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Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

Eldar and CSM the only ones left? You've forgotten Tau, GSC, Tyranids, Guard, GK, Thousand Sons, Harlequins, Custodes... so like, most of them...

Edit: Daemons too

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

And Nids, and Tau, and Guard, and Harlequins and Custodes and Daemons and and and and

We still have a long ways to go.

There's a lot more to go. Thousand Sons and Grey Knights are soon. Then there's Guard, Custodes, Knights (both flavours), Daemons, Tau, Harlequins, Nids, GSC, Ynnari(?), and yeah - CWE and CSMs.

Have I missed any?

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

GWs schedule doesn't work like that. They don't work on multiple books at once. They write one, finish it and move on. If it were the case that they worked on them all at the same time, later ones would be worked on longer and power creep and bad balance wouldn't be a thing GW are known for. Also from what I know they don't even start work on a book unless one of the writers expresses an interest in doing so or they HAVE to because there's no other armies to update (tyranids, for example, are not a popular army at GW HQ, which is why they consistently get half-assed books and rules), hence the totally scattershot approach to what gets released when.

Wouldn't be the focused on the 1ksons/GK soon.DG was ment for december and DE were suppose to be out in january. With the push that happened, either one should be coming right now, instead we are getting SoB, Ad Mecha, Orks. Which means that the order for stuff coming out has changed.

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

Historically speaking I'm gonna say no for CSM, yes for Eldar.

For any army that's shackled to The Great Space Marine Paradigm-ing, going later in the edition means your codex is more and more likely to be a wet fart compared to other armies who are independent and thus capable of participating in the power creep game.

That was the problem with, for example, GSC - so many of their units, roughly a third, are exactly identical to imperial guard units, but with an inherent massive drawback of "no warlord traits, no relics, no subfactions, no orders, no auras, no nothing." that whole third of the book is just nothing, and was tied in to one of the first 'dexes of the edition despite GSC being the last codex of the edition before Marines 2.0 set up the manufactured discontent cycle back up again for 9th.

Now, GW got basically all marines out of the way for 9th so that they can power creep the hell out of them, and since everyone got their gak pushed in by marines 2.0-3.0 for a year and a half with zero recourse, noooooooooooooobody is gonna feel bad about sticking the boot in now that they get their new Drukhari or Admech or whatever codex.

I'll freely admit it - the first time I came in and absolutely SLAUGHTERED a marine army with my new drukhari codex after so many ridiuculous uphill battles against stupid fething doctrines, it felt GREAT. It was in no way balanced or fair or healthy for the game, but emotionally it just felt good to finally have the completely unfair shoe on the other foot.

We're into the period of the edition where each new codex creates a massive power spike over the last, and it seems like we've set MEQ armies up to be the whipping boys for a while yet again. That bodes extremely badly for CSM in my eyes.

The optimal time to get a codex in my eyes is right about now. Early enough that you actually get to play with it for a while, and not so late that your gak just gets instantly dumpstered by a new edition paradigm shift like GSC did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't be the focused on the 1ksons/GK soon.DG was ment for december and DE were suppose to be out in january. With the push that happened, either one should be coming right now, instead we are getting SoB, Ad Mecha, Orks. Which means that the order for stuff coming out has changed.

Tsons and GK are seemingly coming out before orks.

I do want to have high hopes that CSM, and to an extent TS will have some decent buffs, but my more-cynical expectations are that the book will be rather generic with a lot of the CSM's defining traits such as DotFE removed, as it was with DG. We'll see the "only equipped with whatever's in the box" rule that we've seen with every book except SM, and we may get a couple of new plastic characters.

For Eldar I'm a bit more hopeful after seeing the buffs certain lacking units in the DE codex received, but not expecting any new plastics.

 Valkyrie wrote:
my more-cynical expectations are that the book will be rather generic with a lot of the CSM's defining traits such as DotFE removed, as it was with DG.

Honestly trading hateful blows and DttFE for a flat +1 attack really gave DG a good feel whenever they are in combat (especially in combination with contagions) and it makes taking special melee weapons feel much less of a waste of points. Heck, even giving unit champions relics makes sense now.
In general the army now feels 100% like playing the DG from the novels and fluff and I hope they try to capture the same feel for all other legions as well.

 the_scotsman wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

Historically speaking I'm gonna say no for CSM, yes for Eldar.

For any army that's shackled to The Great Space Marine Paradigm-ing, going later in the edition means your codex is more and more likely to be a wet fart compared to other armies who are independent and thus capable of participating in the power creep game.

That was the problem with, for example, GSC - so many of their units, roughly a third, are exactly identical to imperial guard units, but with an inherent massive drawback of "no warlord traits, no relics, no subfactions, no orders, no auras, no nothing." that whole third of the book is just nothing, and was tied in to one of the first 'dexes of the edition despite GSC being the last codex of the edition before Marines 2.0 set up the manufactured discontent cycle back up again for 9th.

Now, GW got basically all marines out of the way for 9th so that they can power creep the hell out of them, and since everyone got their gak pushed in by marines 2.0-3.0 for a year and a half with zero recourse, noooooooooooooobody is gonna feel bad about sticking the boot in now that they get their new Drukhari or Admech or whatever codex.

I'll freely admit it - the first time I came in and absolutely SLAUGHTERED a marine army with my new drukhari codex after so many ridiuculous uphill battles against stupid fething doctrines, it felt GREAT. It was in no way balanced or fair or healthy for the game, but emotionally it just felt good to finally have the completely unfair shoe on the other foot.

We're into the period of the edition where each new codex creates a massive power spike over the last, and it seems like we've set MEQ armies up to be the whipping boys for a while yet again. That bodes extremely badly for CSM in my eyes.

The optimal time to get a codex in my eyes is right about now. Early enough that you actually get to play with it for a while, and not so late that your gak just gets instantly dumpstered by a new edition paradigm shift like GSC did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't be the focused on the 1ksons/GK soon.DG was ment for december and DE were suppose to be out in january. With the push that happened, either one should be coming right now, instead we are getting SoB, Ad Mecha, Orks. Which means that the order for stuff coming out has changed.

Tsons and GK are seemingly coming out before orks.

Well, thinking of the two examples of CSM getting our codex early in an edition (6th and 8th) compared to the one that came late (3.5), yeah, I'll wait.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

Historically speaking I'm gonna say no for CSM, yes for Eldar.

For any army that's shackled to The Great Space Marine Paradigm-ing, going later in the edition means your codex is more and more likely to be a wet fart compared to other armies who are independent and thus capable of participating in the power creep game.

That was the problem with, for example, GSC - so many of their units, roughly a third, are exactly identical to imperial guard units, but with an inherent massive drawback of "no warlord traits, no relics, no subfactions, no orders, no auras, no nothing." that whole third of the book is just nothing, and was tied in to one of the first 'dexes of the edition despite GSC being the last codex of the edition before Marines 2.0 set up the manufactured discontent cycle back up again for 9th.

Now, GW got basically all marines out of the way for 9th so that they can power creep the hell out of them, and since everyone got their gak pushed in by marines 2.0-3.0 for a year and a half with zero recourse, noooooooooooooobody is gonna feel bad about sticking the boot in now that they get their new Drukhari or Admech or whatever codex.

I'll freely admit it - the first time I came in and absolutely SLAUGHTERED a marine army with my new drukhari codex after so many ridiuculous uphill battles against stupid fething doctrines, it felt GREAT. It was in no way balanced or fair or healthy for the game, but emotionally it just felt good to finally have the completely unfair shoe on the other foot.

We're into the period of the edition where each new codex creates a massive power spike over the last, and it seems like we've set MEQ armies up to be the whipping boys for a while yet again. That bodes extremely badly for CSM in my eyes.

The optimal time to get a codex in my eyes is right about now. Early enough that you actually get to play with it for a while, and not so late that your gak just gets instantly dumpstered by a new edition paradigm shift like GSC did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't be the focused on the 1ksons/GK soon.DG was ment for december and DE were suppose to be out in january. With the push that happened, either one should be coming right now, instead we are getting SoB, Ad Mecha, Orks. Which means that the order for stuff coming out has changed.

Tsons and GK are seemingly coming out before orks.

Well, thinking of the two examples of CSM getting our codex early in an edition (6th and 8th) compared to the one that came late (3.5), yeah, I'll wait.

Sure, I guess you can say that the late 3rd ed codex came out great, mostly I'm thinking about the late edition codexes that space wolves, deathwatch, and such got last edition that don't have me super pumped for CSM going into the "9.5" power level era where GW got done curbing the excesses of 8.5 and is now into embracing the excesses of 9.5 (hyper efficient buffing characters through rerolls REMOVED, you were sick of them, done, no more reroll all to hit and all to wound, woohoo.....anyway here's your holy order techpriest dominus who has sixteen different unique buff abilities you can stack onto 20 skitarii rangers, enjoy.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
my more-cynical expectations are that the book will be rather generic with a lot of the CSM's defining traits such as DotFE removed, as it was with DG.

Honestly trading hateful blows and DttFE for a flat +1 attack really gave DG a good feel whenever they are in combat (especially in combination with contagions) and it makes taking special melee weapons feel much less of a waste of points. Heck, even giving unit champions relics makes sense now.
In general the army now feels 100% like playing the DG from the novels and fluff and I hope they try to capture the same feel for all other legions as well.

Yeah, and honestly I gotta say: At least my thousand sons are already completely by-the-box wysiwyg anyway and have been since they launched in 7th.

Though I do find it curious that GW is unwilling to give me actual by the box rules. Hey GW, if the min squad size is 5 why cant I take a soulreaper cannon in a 5-man squad? I can build it like that from the box...

Hey GW, how come the tzaangor box comes with a bunch of shields that don't do anything?

Hey GW, how come I can't make a heavy warpflamer and a soulreaper cannon out of my squad of terminators?

Hey GW, what are all these bits in the Exalted Sorceror kit? you owe me rules for all of these GW, it's all there in the box...

 the_scotsman wrote:

Hey GW, how come the tzaangor box comes with a bunch of shields that don't do anything?

Easy answer: Because those sprues are for AoS - where shields do do something. The Tzaangors are just pulling double duty by being available in 40k.
A better question would be why doesn't your 1KS codex contain rules for Tzaangor shields?

ccs wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

Hey GW, how come the tzaangor box comes with a bunch of shields that don't do anything?

Easy answer: Because those sprues are for AoS - where shields do do something. The Tzaangors are just pulling double duty by being available in 40k.
A better question would be why doesn't your 1KS codex contain rules for Tzaangor shields?

...Yeah, that's my point. Tsons might be the only codex in the game where a commitment to "no model, no rules" actually ought to GAIN us MORE rules. The Tsons model range has a TON of random ass bits that have no rules associated with them.

Exalted Sorcerors, the single most customizable in appearance and armament HQ in the entire game out of the actual official kit for it, has like...2 options. Disc or nah, Staff and Pistol or Staff and Sword.

Meanwhile the kit has flying bird skull attack tassels, floaty taloned chicken legs, 15 different staff heads, 4 different looking pistols, various mutated arms and heads and gak, and there's no rules for any of it.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

Historically speaking I'm gonna say no for CSM, yes for Eldar.

For any army that's shackled to The Great Space Marine Paradigm-ing, going later in the edition means your codex is more and more likely to be a wet fart compared to other armies who are independent and thus capable of participating in the power creep game.

That was the problem with, for example, GSC - so many of their units, roughly a third, are exactly identical to imperial guard units, but with an inherent massive drawback of "no warlord traits, no relics, no subfactions, no orders, no auras, no nothing." that whole third of the book is just nothing, and was tied in to one of the first 'dexes of the edition despite GSC being the last codex of the edition before Marines 2.0 set up the manufactured discontent cycle back up again for 9th.

Now, GW got basically all marines out of the way for 9th so that they can power creep the hell out of them, and since everyone got their gak pushed in by marines 2.0-3.0 for a year and a half with zero recourse, noooooooooooooobody is gonna feel bad about sticking the boot in now that they get their new Drukhari or Admech or whatever codex.

I'll freely admit it - the first time I came in and absolutely SLAUGHTERED a marine army with my new drukhari codex after so many ridiuculous uphill battles against stupid fething doctrines, it felt GREAT. It was in no way balanced or fair or healthy for the game, but emotionally it just felt good to finally have the completely unfair shoe on the other foot.

We're into the period of the edition where each new codex creates a massive power spike over the last, and it seems like we've set MEQ armies up to be the whipping boys for a while yet again. That bodes extremely badly for CSM in my eyes.

The optimal time to get a codex in my eyes is right about now. Early enough that you actually get to play with it for a while, and not so late that your gak just gets instantly dumpstered by a new edition paradigm shift like GSC did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't be the focused on the 1ksons/GK soon.DG was ment for december and DE were suppose to be out in january. With the push that happened, either one should be coming right now, instead we are getting SoB, Ad Mecha, Orks. Which means that the order for stuff coming out has changed.

Tsons and GK are seemingly coming out before orks.

Well, thinking of the two examples of CSM getting our codex early in an edition (6th and 8th) compared to the one that came late (3.5), yeah, I'll wait.

Sure, I guess you can say that the late 3rd ed codex came out great, mostly I'm thinking about the late edition codexes that space wolves, deathwatch, and such got last edition that don't have me super pumped for CSM going into the "9.5" power level era where GW got done curbing the excesses of 8.5 and is now into embracing the excesses of 9.5 (hyper efficient buffing characters through rerolls REMOVED, you were sick of them, done, no more reroll all to hit and all to wound, woohoo.....anyway here's your holy order techpriest dominus who has sixteen different unique buff abilities you can stack onto 20 skitarii rangers, enjoy.)

Rerolling everything was a loyalist thing. The only Legion that could get close to that was Black if they brought Abigail. CSM suffer from similar problems as our Death Guard cousins did: units that don't punch their weight unless you pump them full of CP and psychic powers. Right now I'm judging CSM based on the units we've actually had updated in the Compendium. That stuff punches it's weight, as do Death Guard. If our codex gets similar treatment I think CSM will be fine. The previewed Orks and SoB stuff doesn't worry me so far with our 8th edition rules, Admech just give me a headache. Haven't figured them out yet.

Jidmah wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
my more-cynical expectations are that the book will be rather generic with a lot of the CSM's defining traits such as DotFE removed, as it was with DG.

Honestly trading hateful blows and DttFE for a flat +1 attack really gave DG a good feel whenever they are in combat (especially in combination with contagions) and it makes taking special melee weapons feel much less of a waste of points. Heck, even giving unit champions relics makes sense now.
In general the army now feels 100% like playing the DG from the novels and fluff and I hope they try to capture the same feel for all other legions as well.

I'll gladly give up DttFE for +1 attack. But Contagions made up for the loss of Hateful Assault. If CSM lose both, but don't get anything besides +1 attack for the trade, then the Legions will be inferior to loyalists in melee. That ain't cool. We'll need something else if we lose Hateful Assault.

mrFickle wrote:
Of the top of my head eldar and CSM are the only armies left to get a new codex, is the fact that they have been left until late a good thing?

More time = more effort and maybe *eek* more models????

Eldar, CSM and 10 more factions are still waiting an updated codex to be even announced.
Still 16 books left, if we count Sisters, Orks, TS and GK that we know are coming out soon. Maybe 22 if they want to update the SM supplements stuck in 8th ed.

The game being in a poor state of balance is bad for all armies. The balance in the game has never been this bad and it is getting worse.

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.

I suppose when CWE comes out... Dire avenger units will get a stratagem that all their hits autowound and count as 6's for shuriken hits. Then when Tau come out their firewarriors will get a stratagem that makes firewarriors ap-5 for 1 cp.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.

This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"

Well if you play Eldar (I hate the new name) if history holds up you will be really happy when your codex comes out. Historically, I can't remember a single time that a Eldar dex came out and it wasn't top tier at least. And 7th edition was one of the worst most broken codex ever. So, I am expecting their 9th to be outrageous.

Also, if you lived though the time when it took like 5 plus years to get a new dex, this release schedule is warp speed. It should be done by this time next year which is nuts. Then we will get 10th and start all over again lol.

 xeen wrote:
Well if you play Eldar (I hate the new name) if history holds up you will be really happy when your codex comes out. Historically, I can't remember a single time that a Eldar dex came out and it wasn't top tier at least. And 7th edition was one of the worst most broken codex ever. So, I am expecting their 9th to be outrageous.

Also, if you lived though the time when it took like 5 plus years to get a new dex, this release schedule is warp speed. It should be done by this time next year which is nuts. Then we will get 10th and start all over again lol.

Eldar have historically had 1-2 broken units and a codex of pure garbage that basically forced you to spam said broken units.

I'm concerned as to what design space there is left to bring CSM up to parity with the other factions with 9th codexes. I'd say the same for guard too.

So many standard weapons we already know haven't been changed. I'd say the biggest tools loyalist marines are leaning into right now are storm shields and multi melta neither of which csm have access to.

Landspeeders, attack bikes no access. We know our vehicles will be trash because the loyalist versions are.

They can't really mess with the standard CSM profile so giving an extra attack is probably out although they could keep hateful assault in place obviously.

Seeing Orks go to T5, and all the Gravis etc kicking around our bolters are just useless in this meta and completely lack AP in a world where plenty loyalist bolters are hitting AP -2.

I think whatever doctrine equivalents or legion traits we get they are going to need to be really really strong to bring our baseline to a place where we can compete. The extra wound on marines is not gonna be anywhere near enough.

Hopefully they increase the fluffiness and make marks of chaos really make a difference and allow proper always on boosts or something.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.

This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"

Spoiler:

Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm concerned as to what design space there is left to bring CSM up to parity with the other factions with 9th codexes. I'd say the same for guard too.

So many standard weapons we already know haven't been changed. I'd say the biggest tools loyalist marines are leaning into right now are storm shields and multi melta neither of which csm have access to.

Landspeeders, attack bikes no access. We know our vehicles will be trash because the loyalist versions are.

They can't really mess with the standard CSM profile so giving an extra attack is probably out although they could keep hateful assault in place obviously.

Seeing Orks go to T5, and all the Gravis etc kicking around our bolters are just useless in this meta and completely lack AP in a world where plenty loyalist bolters are hitting AP -2.

I think whatever doctrine equivalents or legion traits we get they are going to need to be really really strong to bring our baseline to a place where we can compete. The extra wound on marines is not gonna be anywhere near enough.

Hopefully they increase the fluffiness and make marks of chaos really make a difference and allow proper always on boosts or something.

Why can't they make CSM 2A? They did it for Kabalites, and Plague Marines.

As for "increasing the fluffiness" and marks: they'll have to make Undivided do something. Because if they stick with the same fluff they used in 3.5 and Traitor Legions, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors won't be able to take anything else.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.

This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"

Spoiler:

Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.

Yes, if you take yourself a 20-man block of skitarii (160pts)
Put them in the Agripinaa forgeworld
Walk all 20 of them into 12" range of a target (6" move btw)
Stick them near a techpriest manipulus (75pts)
Pop your once per game +1BS doctrina imperative
Stick them near a Techpriest Dominus (75pts) or Skitarii Marshal with the rr1s to hit trait (45pts+WL trait)
and pop the Saturated Rounds stratagem (1cp) to boost their auto-wound on a 6 to hit up to auto-wound on a 4 to hit

Then that combined 310pts+1cp or 280pts+1cp+WL trait can deal 30 AP-2 autowounds and 5 Ap-2 regular wounds (assuming wounding on 6s) to any target they like.

The reason it's a xenomancers bs statement is because you always, always, consistently just say "x can do y" without ever explaining fully what the hell X has to do to get into a position to do Y, like I've listed out above.

The 4+ to hit auto-wounds anything but vehicles strat is busted for 1cp, there's not much doubt about it. The normal strat is 6s to hit autowound, this is literally 3 times better for no real reason.

It's so busted you almost wonder whether it's a typo and it was intended to be a 4+ to wound auto wounds, like an inverse transhuman.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.

This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"

Spoiler:

Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.

Yes, if you take yourself a 20-man block of skitarii (160pts)
Put them in the Agripinaa forgeworld
Walk all 20 of them into 12" range of a target (6" move btw)
Stick them near a techpriest manipulus (75pts)
Pop your once per game +1BS doctrina imperative
Stick them near a Techpriest Dominus (75pts) or Skitarii Marshal with the rr1s to hit trait (45pts+WL trait)
and pop the Saturated Rounds stratagem (1cp) to boost their auto-wound on a 6 to hit up to auto-wound on a 4 to hit

Then that combined 310pts+1cp or 280pts+1cp+WL trait can deal 30 AP-2 autowounds and 5 Ap-2 regular wounds (assuming wounding on 6s) to any target they like.

The reason it's a xenomancers bs statement is because you always, always, consistently just say "x can do y" without ever explaining fully what the hell X has to do to get into a position to do Y, like I've listed out above.

TY for the detailed description that literally everyone already knows how it works.

They also know Admech has methods to turn 1 deep strike...
and can also deep strike another 1 or 2 of these units after that. Destroying your units without much need to actually roll.

It is going to be the dumbest period in 40 history. I am literally not playing it. A mass hiatus is going to take place.

Lets just be clear about everyone that is unhappy about the state of the game right now.
Every Space marine player has finally figured out this is the same old stroy. Marines are going to be the worst army in the game for yet another edition. Getting rules first and creeped to death.
CSM are literally still at 1 wound after over a year of the edition playing 8th edition 40k in 9th edition. It is a joke. CSM go almost no support from PA. They are bottom teir.
Space marine and CSM players make up something like 50% of the player base.
Not to mention every other faction that has yet to recieve rules....yet force to play against the likes of ad mech and DE...LOL.
Prepare to see shops...empty...again. Tournments loaded with DE and Admech...with the same name winning over and over. The game is over.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 4+ to hit auto-wounds anything but vehicles strat is busted for 1cp, there's not much doubt about it. The normal strat is 6s to hit autowound, this is literally 3 times better for no real reason.

It's so busted you almost wonder whether it's a typo and it was intended to be a 4+ to wound auto wounds, like an inverse transhuman.

What "normal strat" are we talking about here?

The guns already autowound on a 6 to hit, that's what "radium" does as a trait in the new codex. They probably overshot it a bit, and if GW was in the habit of ever balancing anything, I'd say it should be a 5+ instead of 4+ for 1cp, or the way it currently works for 2cp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Literally 160 point squads are going to be putting 20-30 -2 AP wounds on any target in the game. The game is done.

This is a xenomancers bs post, btw. Equivalent to:

"Devastator squads are literally a 195pt unit that literally oneshot a warhound titan*"

Spoiler:

Next to tor garadon, armed with multi-meltas and an armorium cherub, in the devastator doctrine, in a drop pod, next to a lieutenant, using the Imperial Fists Tank Hunters stratagem, against a Warhound Titan that has had its Void Shield points stripped away but is otherwise at full hp

Why trivialize my accurate statement? Tell me. How many wounds is a unit with 60 shots auto wounding on 4+ to hit and rerolling all hits gonna do?

The game is literally a joke and I am done with it. I will not be alone.

I'd hate to leave you alone with no one to play your busted DE with. Sadly that is what is gonna happen. Space marine players see the schtick and unfortunately they are the majority of players. Nerf Centurians to unplayable and come out with sisters Centurians...Yep - I quit.

Yes, if you take yourself a 20-man block of skitarii (160pts)
Put them in the Agripinaa forgeworld
Walk all 20 of them into 12" range of a target (6" move btw)
Stick them near a techpriest manipulus (75pts)
Pop your once per game +1BS doctrina imperative
Stick them near a Techpriest Dominus (75pts) or Skitarii Marshal with the rr1s to hit trait (45pts+WL trait)
and pop the Saturated Rounds stratagem (1cp) to boost their auto-wound on a 6 to hit up to auto-wound on a 4 to hit

Then that combined 310pts+1cp or 280pts+1cp+WL trait can deal 30 AP-2 autowounds and 5 Ap-2 regular wounds (assuming wounding on 6s) to any target they like.

The reason it's a xenomancers bs statement is because you always, always, consistently just say "x can do y" without ever explaining fully what the hell X has to do to get into a position to do Y, like I've listed out above.

TY for the detailed description that literally everyone already knows how it works.

They also know Admech has methods to turn 1 deep strike...
and can also deep strike another 1 or 2 of these units after that. Destroying your units without much need to actually roll.

It is going to be the dumbest period in 40 history. I am literally not playing it. A mass hiatus is going to take place.

Lets just be clear about everyone that is unhappy about the state of the game right now.
Every Space marine player has finally figured out this is the same old stroy. Marines are going to be the worst army in the game for yet another edition. Getting rules first and creeped to death.
CSM are literally still at 1 wound after over a year of the edition playing 8th edition 40k in 9th edition. It is a joke. CSM go almost no support from PA. They are bottom teir.
Space marine and CSM players make up something like 50% of the player base. Prepare to see shops...empty...again.

Noted, chicken little. Just like SM 2.0 completely and utterly decimated my local shop's attendance, as it went from "mix of everything" to "literally just the marine players" to "only the marine players who haven't gotten sick of playing each other" to "whoops covid."

but I'm sure the...let's see...one person with a dark eldar army as one of his 8 armies, and 2 people with admech armies will definitely, definitely kill the 40k scene for us. Yep, that's whats gonna happen.

 the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 4+ to hit auto-wounds anything but vehicles strat is busted for 1cp, there's not much doubt about it. The normal strat is 6s to hit autowound, this is literally 3 times better for no real reason.

It's so busted you almost wonder whether it's a typo and it was intended to be a 4+ to wound auto wounds, like an inverse transhuman.

What "normal strat" are we talking about here?

The guns already autowound on a 6 to hit, that's what "radium" does as a trait in the new codex. They probably overshot it a bit, and if GW was in the habit of ever balancing anything, I'd say it should be a 5+ instead of 4+ for 1cp, or the way it currently works for 2cp.

Probably speaking about the necron stratagem that's 6+ to hit is auto wounds. It is literally just creep. No defending it.

Several other factions have strats that let 6s to hit auto-wound. They're all over the place.

Yeah, you're right re: the radium base ability. So it should be a 5+, not a 4+. That still makes it literally twice as good as it should be.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 4+ to hit auto-wounds anything but vehicles strat is busted for 1cp, there's not much doubt about it. The normal strat is 6s to hit autowound, this is literally 3 times better for no real reason.

It's so busted you almost wonder whether it's a typo and it was intended to be a 4+ to wound auto wounds, like an inverse transhuman.

What "normal strat" are we talking about here?

The guns already autowound on a 6 to hit, that's what "radium" does as a trait in the new codex. They probably overshot it a bit, and if GW was in the habit of ever balancing anything, I'd say it should be a 5+ instead of 4+ for 1cp, or the way it currently works for 2cp.

Probably speaking about the necron stratagem that's 6+ to hit is auto wounds. It is literally just creep. No defending it.

I think its pretty clearly stronger, but I can at least see the universe someone could be living in to put the two next to each other and think it was OK.

Radium weapons are all base AP-, 1d weapons, and they already wound automatically on a 6. So you're improving that ability by +2, and you're limiting it so it doesn't work vs vehicles.

Gauss weapons are base AP-1 at least, and can be AP-3 Dd3 (on destroyers). You're also not limiting it to non-vehicles.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Several other factions have strats that let 6s to hit auto-wound. They're all over the place.

Yeah, you're right re: the radium base ability. So it should be a 5+, not a 4+. That still makes it literally twice as good as it should be.

So the thing I just said. We agree.

*shrug* I guess it's just tough for me to see a 1cp strat that should be 2cp as the harbinger of damnation. Endless Cacaphony for 2cp lasted for how long without totally shattering the universe?

It's not "the harbinger of damnation." But it's another example of bad balancing. The amount of stuff you can stack onto a 20-block of skitarii makes them absurdly deadly for their cost, while also having the potential to be absurdly tanky too if they want to be. It's a classic example of not appreciating the consequences of all the buff-stacking the book allows. Something GW has repeatedly been guilty of. 9th was supposed to be getting rid of the overeliance on auras that characterized 8th edition, but we've just replaced it with an overreliance on targeted buffs that are even stronger, which basically takes us back to where we were before 8th.

Honestly, the big problem was letting Skitarii go up to 20 man squads. There was zero reason to do this, and it is what puts them over the top. I really get the impression GW doesn't understand how exponentials work. A 1CP strat to make 4+ to hit auto-wound might be ok on a 10-man Skitarii; a cheap way to give a 10-man Skitarii squad ignore AP-1 and AP-2 might be ok; ditto a cheap transuman; ditto a cheap -1AP, + range, etc etc...but when you stack all these things TOGETHER, and then you double the unit size, you end up with something that's far more efficient than it should be, because you didn't understand how math works.

The problem is that they can't decrease the unit size, it's not something GW does. So the most obvious fix to the problem is off the table from the start.