each model in that unit can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move (M) characteristics shown on its datasheet..."

When you Charge, "You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6. This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make a charge move."

Right, this is what I said. The charge roll is equivalent to the Move characteristic.

Therefore if anything is an analog to the Move (M) characteristics in a charge, it is the 2D6 roll. That is what I would call the Charge Distance. I would therefore be more inclined to think that the Tanglefoot Grenade was reducing the 2D6 roll as a modifier which could be ignored via Keen Senses.

You can't call the charge roll charge distance without calling the Move characteristic move distance.

Now, that is a perfectly sensical thing to do normally and is what most of us did, but it's not what GW has decided. GW has decided that characteristic and distance aren't the same.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are defined absolute maximums in the rules of charge distance. That is 12 inches. You cannot declare a charge outside of that distance. There is also a defined minimum, which is Less than 1". You cannot charge out of combat, correct? Then again, you cannot possibly roll less than a 2. But there are negative modifiers. I think what seperates Tanglefoot however is that the negative modifier is also random, it's not a SET amount, like dangerous terrain. It's just d6.

While I do expect this to be FAQ'd soon. I will continue to play that Tanglefoot breaks IA and Keen senses. I will make that clear to my opponent before hand, and ensure they understand, my reasoning may be wrong as three Cenobyts in a beauty pagent, but I don't intend to let a poorly written rule ruin one of the key stratagems of my entire faction.

Technically, some units can break that maximum charge distance (Howling Banshees), if they get a bonus to charge movement. One would think that something like Tanglefoot would be a negative modifier in that it's a reduction. If so, then things like Keen Senses and IA should override it.

 doctortom wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are defined absolute maximums in the rules of charge distance. That is 12 inches. You cannot declare a charge outside of that distance. There is also a defined minimum, which is Less than 1". You cannot charge out of combat, correct? Then again, you cannot possibly roll less than a 2. But there are negative modifiers. I think what seperates Tanglefoot however is that the negative modifier is also random, it's not a SET amount, like dangerous terrain. It's just d6.

While I do expect this to be FAQ'd soon. I will continue to play that Tanglefoot breaks IA and Keen senses. I will make that clear to my opponent before hand, and ensure they understand, my reasoning may be wrong as three Cenobyts in a beauty pagent, but I don't intend to let a poorly written rule ruin one of the key stratagems of my entire faction.

Technically, some units can break that maximum charge distance (Howling Banshees), if they get a bonus to charge movement. One would think that something like Tanglefoot would be a negative modifier in that it's a reduction. If so, then things like Keen Senses and IA should override it.

It's not that complex. We have things like Canticle of Hate that specifically say they effect the roll: "Add 2 to charge rolls". Tanglefoot does not say it effects the roll. It modifies the distance. Rolls are clearly separate from distances and the rules reflect such in the terminology. This is the same as the DG FAQ where characteristics are separate from distances.

 doctortom wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are defined absolute maximums in the rules of charge distance. That is 12 inches. You cannot declare a charge outside of that distance. There is also a defined minimum, which is Less than 1". You cannot charge out of combat, correct? Then again, you cannot possibly roll less than a 2. But there are negative modifiers. I think what seperates Tanglefoot however is that the negative modifier is also random, it's not a SET amount, like dangerous terrain. It's just d6.

While I do expect this to be FAQ'd soon. I will continue to play that Tanglefoot breaks IA and Keen senses. I will make that clear to my opponent before hand, and ensure they understand, my reasoning may be wrong as three Cenobyts in a beauty pagent, but I don't intend to let a poorly written rule ruin one of the key stratagems of my entire faction.

Technically, some units can break that maximum charge distance (Howling Banshees), if they get a bonus to charge movement. One would think that something like Tanglefoot would be a negative modifier in that it's a reduction. If so, then things like Keen Senses and IA should override it.

Can you show me the Keen senses everone is referencing? Because all I can find is a Strat that is used in the shooting phase, and strictly refers to "to hit" rolls. Nothing to do with charging.

IA Specifically is just horribly written even with a near same day FAQ they still messed it up. There is nothing in 9th that specifically states what is being address here.

A quote from Goonhammer "The Adeptus Custodes Tanglefoot Grenade Stratagem, for example, reduces your Movement Characteristic by D6″ – which Inexorable Advance will Ignore – but also reduces your “charge distance” by that amount, which is not defined in 9th edition. In 8th edition the term was used to refer to the result of the charge roll but with 9th edition wording things are a bit more ambiguous. My general take is that Tanglefoot Grenades shouldn’t affect Inexorable Advance charges but this is definitely an area where the wording for Tanglefoot Grenades needs to be brought in line with 9th edition standards. Ask your TO, kids."

As always, talk with your opponent or your TO. But as it stands, Tanglefoot is a throwback to 8th, and is not clearly defined in 9th.....sorry.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are defined absolute maximums in the rules of charge distance. That is 12 inches. You cannot declare a charge outside of that distance. There is also a defined minimum, which is Less than 1". You cannot charge out of combat, correct? Then again, you cannot possibly roll less than a 2. But there are negative modifiers. I think what seperates Tanglefoot however is that the negative modifier is also random, it's not a SET amount, like dangerous terrain. It's just d6.

While I do expect this to be FAQ'd soon. I will continue to play that Tanglefoot breaks IA and Keen senses. I will make that clear to my opponent before hand, and ensure they understand, my reasoning may be wrong as three Cenobyts in a beauty pagent, but I don't intend to let a poorly written rule ruin one of the key stratagems of my entire faction.

Technically, some units can break that maximum charge distance (Howling Banshees), if they get a bonus to charge movement. One would think that something like Tanglefoot would be a negative modifier in that it's a reduction. If so, then things like Keen Senses and IA should override it.

Can you show me the Keen senses everone is referencing? Because all I can find is a Strat that is used in the shooting phase, and strictly refers to "to hit" rolls. Nothing to do with charging.

IA Specifically is just horribly written even with a near same day FAQ they still messed it up. There is nothing in 9th that specifically states what is being address here.

A quote from Goonhammer "The Adeptus Custodes Tanglefoot Grenade Stratagem, for example, reduces your Movement Characteristic by D6″ – which Inexorable Advance will Ignore – but also reduces your “charge distance” by that amount, which is not defined in 9th edition. In 8th edition the term was used to refer to the result of the charge roll but with 9th edition wording things are a bit more ambiguous. My general take is that Tanglefoot Grenades shouldn’t affect Inexorable Advance charges but this is definitely an area where the wording for Tanglefoot Grenades needs to be brought in line with 9th edition standards. Ask your TO, kids."

As always, talk with your opponent or your TO. But as it stands, Tanglefoot is a throwback to 8th, and is not clearly defined in 9th.....sorry.

Mariongodspeed has the Keen Senses stratagem quoted above, and it does reference charge roll in it.

Charge Distance is not Charge Rolls.

We actually don't know what Charge distance is in 9th Edition since it is not defined in the rules. It could be the Charge roll. It could also not be the Charge roll.

As others have noted, back in 8th Edition when Tanglefoot Grenade was written, Charge Distance is defined as the results of the Charge Roll.

So going by all this, one could claim the Tanglefoot Grenade is not a modifier to the Charge Roll because it reduces Charge Distance. One could also claim that there is no such thing as Charge Distance in 9th Edition, so the Tanglefoot Grenade does absolutely nothing to any charging unit.

So talk it over with your opponent and come to an agreement.

 alextroy wrote:
We actually don't know what Charge distance is in 9th Edition since it is not defined in the rules. It could be the Charge roll. It could also not be the Charge roll.

The rules actually do cover it.

P. 19 PDF rules, CHARGE PHASE section, right column, Charges sub-section wrote: You then make a charge roll for your unit by rolling 2D6 This is the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can now be moved if they can make the charge move.

So the maximum number of inches each model in the charging unit can be moved is the charge distance.

See, I read that as "Charge Roll" not Charge Distance. As everyone has said, talk about it before hand.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
See, I read that as "Charge Roll" not Charge Distance. As everyone has said, talk about it before hand.

The charge roll gives you the charge distance.