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So, I was playing around on BattleScribe and came up with the idea of writing out a long-term plan list for the 153rd Ex-Penal Liberators

The general plan is (in no particular order)
Have the ogryns drop out of the valkyrie to smash up artillery/similar at the back, and attempt to take an objective/draw fire from the rest of the army
Use the hydra if I’m up against an army with a decent amount of flying (one of my friends plays T’au and says he’s going to mainly use battlesuits) or as a wyvern otherwise
Keep the mortar HWS behind cover at the back, with the militia squad with mortar and the basilisk - militia to bubblewrap/DS deny, and also use the fact they get the covenant and are marginally less incompetent in melee
Use the melta squad of marauders as AT (might put a chimera into the list so they can get into range, or another valk), the sniper squad at longer range to pick off characters
Armoured sentinels are my other AT - took instead of lascannon command squads since they only have 1 worse BS, but are massively more survivable (taking just over 1 wound from 10 bolt rifles, as opposed to taking 4 and getting wiped out)
Keep commanders and enforcers inside bubblewraps of weak troops, so that I don’t have to have to consider morale - I probably have too many, thoughts?
Note I have almost none of this list, so it’s all very subject to change depending on your views



++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics [LEGENDS]) [74 PL, 1,253pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Gametype: Matched

+ HQ +

Malefic Lord [3 PL, 50pts]

Renegade Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Inspiring Leader, Laspistol, Warlord

Renegade Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Troops +

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Brutal Assault weapon, Laspistol
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Lasgun, Renegade vox-caster
. Renegade Militia Weapon Team (2 models): Heavy stubber, 2x Militia Crew
. 5x Renegade Militia with Lasgun: 5x Lasgun

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 85pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion: Autogun
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon: Flamer
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon: Flamer
. Renegade Militia w/ Vox-caster: Lasgun, Renegade vox-caster
. Renegade Militia Weapon Team (2 models): 2x Militia Crew, Mortar
. 4x Renegade Militia with Lasgun: 4x Lasgun

Renegade Mutant Rabble [3 PL, 70pts]
. Mutant Champion: Brutal Assault weapon, Lasgun
. 9x Mutant with Lasgun: 9x Frag grenades, 9x Lasgun

+ Elites +

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 23pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 23pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 23pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Renegade Ogryn Brutes [11 PL, 138pts]
. Brute w/ power drill: Ogryn Power drill
. 3x Renegade Ogryn Brute: 3x Frag grenades, 3x Ogryn Weapon

+ Fast Attack +

Hellhounds [6 PL, 115pts]
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Inferno Cannon, Track guards

Renegade Chaos Spawn [3 PL, 69pts]: 3x Renegade Chaos Spawn

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks [7 PL, 125pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Flamer

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 165pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Track guards

Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad [8 PL, 102pts]
. Renegade Heavy Weapons Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Heavy Weapons Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Heavy Weapons Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Heavy Weapons Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Heavy Weapons Team: Lasgun, Mortar
. Renegade Heavy Weapons Team: Lasgun, Mortar

+ Flyer +

Valkyries [7 PL, 120pts]
. Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics [LEGENDS]) [36 PL, 694pts, -3CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Malefic Lord [3 PL, 50pts]

Renegade Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Elites +

Renegade Enforcer [2 PL, 23pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Renegade Marauder Squad [4 PL, 96pts]
. Marauder Chief: Boltgun
. 7x Marauder With Lasgun: 7x Frag grenades, 7x Krak grenade
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

Renegade Marauder Squad [4 PL, 120pts]
. Marauder Chief: Laspistol, Power fist
. 7x Marauder With Brutal assault weapon/Laspistol: 7x Frag grenades, 7x Krak grenade
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Marauder With Special Weapon: Meltagun

Renegade Ogryn Beast Handlers [3 PL, 60pts]: Ogryn Pack Master
. 3x Chaos Mauler Hounds: 3x Befouled Fangs and Claws

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [6 PL, 100pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Lascannon
. Armoured Sentinel: Lascannon

Armoured Sentinels [6 PL, 100pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Lascannon
. Armoured Sentinel: Lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hydras [6 PL, 110pts]
. Hydra: Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [110 PL, 9CP, 1,947pts] ++

Are there any glaringly obvious holes the list/recommendations you’d give? I know it’s never going to be anywhere near competitive, just hoping to have fun and not get tabled turn one

So let me see:

Firstly:
Why wouldn't you replace the laspistols with free autoguns for the commanders?

The militia champions aswell would profit more, if not dedicated melee is the goal from lasguns / autoguns.

Flamer is overpriced for what it is and does. (there are edge cases for a melee Militia but yeah, edge cases).

Mutants are just overpriced, like, militia allready is overpriced, mutants are worse somehow...

I'd add a lasgun to the enforcer for generalist terms.


That are some of the first things that i see that could be optimised.

That's a lot of good points, I'd forgotten quite how bad in melee we are so I'd given some melee weapons to characters thinking it might make a difference - I'll swap those with pistols/BAW or equivalent for lasgun/autogun

Are the flamers on militia worth it considering I'll mainly use them to soak up charges (since they'll be kept by basilisk/HWS etc, although I'm not sure how effective that'll be) - that way I get 2d6 autohits on overwatch?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Mutants are just overpriced, like, militia allready is overpriced, mutants are worse somehow...

Would you recommend taking 2 vanguards (instead of bt + vanguard) then, or using cultists to cheaply fill out my troop slots instead of militia/mutants?

You said some of the first, what are my other huge mistakes?

I cross posted to reddit, and got this back:

“You don’t really need RCs or Enforcers for your infantry. Most of your infantry are 10 models or less. If they lose enough to suffer morale, they’ve lost enough to stop being combat viable. Either take bigger squads or drop all Enforcers and RC that aren’t necessary for your detachments.

You need more movable infantry. The Militia squads have mortars, which mean you want to keep them still so you can hit something with them. The only movable obsec is the mutants, which are arguably worse than Militia in every case. Sitting in a corner doesn’t work in 9th edition, which I’m assuming you’ll be playing.

You’re going to want transports for the Marauders. Putting melta on them is a good idea, and they’re good melee units, but they’re pretty fragile and they’re better targets than most other units. The snipers aren’t really worth it, and are a tactical trap.

Take plague Ogryns instead of normal ogryns. The reroll W rolls of 1 and 6+ FnP are worth the slight point increase. In addition, take more of them. 4 Ogryns are not a lot, especially since they’re pretty weak glass cannons. Alternatively, consider more Chaos Spawn, as they fulfill the same role, but they’re a little better.

IMO, drop the Russ, Basilisk, and Hydra. RH rely on weight of fire and not quality of fire, and our vehicles don’t get any army buffs to make them worth considering. The Hellhound is cheap/good enough to consider. Maybe add in one more, or a couple of Devil Dogs.

Drop the Valk. Putting Ogryns in it is not a terrible idea, but it rarely works for the loyalists, and they can do it better.”

Would you agree with this? Just trying to get as many different opinions as possible

btecpaints wrote:
That's a lot of good points, I'd forgotten quite how bad in melee we are so I'd given some melee weapons to characters thinking it might make a difference - I'll swap those with pistols/BAW or equivalent for lasgun/autogun

Are the flamers on militia worth it considering I'll mainly use them to soak up charges (since they'll be kept by basilisk/HWS etc, although I'm not sure how effective that'll be) - that way I get 2d6 autohits on overwatch?

It's not that we are bad at melee, infact i'd say for GEQ R&H got better in regards to melee with legends, that said, a laspistol is 1 shot S3, an autogun / lasgun is Rapid and still leaves you the slot for a better melee weapon.
If i'd use militia as speedbumps like you intended them then no, cultists barebones would do a better job and since you run an enforcer already also would be better off. The issue is, stuff that charges you, for the most part, doesn't really care about 7 S4 hits, especially MEQ /PEQ eqivalents, which suffer 3.5 wounds and maybee if you are extremely lucky loose 1 model before whiping your squad.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Mutants are just overpriced, like, militia allready is overpriced, mutants are worse somehow...

Would you recommend taking 2 vanguards (instead of bt + vanguard) then, or using cultists to cheaply fill out my troop slots instead of militia/mutants?

You said some of the first, what are my other huge mistakes?

I don't see huge mistakes, frankly put i don't think there are, you'll play R&H for your liking, that said, like you also know, to not fold you'll need to optimize even in a casual environment.
2 Vanguards could work and you anyways have nothing to spend CP on might even be the baseline better option.

btecpaints wrote:

“You don’t really need RCs or Enforcers for your infantry. Most of your infantry are 10 models or less. If they lose enough to suffer morale, they’ve lost enough to stop being combat viable. Either take bigger squads or drop all Enforcers and RC that aren’t necessary for your detachments.

You need more movable infantry. The Militia squads have mortars, which mean you want to keep them still so you can hit something with them. The only movable obsec is the mutants, which are arguably worse than Militia in every case. Sitting in a corner doesn’t work in 9th edition, which I’m assuming you’ll be playing.

You’re going to want transports for the Marauders. Putting melta on them is a good idea, and they’re good melee units, but they’re pretty fragile and they’re better targets than most other units. The snipers aren’t really worth it, and are a tactical trap.

Take plague Ogryns instead of normal ogryns. The reroll W rolls of 1 and 6+ FnP are worth the slight point increase. In addition, take more of them. 4 Ogryns are not a lot, especially since they’re pretty weak glass cannons. Alternatively, consider more Chaos Spawn, as they fulfill the same role, but they’re a little better.

IMO, drop the Russ, Basilisk, and Hydra. RH rely on weight of fire and not quality of fire, and our vehicles don’t get any army buffs to make them worth considering. The Hellhound is cheap/good enough to consider. Maybe add in one more, or a couple of Devil Dogs.

Drop the Valk. Putting Ogryns in it is not a terrible idea, but it rarely works for the loyalists, and they can do it better

Also this “Running as many squads of MSU militia is probably your best bet. Larger squads allow your opponent to commit more shots without fear of massive overkill, and morale will become an issue. Militia and Marauders are your go to infantry, since they get more and better special weapon options than cultists/rabble and disciples. Get as much plasma and melta as you can, and spread it out thin.

The list looks fine other than that. Maybe consider a double battalion for more troop slots, but that’s about it. Don’t forget that you’re using Legends rules that some guy at FW slammed out in thirty minutes, so don’t expect too much from this list, but it’s about as good as it’ll get.”

What would you say?

btecpaints wrote:
I cross posted to reddit, and got this back:

“You don’t really need RCs or Enforcers for your infantry. Most of your infantry are 10 models or less. If they lose enough to suffer morale, they’ve lost enough to stop being combat viable. Either take bigger squads or drop all Enforcers and RC that aren’t necessary for your detachments.

This is true, you'll want more blobbyness otoh, if a enforcer saves 2-3 cultists or militia members due to the +2 morale he also easily payed for himself.

You need more movable infantry. The Militia squads have mortars, which mean you want to keep them still so you can hit something with them. The only movable obsec is the mutants, which are arguably worse than Militia in every case. Sitting in a corner doesn’t work in 9th edition, which I’m assuming you’ll be playing.

Jup, same as above, you'll want to have more offensive squads of troops to contest objectives. IF you want to get more use out of the Enforcers aswell that be one of the better suggestions.

You’re going to want transports for the Marauders. Putting melta on them is a good idea, and they’re good melee units, but they’re pretty fragile and they’re better targets than most other units. The snipers aren’t really worth it, and are a tactical trap.

Whilest i disagree that sniper marauders necessarily are a trap choice (Msu or 10 man with their capabilities for 9ppm is not bad and the rifles as a tool for annoying charachters is and can be usefull) You'd indeed be better of with dual plas or melta / valk or chimera.

Take plague Ogryns instead of normal ogryns. The reroll W rolls of 1 and 6+ FnP are worth the slight point increase. In addition, take more of them. 4 Ogryns are not a lot, especially since they’re pretty weak glass cannons. Alternatively, consider more Chaos Spawn, as they fulfill the same role, but they’re a little better.

This is debatable, for one, losing out on the drill can hurt. For the other 4 a at S6 is better then 4 A on s 5. but reroll ones, simply for the treshhold against small things and reaching over T5. Otoh the 6+++ is indeed usefull and the reroll 1's for wounding throws also good.
It's more a question of what you want and whilest ogryn darts have become less good due to the lack of the covenant of slaanesh, overall spawn does their job right now better.

IMO, drop the Russ, Basilisk, and Hydra. RH rely on weight of fire and not quality of fire, and our vehicles don’t get any army buffs to make them worth considering. The Hellhound is cheap/good enough to consider. Maybe add in one more, or a couple of Devil Dogs.

I agree on the russ and hydra, the basilisk can be usefull as either AT or Anti heavy infantry. hellhounds though are a good sugestion, just take care in regards to blowing up within your army.

Drop the Valk. Putting Ogryns in it is not a terrible idea, but it rarely works for the loyalists, and they can do it better.”

As above the ogryns don't work good with it anymore, but marauders require a transport and the valkyrie is ok. It is also rather wierd imo to suggest transportation for R&H marauders and then turn arround and decide that the valk is somehow worse then a chimera. Infact going so far as suggesting the meltas and then removing the one choice that could force an engagement at your terms seems outright asinine.

Would you agree with this? Just trying to get as many different opinions as possible

Automatically Appended Next Post:

btecpaints wrote:


Also this “Running as many squads of MSU militia is probably your best bet. Larger squads allow your opponent to commit more shots without fear of massive overkill, and morale will become an issue. Militia and Marauders are your go to infantry, since they get more and better special weapon options than cultists/rabble and disciples. Get as much plasma and melta as you can, and spread it out thin.

The list looks fine other than that. Maybe consider a double battalion for more troop slots, but that’s about it. Don’t forget that you’re using Legends rules that some guy at FW slammed out in thirty minutes, so don’t expect too much from this list, but it’s about as good as it’ll get.”

What would you say?

I mean that depends, there was an archetype i did run to some success at the end of 8th, basically the khorne mass assault list.
You'd use 3 tripple enforcer and maximum blobs of mutants for screen and had a coven with unnatural vigour. had something like 400 models in the list.

nowadays that last bit broke away but in essence i don't think it couldn't work.
If you'd decided to go for an brigade ironically, (Chaos spawn for fast assault, command squads for the banner of hate) you'd might well could reform that archetype. brigade troop slot full of militia with PG going forward, covens for smite spam and the occaisional beatstick commander?

Alternatively the sugestion to spread plas and melta thin ( i'd honestly just use melta on drop marauders but ehh) is a good suggestion and overkill will prevent enemies being effective against you.it's a good idea.

So would you recommend running plasma militia blobs with enforcers and an occasional commander as the main body/objective holding

Small marauder squad with sniper rifles at the back, in cover to take advantage of Stalkers

More marauders with plasma, screened by the militia blobs

Melta marauders in a valk or chimera, to be flown/driven up the board and then kill something big (then probably die horribly)

Either plague ogryns, ogryn brutes or RCS - not sure which yet - to advance up the board and draw fire/get ignored and kill stuff in melee

Hellhound or two, away from the main force, to do as much damage as possible

Basilisk and lascannon armoured sentinels as long ranged AT/anti heavy infantry

The mortar HWS

What's your take on ogryn beast handlers? Are they worth taking?
And are covens always objectively better than malefic lords? I assume so, since they're much more resilient and the lord's possession only comes into play when he's already almost dead

Does that look like a more rounded list, to you? If I've got points spare, is it worth taking a 6-stubber HWS?

btecpaints wrote:
So would you recommend running plasma militia blobs with enforcers and an occasional commander as the main body/objective holding

Small marauder squad with sniper rifles at the back, in cover to take advantage of Stalkers

More marauders with plasma, screened by the militia blobs

Melta marauders in a valk or chimera, to be flown/driven up the board and then kill something big (then probably die horribly)

Either plague ogryns, ogryn brutes or RCS - not sure which yet - to advance up the board and draw fire/get ignored and kill stuff in melee

Hellhound or two, away from the main force, to do as much damage as possible

Basilisk and lascannon armoured sentinels as long ranged AT/anti heavy infantry

The mortar HWS

What's your take on ogryn beast handlers? Are they worth taking?
And are covens always objectively better than malefic lords? I assume so, since they're much more resilient and the lord's possession only comes into play when he's already almost dead

Does that look like a more rounded list, to you? If I've got points spare, is it worth taking a 6-stubber HWS?

I think we use a bit diffrent terminoligy:
For me a Blob, singular is an as big as possible squad, for that you right now a commander to manage, not necesarily a enforcer. That is generally used as a tarpit, but atm doesn't really work due to durability issues.

Blobbing comes from videogames CoH f.e. and in general is multiple units commanded as one --> you can do this with multiple 10 man squads organised as one push f.e.araund an aura. (3 squads around an enforcer assaulting a position.

If you intend to say go a bat with a commander 2 covens and 6 x 10 militia with 2 plas each with the corresponding equipment then you are getting close to the durability you need via obsolesence and maintain as the other poster on redit pointed out that quantity aspect needed for R&H firepower.

At 60 pts for 1 ogryn and 3 dogs i actually think yes they're not a terrible option.
6 HWS with stubber are 72 pts generating 18 Stubber shots and 6 lasgun on 24 ", it's certainly more firepower then militia squads offer.

If you intend to go horde, as in really horde with tank support, i think you'd be better off with 6 or more times 10 cultists to saver yourself some much needed pts for vehicle support.

Ohhhh right I get what you mean now - do you think the additional firepower etc from running a blob is enough to counter the fact that blast weapons will (typically) make max shots against it, and that enemies don’t have to worry about overkill?

btecpaints wrote:
Ohhhh right I get what you mean now - do you think the additional firepower etc from running a blob is enough to counter the fact that blast weapons will (typically) make max shots against it, and that enemies don’t have to worry about overkill?

no
, for militia, nope.

The reason why you'd see in the past bigger then 10 Militia was that "master of the Horde" was a thing and upgrades for the units were fixcost so bigger squads got cheaper.
since we have these incentives not anymore, and the enforcer being now a wet noodle comparatively, no. there' s no reason to ever field more then MSU.

Oh cool, I wasn't aware of that

Thanks for all your help!

Edit: words

Hi,

I am a Renegades and Heretics player also and this is what I have come up with from a pure list perspective. I have seen Renegades work well with Chaos Knights.

Spearhead & Vanguard
Renegade Commander (+bolt pistol)
Enforcer
Heavy Weapon Teams (6x Heavy Stubber)
Heavy Weapon Teams (6x Heavy Stubber)
Heavy Weapon Teams (6x Heavy Stubber)
-One or more squads hide with the Commander and Enforcer.

Rogue Psyker Coven
Rogue Psyker Coven
Rogue Psyker Coven
Valkyrie
Valkyrie
Valkyrie
Marauders (2x Melta, 1x Plasma Pistol, 2x brutes)
Marauders (2x Melta, 1x Plasma Pistol, 2x brutes)
Marauders (2x Melta, 1x Plasma Pistol, 2x brutes)
-Rides in Valkyries with psykers, now we can fight on our terms.
-Psykers and brutes many (3) wounds for the points. Chief also has an extra wound (2).

Devil Dog (Multi-melta)
Devil Dog (Multi-melta)
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern
-Weight of fire, reroll wound
Leman Russ (Battle Cannon)
Leman Russ (Battle Cannon)

2000 points on the nose. It's the best I can come up with. Focus is on our best and most underrated units, marauders and psyker covens respectively. I miss Imperial Armour 13 so much!

 Intercessor wrote:
Hi,

I am a Renegades and Heretics player also and this is what I have come up with from a pure list perspective. I have seen Renegades work well with Chaos Knights.

Spearhead & Vanguard
Renegade Commander (+bolt pistol)
Enforcer
Heavy Weapon Teams (6x Heavy Stubber)
Heavy Weapon Teams (6x Heavy Stubber)
Heavy Weapon Teams (6x Heavy Stubber)
-One or more squads hide with the Commander and Enforcer.

Rogue Psyker Coven
Rogue Psyker Coven
Rogue Psyker Coven
Valkyrie
Valkyrie
Valkyrie
Marauders (2x Melta, 1x Plasma Pistol, 2x brutes)
Marauders (2x Melta, 1x Plasma Pistol, 2x brutes)
Marauders (2x Melta, 1x Plasma Pistol, 2x brutes)
-Rides in Valkyries with psykers, now we can fight on our terms.
-Psykers and brutes many (3) wounds for the points. Chief also has an extra wound (2).

Devil Dog (Multi-melta)
Devil Dog (Multi-melta)
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern
-Weight of fire, reroll wound
Leman Russ (Battle Cannon)
Leman Russ (Battle Cannon)

2000 points on the nose. It's the best I can come up with. Focus is on our best and most underrated units, marauders and psyker covens respectively. I miss Imperial Armour 13 so much!

yeah, i think the only thing you might want to consider is arming the heavy weapon stubber teams with quad launchers instead.
And since it still is in the pts list of the legends list it is arguably still an valid option...

I also am not sure if you really need the enforcer in this setup.

I'm not sure the quad launchers are allowed and it's probably a typo.

I didn't mention spawn in which are also one of the better units but I cannot figure out how to get them to work within this type of list. If I took them it would be three units of five.

 Intercessor wrote:
I'm not sure the quad launchers are allowed and it's probably a typo.

I didn't mention spawn in which are also one of the better units but I cannot figure out how to get them to work within this type of list. If I took them it would be three units of five.

honestly spawn are at that cost a bit of a point and click unit you take, that the opponent kinda must deal with.

As for the quadlauncher, at the time i wrote them mail of all that their list had wrong, including the issue of troops having no obsec due to not having the correct key words the rule reffered too.
I also did prominently feature the quadlauncher as an obvious oversight.
Since the former got changed and the later not i am not certain anymore that it is really an oversight.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:
I'm not sure the quad launchers are allowed and it's probably a typo.

I didn't mention spawn in which are also one of the better units but I cannot figure out how to get them to work within this type of list. If I took them it would be three units of five.

honestly spawn are at that cost a bit of a point and click unit you take, that the opponent kinda must deal with.

As for the quadlauncher, at the time i wrote them mail of all that their list had wrong, including the issue of troops having no obsec due to not having the correct key words the rule reffered too.
I also did prominently feature the quadlauncher as an obvious oversight.
Since the former got changed and the later not i am not certain anymore that it is really an oversight.

Interesting if intentional. I suppose what I need to work out is how to fit the rest of the army around the marauder psyker teams with what we have available.