Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Should give them an option to spend 2cp to get a relic version one of their main weapons, obviously it would be the phase blade for the Callidus Assassin, The sniper rifle for the Vindicare, Animus Speculum for Culexus Assassin, ofc the Eversor could have like a better powersword or pistol, maybe even special combat drugs since hes that crazy honestly


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I came up with this idea based on the the spacemarine ability to go from like regular apothecary to master apothecary, or captain to chapter captain or w/e dumb buffs, only assassins are cool and space marines too common to be cool

We could go that route, but let's ask ourselves what our design goals are. The title of this thread implies that you think assassins need help, as in they're not good enough for their current cost. Presumably the idea here is to let you invest more resources into an assassin but end up with a more cost-effective unit if you do so.

If those assumptions are correct, then I worry that you'd end up solving the perceived weakness that makes them need help only for the upgraded version of the assassins. So say the default vindicaire is considered bad for its cost but your hypothetical relic makes the vindicaire good for its cost. At that point, the upgraded version should probably just be the default (and only) version of the vindicaire. After all, the base assumption is that the vindi can't do his job for his points.

If you just want an even more powerful version of the vindicaire because you like the idea/think it sounds cool, consider:
A.) "super vindicaires" retroactively make non-super vindicaires feel less special/elite by implication. The same way a space marine felt less special once GK and custodes became playable.

B.) How do you feel about making assassin "variants" that are different but not straight up better than default assassins? Similar to how harlequin characters and craftworld exarchs can now choose form a list of various abilities.

So for instance, you might have vindicaires that have been trained, augmented, and equipped to disable monsters and vehicles for inquisitorial/mechanicus study; they might be worse at killing characters but better at debuffing monsters and vehicles with each shot. Or you might have a callidus geared up to shut down communications and go straight for a target's head, sacrificing her Reign of Confusion ability for the ability to turn off buff auras. Maybe the Eversor has been brainwashed to wipe out isolated targets as long as possible before going for his main target in order to maximize the investment put into him. So you give him the ability to move after wiping out an enemy unit provided there are no other enemy models within X" of the last model in the unit to do.

Changes like that could add options to the assassin roster and change the way an assassin plays without making it straight up "better." Horizontal, not vertical.

I feel your statement heavily, that its somewhat redundant when you could just upgrade the assassin and be done with it.

Im thinking more of like you have your standard Culexus Assassin, then you have one that was born an absolute terrorfying void in the warp in by Culexus assassin standards.

Also iv been looking at builds and seeing that you can sometimes sacrifice your command points in "Build your own regiment lists" and soup lists. so for that particular army you aren't looking to spam that certain regiment specific strategem every round and can afford to spend some CP on something like a super heavy or in this case "upgrading your assassin" either with some freakishly good version of said assassin, or a relic given for that particular mission "entrusted to the assassin." a good example might be spending a CP to make your eversor assassin have a master-crafted power sword (which he should get standard, cuz hes freaking 100 pts)

But yes I agree this idea is a bit redundant

bat702 wrote:
I feel your statement heavily, that its somewhat redundant when you could just upgrade the assassin and be done with it.

The thing is that if we have "upgraded assassins" and "bad at their job" assassins, then we haven't added meaningful options to the game; we've ended up at the same number of meaningful options we should have had in the first place and added some messy, unnecessary rules on top of it. You don't need five versions of chimera if four of them are just worse versions of the default chimera that do the same job but worse. And if you came out with a better version of the chimera that was just a more points efficient version of the chimera, you probably wouldn't see the normal chimera fielded very often. Right?

Im thinking more of like you have your standard Culexus Assassin, then you have one that was born an absolute terrorfying void in the warp in by Culexus assassin standards.

See, this part makes me nervous. It has a lot of that, "but my guys is even more special" energy that risks leading to some units just being straight up better versions of other units and stealing their thunder as a result. No power sword space marine captain can be thought of as being that good in combat because we all know that Dante or Logan or whatever the latest smash captain equivalent is extra special better at fighting than the generic captain is. However special my farseer is in the fluff, we all know he's not as good at being a farseer as Eldrad Ulthran (except perhaps if he's using Eldrad's rules).

Assassins are already extreme extremes. You should never feel like your culexus can be described as "standard," and if you can, his rules probably aren't reflecting his fluff very well. Compare the following:

"I have a freakin' eversor!"
vs
"I have an eversor! But y'know. Not like, a top of his class eversor. He does fine. He's fine. He just doesn't have the right stuff to be one those really cool eversors."

If you make a super-assassin, everyone else's non-super assassin looks worse by comparison. That's why I prefer options that let you be different rather than better.

Also iv been looking at builds and seeing that you can sometimes sacrifice your command points in "Build your own regiment lists" and soup lists. so for that particular army you aren't looking to spam that certain regiment specific strategem every round and can afford to spend some CP on something like a super heavy or in this case "upgrading your assassin" either with some freakishly good version of said assassin, or a relic given for that particular mission "entrusted to the assassin." a good example might be spending a CP to make your eversor assassin have a master-crafted power sword (which he should get standard, cuz hes freaking 100 pts)

But yes I agree this idea is a bit redundant

Sure. I see what you're going for. They just introduced a bunch of options like that in the new durkhari codex. But speaking as a drukhari player, I'm finding that there are right and worng ways to do that sort of thing both in the same book. Upgrading one of my troop units (that I'm probably fielding multiples of anyway) feels good. It lets me point to a squad, call them my favorite, and write some fluff about how and why they're so much cooler than their peers. But conversely, the master archon/succubus/haemonculus upgrades are kind of frustrating. The benefits are useful and interesting, but I keep having to ask myself whether I want to spend points to represent my succubus being good at her job. Am I fielding the cool back-flipping succubus, or just an off-brand succubus that needs to work on her footwork but costs 15 fewer points?

From a strategic stand point, its fun to watch a weird soup list that starts off with 5 command points, vs a standard regiment of some sort that is rocking 12 command points and looking to spam some particular stratagems every round to win

It works in the sense that you can start to just say screw stratagems, Im going to spend my command points on things like relics, soup elements, a super heavy that is anti-meta

Oh sure. I don't have a problem with that sort of thing. Putting warlord traits and relics on everything can be cool. I'm just saying that it might be a bad idea to make assassin+ options. You want the un-upgraded version to still feel cool and relevant.

I agree its a bad idea in the sense that the game has too many rules at the moment.

That being said, I really want to see some assassin buffs, and perhaps one option might be to shift some of the points into command points cost

While I think relics for Assassins would be FUN, they're not the type of unit that would require it. Just upgrading their base weapons and rules to make them more worth their 85-100 points would be more simple.