Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So here's my Gladiator list for 2007.  No comp involved, just effectiveness.

HQ:

Heroic Senior Officer, Iron Discipline

Command squad, Plasma Gun, Missile launcher

2 x Anti-tank squads, 3 lascannons

1 x Fire support squad, 3 heavy bolters

 

EL:

3x10 Veterens, power fist, 3 plasma guns, lascannon

TR:

Infantry platoon,

  Command squad, plasma gun, lascannon

 2x10 guardsmen, plasma gun, lascannon

 

50 conscripts

 

FA:

2x10 rough riders, power lances

 

HS:

3x Heavy weapons platoons

    Command squad, plasma gun, missile launcher

     Fire support squad, 3 heavy bolters

 

Summary:

Lascannons, 12 (3 BS 4)

Missile launchers, 4

Heavy Bolters 12

Plasma guns, 16 (9 BS 4)

 

Command squad has the lascannons to deploy in LOS of vehicles.

Veteran squads have hidden power fist and 1 LC, 3 PG apiece, infiltrate to deny area and get closer.

Rough Riders and conscripts for counterattack

 

Lascannons should be able to take down any vehicles relatively early, with ML for backup against lighter armored vehicles.

12 heavy bolters is a deterrent against orks/tau and also should kill a few marines.

Total firepower against marines kills 12 at 24 inches.

 

Thoughts? 

       

I really like the list, it looks dead hard and something that could blast apart any shooty army that came up against it and could offer a nasty counterattack against an assaulty force, but there are a few force types that could potentially be a real problem. How are you planning on deploying the army as a whole? If the Vets are going to be up front infiltrating, how expendable are they going to be? I imagine that the heavy weapons would be spaced across the board with the lascannons covering the places where vehicles might appear (like you said), and the heavy bolters in a good place to gun down any infantry that try and run at you, but who is going to get the cover that you have available in your deployment zone? With a force this numerous that also relies on line of sight weapons it seems plausible that you will have a lot of people standing in the open 4"-5" apart. The only thing that might be problematic about that is that if a smaller army with faster troops and enough firepower or CC might can stay out of sight from enough of your heavy weapons and concentrate on a key area of your army, the rest of your force might be slow to respond. A player might be able to do this by positioning Rhinos to block line of sight or using the Tau jump-shoot-jump to pick off your squads one at a time, maybe Drop pods crashing into the center of your line or using massed indirect fire. If the enemy has a preponderance of troops and decides to focus on taking out the heavy bolters, a horde army could be hard to deal with if they had enough Orks/Nids running at you. One piece of advice I might offer is to pay the points for a banner and also buy iron dicipline for all of your officers. I imagine that one stategy that you are using against Assaulty armies is to let one squad get charged, be massacred on the first turn and then gun down the remaining enemy soldiers as they emerge from combat, and charge in with one of your counter assault units. This all seems good, but I know from personal experience how quickly a guard army can disintegrate if you are rolling badly for leadership tests. Iron discipline will let the remnants of any squad below fifty percent have another chance to say in the fight and add their heavy wepons to the mix. I'd hate to see what a timely librarian drop with fear of the darkness could do to a flank of this army. Maybe this goes against the theme of the army, but I bet a Basilisk or two would do better than one of the Heavy Weapons platoons with the heavy bolters. At 125 points (w/indirect fire) a Basilisk sitting behind a wood with a squad of rough riders next to it and a hardened vet squad sitting in the trees in a tough nut to crack. Plus it would give you a way to hit back at any Battlesuits, Hidden Defilers, or marines hiding behind a burning rhino. If you position one of those babies at either end of your line there is nowhere where the enemy can hide. One of the biggest weaknesses is the army's lack of mobility. This is a defensive army, but if this army has to take table quarters, rescue an objective or assault a bunker how are you going to do it? If I was up against this army I would do my best to hide behind things and keep my eyes on the prize, be it loot counters, or deployment zones or what have you. I know that it would drastically change the organization of the force, but a couple of fast moving units could be really useful. I'd recommend a Hellhound. It can torch light infantry, move fast and provide cover for the rough riders if you need to send them over the top. Whew! I'm done, but I hope that some of my suggestions have been valuable.

Good God, man.

I'm not sure what happened, but all of my carefully spaced and arranged Paragraphs got smooshed together.

I'm not sure what happened, but all of my carefully spaced and arranged Paragraphs got smooshed together.

I'm not sure what happened, but all of my carefully spaced and arranged Paragraphs got smooshed together.

hey, Samwise158 is stuck!

Samwise,
No worries.

Good thoughts on mobility, etc. I figure that the RR should be able to take TQs after making their initial assault. In my experience, guard is vulnerable to that one unit doing leapfrog maneuvers through their army.

Deployment: Mission, Enemy, Terrain dependent. Sure, if I face someone with 3 hidden defilers, I may be in for a rough game, However, I have yet to find an army that works against everything (if I did, everyone will play it). Part of my strategy is relying on the fact that most people prepare for MEQs, and thus for the first two turns, I will face anti-tank firepower shooting at my infantry.

Army Comp: I agree Basilisks and Hellhounds would serve a role. However, in my opinion, they start you down a slipper slope. If I take one Hellhound, it dies to shooting. If I take 2 Basilisks, they are vulnerable to deep strike. To protect the hellhound, I need to take 2 Leman russes. At that point, I drop from close to 200 models to closer to 100, and have lots of VPs in small, contained areas. Certainly worth a thought though.

Missions: With 50 conscripts, 20 rough riders, I have the manpower to go sit on an objective, and let someone kick me off. Since most TQ missions these days have the odd diagonal deployment, that lets me start stuff in three table quarters, and concentrate on contesting something with the RRs on turn 6. With 19 Scoring units, that's a lot to kick off of objectives or destroy with shooting. I plan on trading bodies for time. (true guard commander eh?)

More thoughts: what are thoughts on dropping a vet squad and reducing the others to take a Grey Knight Grandmaster with a psychic hood to mitigate the risk of deep striking boo librarians? It costs me a scoring unit, but adds a bit of HtH punch protection.

Thanks for the comments, keep 'em coming.

"More thoughts: what are thoughts on dropping a vet squad and reducing the others to take a Grey Knight Grandmaster with a psychic hood to mitigate the risk of deep striking boo librarians?"

why not an =I= w/ retinue?

I can definitely understand why you are hesitant to start adding vehicles, the Hellhound in particular. I personally use two or three and play a vehicle heavy force, so I'm a little biased But I think that the Basilisks will definitely prove worthwhile for a few reasons. You mentioned that it is a lot of points concentrated in one place, and would be vulnerable to deep strike. That's true, but most armies would have to commit a serious amount of points to counter that threat and you can have the counterattack units in place to mess them up. Also deep striking is risky, especially into an area swarming with troops. I occaisionally use Deep Striking storm troopers w/meltas, and at 75pts for a suicide squad with Melta Guns, they end up having a bad scatter and end up getting gunned down a fair amount of the time. Most other armies have to commit much more than 75pts to that kind of gamble, be it in the form of a Shas'el w/ Fusion Blasters, a drop pod w/ Terminators, Raveners w/ rending claws or Deep striking Chaos types. If you make them come to you then you can plan on how to hit them back. That's an investment which I'm sure will pay off. They can't ignore the Basilisk, especially if you command the fire lanes and they have their prize units bunched up in the dead zones behind cover. Also, you mentioned the Grey Knight Grand Master, I'd keep the rough riders and spend any extra points on more iron discipline.

Alarming Rick,
What about an inquisitor with retinue? What kind of retinue would you suggest, and why? In place of what? How would you recommend using him?

Samwise,
I will have a chance to test this army out this Sunday, so that should be a good time. I'll let you know what I think then. Right now, I'm feeling negatively towards adding vehicles, even str 9 AP 3 ordanance blasts. At 230 points, that costs me 20 models on the table, and I like guys in large numbers as much as I like wimmen in large overalls. Ooops, maybe TMI there.

large overalls??? wouldn't they fall off???

Good list. I love swarm guard armies and rough riders. This list seems to satisfy two of my likings.

You will never win with this army at a Gladiator, never. You will run out of time playing Walter and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. Seriously you will run out of time and thus you can't win with it. Also you will never win with with any Grey Knights in this army no matter if there is a time limit or not. One Grey Knight means the guy you played in the 4th round has his Daemons coming back every turn to rampage through your paper hard troops with impunity. Let's not go that far and let's say one guy brings 8 Furies at 120pts and they now come back over and over again because of that lone Grandmaster. Forget it. You already losing the Gladiator because of time, don't lose it to sustained assault as well.

Right, so the Grey Knight stays. Perhaps with large overalls, or redone as a female inquisitor of Epic proportions... with a hood.

No time to move? It's guard Mr. DD, they don't move.

So what is the winning list for the Gladiator? Bugs?

rryannn;

   Large overalls never fall off because they're skin tight...

Whatever I happen to be playing Mick since this year I'm not running it.

 

You still need to deploy that monstrosity and you know how one mission will put all the footsloggers into reserve whether it is reverse escalation or the old standby of only deploying two troop choices and the rest are in reserve.

How about a wall of pods and deploy with our backs to you.  Then we walk around the pods and assault the hell out of you. 

Remeber the key to winning the Gladiator is balance, balance, balance.  Many guys got timed out this past year.  More than I thought was acceptable myself and I ran it.  I think your list would be great if there were no time limit or at least guys who wouldn't use the time limit to their unscrupulous advantage.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.. talk, talk, talk...

Point taken about balance, but if my opponent wants to stall against a shooty army, then I'm all for it. Drop pods forming a wall? Let 'em. That's what rough Riders are for.. create a melee zone they have to move around and still be shot to crap. (I win first round and die in second round, exposing the poor marines to IG shooty goodness.

Balance may be key, but IG doesn't have it. And if there is a modified reverse escalation or the 2 troops on the table, I'm still good with more shooting than Hector had pups.

And now that you've torn it down, how would you better it? Is IG unworkable?

Yes, unworkable. --- well nothing is always unworkable, just a little more difficult to work with.

I said the list would work much better without the strict 2 hour time limit. Making your army move fast is an important factor in Gladiators. You know that you need most every point and you need the time to get all those objectives completed. The last thing you need is a multiple combat, with multiple initiatives and a 50 man conscript mob in the middle of it.

Try it out. Don't take my word for it. No ones opinion is as important as the results you get on the tabletop.

Interesting list Papa, I was working on one similiar, but have put it on hold since I have too many projects currently. Hopefully I can get back into it. However, I partially agree with DD. I'd be wary of the heavy weapons platoons and would almost say that AV14 is better. With all the firepower you have, taking 2 bare bones (I.e. no sponson) LR battle tanks would be cheap and also be a great fire base to castle between. I think if you are fielding 50 constripts, I'd take a Canoness with a Book of St. Lucius and have her join the squad. Now you have a 50 man squad that has an unmodified Ld of 10. Great for becoming the hard target that sits on the objective. the infiltrating vets are a good choice since that will give you 3 LC that can get into better firing postion to pick on armor. However, I'd keep them relatively at range, to prevent an assault army from moving through your lines quicker. If it is one thing that I learned lately playing IG is to deny the opponent extra movement. Denying that D6" is important. Capt K

50 conscripts won't break with a LD 10 canoness packing the book....or it is extremely rare. Capt K

"Alarming Rick,
What about an inquisitor with retinue? What kind of retinue would you suggest, and why? In place of what? How would you recommend using him?"

Kyoto pattern =I=, 1 =I=, 3 HB serv., 2 mystics and 1 sage.

Meh. He can get that fire power in other things in the IG list for cheaper. I wouldn't worry too much about pods. Trying to make a list to counter everything ultimately fails.... Capt K

Hmmmm.....

First: why 10 rough riders?  I'd break those into 2x squads of 7, and one of 6 (or maybe 1x8, and 2x6, to keep even numbers).  7 Rough Riders charging is enough to seriously dent a target, and wipe out some smaller ones.   10 seems like overkill.

Okay, Gladiator.  There's a few "typical" opponents you may have to consider: the demon-bomb, the drop pod list, the Iron Warriors, the guy with Big Toys, and (depending on their new codex) the Eldar Armoured Company.

Demon-bomb lists: couple variants (bikers as delivery, deep strikers as delivery, infiltrators as delivery), but no major variation in play style.  You're probably fine there, so long as you're spread out enough to prevent consolidation from one assault to the next.  Siren will be annoying.  No changes needed.

Drop Pods: you'd know how to deal with this better than I.  My only concern is one of mobility - if you deploy castled to counter the pods, and he drops far away, you're not going to be able to win big against him, simply because you can't bring your guns to bear on the far corner or behind terrain or whatever.

Iron Warriors: 4 indirect-fire tanks will be unpleasant.  Obliterators, with adequate terrain and used intelligently, will kill some stuff and not die.  Anything he shows you, though, dies.  Again, you won't be able to win big.  Ditto for other shooty guard armies.

Big Toys: titans, superheavies, and FW daemons.  They're not all that competitive in themselves, but they can spoil the chances of a perfectly good list.  Application of your numerous lascannons will likely be adequate. 

Eldar AC: who knows?  If the Falcon remains nigh-invulnerable, it's all about dice.  But he's going to have a hard time extracting VPs and objectives from your list.

Summary: it's a good all-infantry Guard force.  Adding mobility beyond your rough riders would compromise the all-infantry nature of the list, and (unless taken to the other extreme, i.e., fully mechanized), would put you in that "eggs in a few baskets" scenario you were trying to avoid.  However, like most Gladiator lists, much will depend on the mission and opponent. 

On the plus side, it will be VERY hard for an opponent to wipe the table with you, so if a secondary objective is to take the other guy down with you, you're in good shape - that's a lot of bodies to kill.

"He can get that fire power in other things in the IG list for cheaper. "

=I= cheaper than Grey Knight Grand Master.

IG FS squad with HB =80 pts

3 Gun-Servitors armed with HB =75 pts

plus the servitors have a better BS(4) and a better Sv(4+).

Janthkin,
Good points, and good thinking points.
Demon Bomb: Not too scared. 50/50 chance to go first, and firepower is pretty good. Key is to deploy/maneuver so that wherever he assaults, when I lose (and I will lose), I get to shoot up those lovely demons.
Drop Pod. Boo is the scariest thing (pun sort of intended) that I can imagine facing. However, after taking a look at Capt. K's suggestion of the cannonness with the book for unmodified ld 10 all around, I like that idea and will probably run with it. Given that if I face pods, I get 1-2 turns of movement, I should have my front-line nearly halfway across the table before he drops. If he drops far away (and not many SM players go the long range shooting route), then I take the risk with the 3 lascannon teams and try to blow up and remove the pod to open shooting for the rest of the army.
Iron Warriors: you're right. That will be unpleasant, but given the setup I have, I don't see that I can do much about it. Taking Drop Troops as a doctrine with suicide Melta-gun teams would help in about half the scenarios, but that degrades my firepower and I'm not sure I'm wild about taking a doctrine to deal with a very limited number of opponents in a limited number of scenarios. I believe that will be my kryptonite.
Big Toys: No worries. Lascannons and lots of units. Have a nice day Mr. Titan.
Eldar: remains to be seen. rumors suggest that Falcon stays unkillable, and thus a staple in any Eldar list. However, with the amount of firepower I have, I should be able to concentrate on his units, and get rid of them, letting his falcon take its 3-6 shots a turn. A place where quantity overwhelms quality I believe.

Rick, (may I call you rick? Don't be alarmed now)
Don't like the Inquisitor and retinue. Only reason I could see to take him would be to take an assassin to help with HtH and getting something into the opponent's back court, running around creating havoc. Thanks for the thought though, it made me think. I think I'm sticking with quantity over quality in at least the first iteration.

Capt. K,
Thanks for the cannonness suggestion. Really liked that. And at 50 some odd points, it gives me something to help against the drop pods while not compromising the rest of the list.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the guard?

alarmingrick: True that the HB of the servitors are better and 5pts cheaper, but you still have to pay for the =I=, so it actually is more points over all. Besides he has enough heavy weapons in squads with more ablative wounds. The =I= retinues rarely make their points back and have to many special models that you need to make them work, that by loosing them takes the effectiveness down of that unit. With his IG units, you have to kill 9 models to silence the heavy weapon...but meh. I think the best =I= are ones with warriors with plasma but Papas army doesn't really need it. Papa: Thanks. Taking the canoness with the book works well and I have used the tactic before. My only other suggestion is maybe to take a cheap elite =I= with tarot. So your chances of dictating the pace of the game is higher. So against armies like DP's you can win the roll off and force them to go first...or last...hehe. I guess it is another element that you can have better control of. But all in all, your list is pretty solid. Let me know how your play testing goes, since like I said, I have a IG list made similiar to this one and haven't tried it yet. Capt K

Canoness w/ Book does my 60 (2 x 30) Conscripts very well thank you very much.

I guess I'm gonna volunteer to run this craziness this year using the tricks Mr DarthDiger enpowered to me last year.

The concept of penalizing the stallers will be greatly discussed. We know some of the major violators and how they work, and with enough roaming support judges under my wing, I think we can come up with something.

You list sucks Mick. Total crap.

Only unit you have that can get across the table to those "other objectives" are the Rough Riders (or units that will lose heavy weapons fire) and they'll die to bolter fire on their trip. But you know that are are making allowances for certain gambles/gambits/tactics and deployments.

Oh, hey, doctrines!

Which are you taking?

Do take Drop Troops. It's free, and if the mission is crazy, or your opponent merits it, you can drop your platoon on objectives/other side of the board.

I care not where, but find points for Iron Discipline. The Cannoness is nice, but ID lets you regroup under 50%. Sometimes you WANT to break, and it'd be good if you could rally after so doing.

Close Order Drill is nice, in that it is free.

Doctrines:
Iron Discipline, Rough Riders, Conscripts, Heavy Weapon platoons, and Veterans.

No room for drop troops unless i drop one. May drop Veterens to take only one squad, but the Cannoness, and then have 260 points to get another platoon or heavy weapon platoon.

Decisions, decisions...

Don?t you think a 160 pt Vet squad is a bit much for 10 guys with T 3, Sv 5+? Also have you considered giving your rough riders melta guns so they can do the job of deapstriking melta gunners after they assault, without unreliability (Usualy its an ineffective strategy but if your using 10 man squads why not?). The 50 man conscript squad supported by the rough riders works well, my only suggestion would be to give them 5 flamers, that way they can kill any infantry if you maneuver them right

IG NooB

I would say you would make a better showing if you drop the fists and 2 vets from each of the vet squads, consolidate down to 1 or 2 HWP and add the invici-babe cannoness w/book.