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My question is one of timing- If I have a unit of models that have the fight/shoot twice rule do the necrons get to use their reanimation protocols after each set of attacks or do they have to wait for both sets of attacks to be finished before they can use them? Also, does it matter if the second round of attacks came via a stratagem rather than an innate ability of the unit?

Reanimation protocols happens each time an enemy unit shoots or fights.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
My question is one of timing- If I have a unit of models that have the fight/shoot twice rule do the necrons get to use their reanimation protocols after each set of attacks or do they have to wait for both sets of attacks to be finished before they can use them? Also, does it matter if the second round of attacks came via a stratagem rather than an innate ability of the unit?

From what I've read, it depends on the rules being used. Much like the chaos space marine "Red Butchers" Stratagem. As it declares that **This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once**
So a judge would most likely rule that they get to have both sets of rolls before the Necron player gets their reanimation protocols. Possible because of how RAW has it where their fight phase supersedes the Necron player's own phase.

Though it would still depend on the wording of the rule if you ask me.

The question arose in my mind due to the reanimation rule saying that it occurs "after it [the attacking unit] makes its attacks..." is when you use the protocols.

So is a unit done making its attacks after each "volley" or when it completes its action in the appropriate phase? I can see it either way but the RAW is ambiguous (at least to my way of thinking).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The question arose in my mind due to the reanimation rule saying that it occurs "after it [the attacking unit] makes its attacks..." is when you use the protocols.

So is a unit done making its attacks after each "volley" or when it completes its action in the appropriate phase? I can see it either way but the RAW is ambiguous (at least to my way of thinking).

A unit is done making its attacks after the consolidate step of the fight phase, as noted on P. 22 of the PDF Rules.

Then you can select another unit to attack. However before that happens, the Necrons will get their RP rolls.

 Oborosen wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
My question is one of timing- If I have a unit of models that have the fight/shoot twice rule do the necrons get to use their reanimation protocols after each set of attacks or do they have to wait for both sets of attacks to be finished before they can use them? Also, does it matter if the second round of attacks came via a stratagem rather than an innate ability of the unit?

From what I've read, it depends on the rules being used. Much like the chaos space marine "Red Butchers" Stratagem. As it declares that **This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once**
So a judge would most likely rule that they get to have both sets of rolls before the Necron player gets their reanimation protocols. Possible because of how RAW has it where their fight phase supersedes the Necron player's own phase.

Though it would still depend on the wording of the rule if you ask me.

This analysis is incorrect. A unit fights (pile-in, attack, consolidates). Reanimation Protocols take place "after a unit makes its attacks". This is before the unit consolidates.

If a unit is able to fight twice in a fight phase, it can be selected to fight a second time, but no until after the opponent has an opportunity to select a unit and fight with it (there may not be any units that can be selected, but they have the chance do to so). The unit can then be selected to fight a second time. See the Rare Rules section for details.

Thus, you most definitely do not wait for a unit to make a second set of attacks before rolling Reanimation Protocols.

 DeathReaper wrote:
A unit is done making its attacks after the consolidate step of the fight phase, as noted on P. 22 of the PDF Rules.

Not true. Necrons get to do RP before consolidation.

Reanimation Protocols
Each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models in this unit were destroyed as a result of those attacks but this unit was not destroyed, this unit's reanimation protocols are enacted and those destroyed models begin to reassemble.

P. 21 core rules
When a unit fights, it piles in, then it makes close combat
attacks, then it consolidates.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A unit is done making its attacks after the consolidate step of the fight phase, as noted on P. 22 of the PDF Rules.

Not true. Necrons get to do RP before consolidation.

Reanimation Protocols
Each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models in this unit were destroyed as a result of those attacks but this unit was not destroyed, this unit's reanimation protocols are enacted and those destroyed models begin to reassemble.

P. 21 core rules
When a unit fights, it piles in, then it makes close combat
attacks, then it consolidates.

So, what is the consensus? Do Necrons get 1 or 2 reanimation attempts?

Also what about the shooting phase? Is there a definition of when a unit's attacks are finished or is this the same as the fight phase answer?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
So, what is the consensus? Do Necrons get 1 or 2 reanimation attempts?

Also what about the shooting phase? Is there a definition of when a unit's attacks are finished or is this the same as the fight phase answer?

Necrons get Reanimation Protocalls rolls after an enemy unit makes its attacks. This happens every time an enemy unit makes its attacks. (So if a unit attacks twice in a fight phase, they get 2 Reanimation Protocalls rolls because of that unit, one after every attacks step).

Same answer for the shooting phase.

The Necrons get RP every time a unit shoots or attacks them in melee.

DeathReaper has it 100% correct.

Thanks. I guess that there was no ambiguity after all.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
So, what is the consensus? Do Necrons get 1 or 2 reanimation attempts?

Also what about the shooting phase? Is there a definition of when a unit's attacks are finished or is this the same as the fight phase answer?

Necrons get Reanimation Protocalls rolls after an enemy unit makes its attacks. This happens every time an enemy unit makes its attacks. (So if a unit attacks twice in a fight phase, they get 2 Reanimation Protocalls rolls because of that unit, one after every attacks step).

Same answer for the shooting phase.

The Necrons get RP every time a unit shoots or attacks them in melee.

RP are done after the attacks, but so is the consolidation. When two rules interact at the same time the players whose turn is ongoing can chose the order.

What are your thoughts on that?

I like this question, I always like timing questions, and lean towards yes without even looking at the rules (I need those books.)
Wondering what tactical situations this could lead to, though?

RP is a special rule, and those interrupt the normal flow of the game. RP says after it makes its attacks, thats between making attacks and consolidation. Its not at the same time. That would be true if two or more rules would be resolved at the end of the battle round. Then you use sequencing. If you consolidate before, you could block space needed to place reanimated necron models.

 p5freak wrote:
RP is a special rule, and those interrupt the normal flow of the game. RP says after it makes its attacks, thats between making attacks and consolidation. Its not at the same time

Citation needed.

A special rule overrides/interrupts the general rules, and will tell you when and how it is resolved. Thats how the game works. You agreed that RP comes before consolidate, so you agree how special rules work.

 p5freak wrote:
A special rule overrides/interrupts the general rules, and will tell you when and how it is resolved. Thats how the game works. You agreed that RP comes before consolidate, so you agree how special rules work.

So you do not have a citation?

I think he's talking about USR's? Unless I am very mistaken, which are in the book, I just cannot find my book currently.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A special rule overrides/interrupts the general rules, and will tell you when and how it is resolved. Thats how the game works. You agreed that RP comes before consolidate, so you agree how special rules work.

So you do not have a citation?

No, i dont. There is no citation needed. If a special rule allows you to do something which you normally cant do, the special rule overrides the general rule (like charging after advancing). Otherwise the game wouldnt work.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A special rule overrides/interrupts the general rules, and will tell you when and how it is resolved. Thats how the game works. You agreed that RP comes before consolidate, so you agree how special rules work.

So you do not have a citation?

No, i dont. There is no citation needed. If a special rule allows you to do something which you normally cant do, the special rule overrides the general rule (like charging after advancing). Otherwise the game wouldnt work.

Except the timing on those two rules is the same.

This is not a case of having a special rule override a general rule.

Why are you putting one before the other?

At the risk of diving back into this issue, the timing question being asked here is where in the rules process does Reanimation Protocols occur. There seem to be two opinions:

Reanimation Protocols is an additional step to a resolution of attacks by a unit

Reanimation Protocols is a step that happens after a unit makes attacks

This is subtle difference as the first means it happens before anything else can happen, while the second means it can be considered to be occurring simultaneously with other followup actions from a unit making attacks (such as consolidation).

I will add this. The rules for Reanimation Protocols states "Each time an enemy unit shoot or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models were destroyed...." We know that when a unit fights it piles in, attacks, and then consolidates. RP specifically says when the unit fights after it attacks. To push RP until after consolidates means you are doing it after the unit fights entirely, not after it attacks when it fights. Therefore it must happen before consolidation.

 alextroy wrote:
At the risk of diving back into this issue, the timing question being asked here is where in the rules process does Reanimation Protocols occur. There seem to be two opinions:

Reanimation Protocols is an additional step to a resolution of attacks by a unit

Reanimation Protocols is a step that happens after a unit makes attacks

This is subtle difference as the first means it happens before anything else can happen, while the second means it can be considered to be occurring simultaneously with other followup actions from a unit making attacks (such as consolidation).

I will add this. The rules for Reanimation Protocols states "Each time an enemy unit shoot or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models were destroyed...." We know that when a unit fights it piles in, attacks, and then consolidates. RP specifically says when the unit fights after it attacks. To push RP until after consolidates means you are doing it after the unit fights entirely, not after it attacks when it fights. Therefore it must happen before consolidation.

Except the timing on both RP and consolidate are the same.

We know Reanimation Protocols happens after a unit makes attacks.

Best for people to discuss it with their opponent for now until an FAQ is published (If ever).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the timing on both RP and consolidate are the same.

Except they dont happen at the same time. The sequencing rule gives examples when rules are to be resolved at the same time, ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. If rule A says its resolved at the start of the battle round, and rule B also is resolved at the start of the battle round, then both rules would be resolved at the same time, and sequencing is used. I dont see anything in RP and the fight phase rules indicating that they would be resolved at the same time.

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

 p5freak wrote:
Except they dont happen at the same time.

You are 100% incorrect. They absolutely happen at the same time.

Reanimation Protocols rule wrote:Each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models in this unit were destroyed as a result of those attacks but this unit was not destroyed, this unit's reanimation protocols are enacted...

RP happens after the enemy unit makes its attacks.

Fight Phase rules wrote: FIGHT
When you select a unit to fight, it first piles in, then the models in the unit must make close combat attacks, and then the unit consolidates.

After the enemy unit makes its attacks, the unit consolidates.

So RP and the Consolidate rules both happen after a unit makes its attacks.

Ok, I've lost the argument again. Are we arguing for and against whether RP allows non-coherent models to be part of a unit?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I've lost the argument again. Are we arguing for and against whether RP allows non-coherent models to be part of a unit?

This thread is not about coherency, maybe you misposted?

 DeathReaper wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I've lost the argument again. Are we arguing for and against whether RP allows non-coherent models to be part of a unit?

This thread is not about coherency, maybe you misposted?

Yes. thank you, I thought this was the RP units out of coherency post. My mistake!

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Except they dont happen at the same time.

You are 100% incorrect. They absolutely happen at the same time.

Reanimation Protocols rule wrote:Each time an enemy unit shoots or fights, after it makes its attacks, if any models in this unit were destroyed as a result of those attacks but this unit was not destroyed, this unit's reanimation protocols are enacted...

RP happens after the enemy unit makes its attacks.

Fight Phase rules wrote: FIGHT
When you select a unit to fight, it first piles in, then the models in the unit must make close combat attacks, and then the unit consolidates.

After the enemy unit makes its attacks, the unit consolidates.

So RP and the Consolidate rules both happen after a unit makes its attacks.

No, they dont. I have given RAW examples when two or more rules are happening at the same time. Its when they have the same wording, like 'at the end of the battle round'.

DR is saying essentially consolidate, the next step, is also after the unit attacks

To be clear they should have, if they want it to interrupt, said, "after a unit attacks but before the consolidate step,..."