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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Drukhari are one of my main armies. I've played them more than any of my other factions this year. So understand that this thread isn't meant to demonize them or attack the army or those who play it. But the book contains an odd assortment of design decisions that I just kind of wanted to rant about. Ignore this post or add your own complaints/wishlisting; whichever will add the most to your day.

In no particular order:
* It really feels like they upped our offense as a form of blind power creep to keep pace with marines rather than attempting to give us a more unique playstyle. We aren't that fast compared to, say, certain marine factions. We aren't even that squishy. We're just loaded to the gills with raw offense that is points efficient enough to let us kind of throw ourselves at the enemy and have a decent chance of winning.

* I could do without Blade Artists. It slows down dice rolling. It only has a 1 in 6 chance (on the to-wound roll) of having a 1 in 6 chance (on the armor save roll) of doing anything. When it does do something, it just raises our raw offense a smidge more for doing what our units were already going to do. No interesting decisions created; just a slight power boost at the cost of a slight dice rolling slowdown.

* Power From Pain still doesn't feel right. They introduced it in 5th where it was clunky but viscerally satisfying and useful. They got rid of the clunkiness in 7th, but also took away the visceral satisfaction. Currently, it still doesn't "feel good," as a mechanic the way its original incarnation did, it's abstract enough to not really capture the fluff it's going for very well, and it feels bad to give it up if you want to ally with non-drukhari. Like, coven units kind of can't do their job very well without this rule.

* It's kind of a baked in assumption that a big chunk of your army will be inside transports, but our HQs' buffs can't benefit units embarked on transports. This feels like a lazy copy and paste of similar rules from marines who don't mind getting out of their transports (and have to to contribute offensively.)

* What's up with trueborn? I get that they didn't want to make them another "take more special guns in a squad" unit, but what story are they telling exactly? They're meant to be the elite rich kids with the best toys and training. But instead, they're equipped with the same gear as normal warriors and are encouraged to be taken in 10-man squads so you can get more darklight weapons that benefit from their 2+ BS. Meaning that the "elite" rich kids frequently outnumber my non-elite warrior squads. Also, apparently all trueborn have sniping skills that put dark reapers to shame, but a dracon who becomes an archon loses his edge and stops shooting as well as he used to?

Really feels like these guys should be a company veterans style unit that can crack open the armoury. Or maybe just roll them into the court of the archon and let them contribute some special weapon shots to a shooty court.

* I think I preferred old splinter cannons. The new one seems to have been made to kill marines, but we have other weapons that do that better. I'd rather have more shots again both to make things like venoms more viable against hordes and because shooting 12 shots with one cheap-ish vehicle is satisfying.

* I really like the Poisoned Tongue kabal's fluff, but they continue to not have much to reflect their emphasis on cunning aside from a generic redeploy strat (that can only affect my kabal units.) Give these guys Labyrinthine Cunning or a chapter tactic that makes them feel clever instead of just leaning into literal poison because of the name.

* I wish I could customize coven units more. The whole appeal of that subfaction, to me, is the creative mad scientist/body horror artist thing. I want each unit of grotesques and pain engines to feel like someone's unique shock value art project. The crusade rules help with this somewhat.

* I miss the quirky, unique wargear. Half of our mele weapon options are never-takes because they're just worse versions of other options. In the olden days, many of these options had unique rules that made them, not necessarily as competitive as the "best" options, but interestingly different. A mindphase gauntlet could help take an enemy out of the fight even if it's too tough to kill outright. Flesh gauntlets were bad at doing consistent damage, but they had a chance of auto-killing their target. And that's without getting into the options archons used to have or all the crazy 5th edition one-use relics haemonculi had. Or how about those zany (admittedly never quite good) webway portal generator rules?

* I miss being able to customize sergeants more. Why can't I give a sybarite a venom blade any more?

Obviously drukhari as a faction are doing well right now. Perhaps a little too well. But that doesn't mean there isn't still room for improvement.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So what first attracted you to the most overpowered army currently in the game?

Yeah... I'm really not feeling DE at the moment. Maybe it was the long sad years of being kind of an underdog (even if they were very good for much of 8th) - but as a result of the changes every unit kind of feels the same.

Its just a sea of clearly overpowered beige. Wyches, Incubi, Wracks, Court, Archons, Succubi, Drazhar... it all just rides around in raiders and then jumps out to murder whatever. Maybe there's some variety in "I'm bringing Hellions" and "I'm bringing six DT Cronos" or something, but it feels kind of lacking. What was once very much the Johnny Faction now just feels as one dimensional as Space Marines. ​

And rather than the buffs you hope for, they are probably going to get nerfed to oblivion in some future CA. I.E. Raiders up 5-10, Cronos up 5-10, Succubus up 5, Wyches, Wracks, Incubi and Hellions all up 1, Slyth and Ur-Ghuls up 2.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
So what first attracted you to the most overpowered army currently in the game?

Yeah... I'm really not feeling DE at the moment. Maybe it was the long sad years of being kind of an underdog (even if they were very good for much of 8th) - but as a result of the changes every unit kind of feels the same.

Its just a sea of clearly overpowered beige. Wyches, Incubi, Wracks, Court, Archons, Succubi, Drazhar... it all just rides around in raiders and then jumps out to murder whatever. Maybe there's some variety in "I'm bringing Hellions" and "I'm bringing six DT Cronos" or something, but it feels kind of lacking. What was once very much the Johnny Faction now just feels as one dimensional as Space Marines. ​

And rather than the buffs you hope for, they are probably going to get nerfed to oblivion in some future CA. I.E. Raiders up 5-10, Cronos up 5-10, Succubus up 5, Wyches, Wracks, Incubi and Hellions all up 1, Slyth and Ur-Ghuls up 2.


It does sound more and more like slapping raiders is the way forward for DE to promote more stuff that doesn't rely on them.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Tyel wrote:
So what first attracted you to the most overpowered army currently in the game?

Yeah... I'm really not feeling DE at the moment. Maybe it was the long sad years of being kind of an underdog (even if they were very good for much of 8th) - but as a result of the changes every unit kind of feels the same.

Its just a sea of clearly overpowered beige. Wyches, Incubi, Wracks, Court, Archons, Succubi, Drazhar... it all just rides around in raiders and then jumps out to murder whatever. Maybe there's some variety in "I'm bringing Hellions" and "I'm bringing six DT Cronos" or something, but it feels kind of lacking. What was once very much the Johnny Faction now just feels as one dimensional as Space Marines. ​

And rather than the buffs you hope for, they are probably going to get nerfed to oblivion in some future CA. I.E. Raiders up 5-10, Cronos up 5-10, Succubus up 5, Wyches, Wracks, Incubi and Hellions all up 1, Slyth and Ur-Ghuls up 2.



Did you even read what he wrote?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

Tyel wrote:
And rather than the buffs you hope for, they are probably going to get nerfed to oblivion in some future CA. I.E. Raiders up 5-10, Cronos up 5-10, Succubus up 5, Wyches, Wracks, Incubi and Hellions all up 1, Slyth and Ur-Ghuls up 2.


This would hardly be nerfing into oblivion. This is actually where most of the points should be already and it would still be a strong dex.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran



Dudley, UK

 Bosskelot wrote:
Tyel wrote:
And rather than the buffs you hope for, they are probably going to get nerfed to oblivion in some future CA. I.E. Raiders up 5-10, Cronos up 5-10, Succubus up 5, Wyches, Wracks, Incubi and Hellions all up 1, Slyth and Ur-Ghuls up 2.


This would hardly be nerfing into oblivion. This is actually where most of the points should be already and it would still be a strong dex.


Honestly, one of the biggest issues to my mind is exemplified by how *much* one of the Wych Cults outperforms the others due to their abundance of options that are chiefly controlled by CP rather than points - yet the options are the most interesting bits of the army.
   
Made in ca
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster



Ottawa

There should be scourge archons (winged) and hellion succubi (riding a skyboard). Maybe even jetbike succubi.

For the archon, there should be protection options other than the shadowfield, with which many Drukhari players have a love-hate relationship.

The court of the archon is currently in a weird place and it looks like nobody at GW is quite sure what niche they fill, apart from flavor. They don't have their own stratagem. Their models have been in finecast hell since forever. I'd like them to be good at something, because I just love the idea of an archon going to war with his motley retinue of poisoners, aliens and mutants. (Also, my beautifully converted Sslyths are gathering dust.)

Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Argent Shroud), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sorry to do this to you again Dakka, but for me, what makes the 9th ed Drukhari dex awesome is the Crusade rules for territories and Ascendant Lords.

It's crazy better than GW's half hearted "Gangs of Commorragh" minigame, and it's baked right into the dex.

For me, it more than makes up for any shortcomings in the dex.

I was also stoked about the favoured retinue rules- particularly the Haemoxcytes, which did not exist in prior dexes (while both Trueborn and Bloodbrides did). I would also disagree with OP's thoughts on Trueborn: I think it is excellent that their buff is based on shooting, and very appropriate.

Your mileage may vary.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Bosskelot wrote:
Tyel wrote:
And rather than the buffs you hope for, they are probably going to get nerfed to oblivion in some future CA. I.E. Raiders up 5-10, Cronos up 5-10, Succubus up 5, Wyches, Wracks, Incubi and Hellions all up 1, Slyth and Ur-Ghuls up 2.


This would hardly be nerfing into oblivion. This is actually where most of the points should be already and it would still be a strong dex.


I guess that's fair. Maybe. Its hard to imagine how list would evolve if you had to cut out 100-150 points.

For tneva82 - on not reading the original post - I did so. I guess writing it off as a request for buffs was a bit cold. Much of it I agreed with (as per the first few paragraphs).
But equally... yeah. I don't think DE characters should ignore the rules on auras inside vehicles. I guess you could argue for *all* armies enjoying this bonus with open topped - but this moves back to open topped being increasingly broken (or "not-open topped" being increasingly crap by comparison). I know some people want Blasterborn back, but I think what you have now is fine.
I agree Blade Artisans is needless busy work that adds nothing fun to the game. Its presumably done to encourage assault (which had been kind of bad the last 7ish years), but, while its sort of stepping Marine toes, but I'd probably just give everyone a guaranteed point of AP in assault from Turn 3 onwards and rebalance accordingly.
I think DE *are* fast compared with most factions. Between flying transports going wherever you can physically stick them on the table, jumping out 3", moving 7" or 8", and then advancing and charging on turn 2, you can basically cover the whole table unless they really hide in a corner away from all the objectives. You know Vipoid's going to appear to say its a travesty that Archons etc can't have Skyboards or Jetbikes, but I remain at a loss how giving characters an extra 6-8" move or something would suddenly unlock so much extra flavour in the faction. (Especially as they all got a bonus seat in the Transports you are almost certainly still taking).

I guess at its core, I agree that this codex feels very much "Dark Elves in Spaaace". The elfs are fast. The elfs are skillful. But that's about it. There's not much especially "Dark Eldar" about them.
So there isn't the mad-science body horror that probably should reflect hat your army (from the basic Kabalite up to the Talos) has likely been resurrected (or been freshly grown) in Haemonculi vats. I agree that power from pain feels very mechanistic - and has done these last 7 years. It *works*, and the old system was a win more mechanic which is bad. But it doesn't do a good job of reflecting that your guys are essentially vampires, eating/drinking/absorbing pain, fear, misery etc to survive - and that when high on these drained emotions you are impossibly strong, quick, etc, but without it you are rapidly reduced to an ancient shriveled (and repeatedly recycled) husk, slowly being drained by an ever hungry god.

But I feel all this would require a clearer idea of the lore and where it may be going - and that's something 9th seems to have abandoned. Its a game, play the game. Don't imagine how Dark Eldar society would *work* (or not work). And tbh, I don't really mind that, because you know all we would get is two pages on how Vect is good, Vect is great, here's him in a diorama on Jabba's Barge for about £150.

*EDIT*

I guess the argument - seeing PenitentJake above - is that some thought *has* gone into this (as with other factions), but its all in Crusade. Which is kind of good, and kind of bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/15 14:13:16


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I agree with near enough everything you've said.

Honestly, for all its tournament power, the new DE codex has largely turned me off the army because I just find it so dull.

For me, characters (and the ability to customise them) are one of the most crucial parts of the game. Yet it seems Dark Eldar lose options with every edition. We're currently down to just 3 generic characters, one of which (the mad scientist who is supposed to use a vast variety of esoteric weapons) has 0 wargear options. The Archon (each of which is supposed to have an entire armoury of rare and expensive weapons and artefacts) has all of 2 pistols and four varieties of Power Sword to choose from. Weirdly, the Succubus is the only HQ with any meaningful variety in terms of her base wargear.

To return to the Archon for a moment, he seems to be an HQ in search of a purpose. He's supposed to be a strategic mastermind and the overall commander, yet he has zero strategic or command abilities beyond the generic SM aura. His Master ability seems to imply that he's a melee fighter, yet his melee weapons are all such utter garbage that he's outclassed by a 45pt IG Lord Commissar. This also means that any variety in his warlord traits and artefacts is basically worthless because you're forced to spend them on making his melee ability actually worth a damn if you want him to do anything at all.

Also, when it comes to variety, splitting our army into three seems to have left us with far fewer fewer options compared to other factions. I won't compare DE to Space Marines (as that would probably be unfair), so let's instead compare them with Sisters of Battle.
- The SoB Canoness has 6 different 'Master' upgrades that allow her to focus on different strategies (shooting, melee, defence etc.). The Archon has just 1 Master upgrade and it can only ever affect melee (and then only once per game).
- The SoB Canoness can choose from up to 7 Warlord Traits (including the subfaction one), whilst the Archon (even with the bonus Master and subfaction ones) can pick from 5 at most.
- The SoB Canoness can choose from 12 artefacts, whilst the Archon has - at best - a mere 6 to pick from.
(This is on top of the fact that a Canoness has a vastly better wargear selection than the Archon - including an actually-good melee weapon and also a ranged weapon.)

There's also the fact that there are 6 Orders but only 4 Kabals (so the Archon also has a worse selection of subfactions, and even fewer artefacts and warlord traits when you consider the overall amount).

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Whether or not this was the intent, splitting DE into 3 seems to have resulted in its already anaemic characters also having drastically fewer options than those in other factions. If GW are desperate to go this route, I think DE really need more options - e.g. 3 generic warlord traits that any DE character can pick (so that they're not each starting with half the warlord traits available to other factions), more artefacts (generic or otherwise), and more Master abilities (again, generic or otherwise).

But even aside from this, there's also a lack of variety in terms of the function of DE characters. The Haemonculus is a melee fighter with a bit of support ability. The Archon is a melee fighter with a bit of support ability. The Succubus is a melee fighter with a bit of support ability. Even if we're not allowed true psykers, could we not at least have something that fulfils a similar role? Either in the form of some appropriate wargear abilities for the Archon or Hamonculus or (heaven forbid) an actual new HQ, perhaps some sort of Mandrake Lord? Then you've got niches like ranged (or even semi-ranged) HQs. It used to be that Archons and Haemonculi could both do this to some extent - the former with a Blaster and the latter with a Hexrifle. However, these options no longer exist and nothing has been added to replace them. This has left the Archon in a particularly awkward spot as he's meant to be the leader of what is a primarily ranged subfaction, yet has no access to any weapons with meaningful ranges.

I suppose I could also reiterate the complete lack of any Jetbikes, Wings or Skyboards in the entire HQ section of what is allegedly a fast army.


For me at least, this sort of thing makes a huge difference in my enjoyment of an army. I want to be able to personalise my HQs, rather than being stuck with Generic Archon #59371, armed with the same weapon and artefact as always because everything else is utter trash and his base wargear is about as effective as a blunt spoon.


Wyldhunt wrote:

* Power From Pain still doesn't feel right. They introduced it in 5th where it was clunky but viscerally satisfying and useful. They got rid of the clunkiness in 7th, but also took away the visceral satisfaction. Currently, it still doesn't "feel good," as a mechanic the way its original incarnation did, it's abstract enough to not really capture the fluff it's going for very well, and it feels bad to give it up if you want to ally with non-drukhari. Like, coven units kind of can't do their job very well without this rule.


I think the issue with the current rules is that (regardless of power) it ends up feeling less like your army is getting buffs and more like key abilities that your units should have started with but which have been arbitrarily denied to you for the first few turns. Especially when it includes stuff like 'charge after advancing', which used to just be a core rule for all non-Coven DE.

The main thing, though, is that it just doesn't feel thematically right. Especially since both 40k and AoS have other armies that track kills or even suffering, yet for some reason DE aren't allowed to do that even though it's one of their core themes.


Wyldhunt wrote:

* I really like the Poisoned Tongue kabal's fluff, but they continue to not have much to reflect their emphasis on cunning aside from a generic redeploy strat (that can only affect my kabal units.) Give these guys Labyrinthine Cunning or a chapter tactic that makes them feel clever instead of just leaning into literal poison because of the name.


Aside - it really bothers me that Poison Tongue's poison buff does absolutely nothing for weapons that are already Poison 2+. So you have this weird situation where, for example, Lhamaeans (court assassins that seem perfect for PT in terms of fluff) are actually better off in any other Kabal as they can't benefit from the PT bonus.


Tyel wrote:

But equally... yeah. I don't think DE characters should ignore the rules on auras inside vehicles.


But why do DE characters need to have auras at all?

Why can't they instead have non-aura rules that work inside transports?


Tyel wrote:

I agree Blade Artisans is needless busy work that adds nothing fun to the game. Its presumably done to encourage assault (which had been kind of bad the last 7ish years), but, while its sort of stepping Marine toes, but I'd probably just give everyone a guaranteed point of AP in assault from Turn 3 onwards and rebalance accordingly.


No, Blade Artists was introduced so that GW could pretend that DE had another army-wide rule and thus justify moving PfP to be their loyalty ability.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vipoid wrote:
No, Blade Artists was introduced so that GW could pretend that DE had another army-wide rule and thus justify moving PfP to be their loyalty ability.


That too.

I guess you could ditch the auras and reduce it down to a called ability (i.e. pick one unit, you get the buff, can select from inside a transport). Not sure its necesarilly desirable or really adds much though.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






GW has a fun habit of, any time theres significant risk of players just choosing to ignore whatever dumb mechanic theyre doing to enforce manufactured discontent this edition, tying well-known and well-loved features of various armies to that mechanic so if you want to advocate ignoring it, you're asking people to give up the things their units have always been able to do.

They did it in 7th (tying well-known and well-loved abilities to Formations)

they did it in 6th (shackling well-loved named characters to the new 'Lord of War' slot to try and shove in Knights)

They did it in 8th (making well-loved abilities into Stratagems)

and theyre doing it in 9th with the purity bonuses.

Nothing new, and it would be soooooo easy to just ditch blade artists for PFP, but, oh, wouldn't you just feel so power-gamey if you did that, you meanie cheater? After all, BA is such a weak ability....guess you'll have to play with purity bonuses after all.... (*insert the gif of the south park cable guy rubbing his nipples here*)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/15 19:19:48


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran



Dudley, UK

PenitentJake wrote:
Sorry to do this to you again Dakka, but for me, what makes the 9th ed Drukhari dex awesome is the Crusade rules for territories and Ascendant Lords.

It's crazy better than GW's half hearted "Gangs of Commorragh" minigame, and it's baked right into the dex.

For me, it more than makes up for any shortcomings in the dex.

I was also stoked about the favoured retinue rules- particularly the Haemoxcytes, which did not exist in prior dexes (while both Trueborn and Bloodbrides did). I would also disagree with OP's thoughts on Trueborn: I think it is excellent that their buff is based on shooting, and very appropriate.

Your mileage may vary.


I mean, you aren't wrong there either.

Definitely some points twiddling in the future, hopefully not *just* enough to remove the incentive to take whatever upgrades have made it through the last round of tweaks in favour of retaining nothing but barebones chassis, but...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 vipoid wrote:
I agree with near enough everything you've said.

Right back at you.


For me, characters (and the ability to customise them) are one of the most crucial parts of the game. Yet it seems Dark Eldar lose options with every edition. We're currently down to just 3 generic characters, one of which (the mad scientist who is supposed to use a vast variety of esoteric weapons) has 0 wargear options. The Archon (each of which is supposed to have an entire armoury of rare and expensive weapons and artefacts) has all of 2 pistols and four varieties of Power Sword to choose from. Weirdly, the Succubus is the only HQ with any meaningful variety in terms of her base wargear.

To return to the Archon for a moment, he seems to be an HQ in search of a purpose. He's supposed to be a strategic mastermind and the overall commander, yet he has zero strategic or command abilities beyond the generic SM aura. His Master ability seems to imply that he's a melee fighter, yet his melee weapons are all such utter garbage that he's outclassed by a 45pt IG Lord Commissar. This also means that any variety in his warlord traits and artefacts is basically worthless because you're forced to spend them on making his melee ability actually worth a damn if you want him to do anything at all.

This! Absolutely this. I started playing in 5th before the 5e codex dropped. That beautiful armory section was a big part of what made the drukhari appealing. You're playing an army of big egos with wads of cash to spend on unnecessarily creative weapons. You should be able to make each character in your army feel like the sadistic pirate equivalent of a supermodel showing off a new set of clothes. Instead, every time I build a list I ask myself, "Does this character take the good option or one of the bad but not really interesting options? "

The codex seems a bit cluttered with ways to give multiple characters access to (usually pretty interesting) warlord traits. I feel like they might have been better off giving us a list of special rules for our characters to pick from (similar to exarchs and harlequin characters) that each change how our limited HQ pool plays. So instead of a captain aura, let archons pick between something like...
* Buffing the BS of one kabal unit within line of sight of himself or his transport by 1 until the end of the Shooting phase.
* Fighting an extra time per the master buff.
* Ordering a kabal unit to fall back and shoot in the command phase.

Similarly, you could have the stabby, healy, and buffy haemonculus and the stabby, tanky, or agile (think: rising crescendo) succubus.


Also, when it comes to variety, splitting our army into three seems to have left us with far fewer fewer options compared to other factions.

Very true, and excellent breakdown. Mechanically acknowledging the division in factions was nice when they first did it, but it really feels like it's doing more harm than good now. When I was waiting for the new book to drop, I wasn't excited by the possibilities of how they'd represent the subfactions; I was concerned that they were going to do something stupid that shot the codex in the foot. And frankly, not being able to blur the lines of ability selection is more of a fluff inhibitor than facilitator. Older books felt more like a toolbox.


But even aside from this, there's also a lack of variety in terms of the function of DE characters. The Haemonculus is a melee fighter with a bit of support ability. The Archon is a melee fighter with a bit of support ability. The Succubus is a melee fighter with a bit of support ability. Even if we're not allowed true psykers, could we not at least have something that fulfils a similar role? Either in the form of some appropriate wargear abilities for the Archon or Hamonculus or (heaven forbid) an actual new HQ, perhaps some sort of Mandrake Lord? Then you've got niches like ranged (or even semi-ranged) HQs. It used to be that Archons and Haemonculi could both do this to some extent - the former with a Blaster and the latter with a Hexrifle. However, these options no longer exist and nothing has been added to replace them. This has left the Archon in a particularly awkward spot as he's meant to be the leader of what is a primarily ranged subfaction, yet has no access to any weapons with meaningful ranges.

I suppose I could also reiterate the complete lack of any Jetbikes, Wings or Skyboards in the entire HQ section of what is allegedly a fast army.

For me at least, this sort of thing makes a huge difference in my enjoyment of an army. I want to be able to personalise my HQs, rather than being stuck with Generic Archon #59371, armed with the same weapon and artefact as always because everything else is utter trash and his base wargear is about as effective as a blunt spoon.

Again, totally agree. There's a little extra sting to it given that our continued lack of options seems to be based on the no-model-no-rules thing combined with the disproportionate support for marines. Like, could we have skipped one or two primaris lieutenant releases and kept some haemonculus wargear options instead?


Wyldhunt wrote:

* Power From Pain still doesn't feel right. They introduced it in 5th where it was clunky but viscerally satisfying and useful. They got rid of the clunkiness in 7th, but also took away the visceral satisfaction. Currently, it still doesn't "feel good," as a mechanic the way its original incarnation did, it's abstract enough to not really capture the fluff it's going for very well, and it feels bad to give it up if you want to ally with non-drukhari. Like, coven units kind of can't do their job very well without this rule.


I think the issue with the current rules is that (regardless of power) it ends up feeling less like your army is getting buffs and more like key abilities that your units should have started with but which have been arbitrarily denied to you for the first few turns. Especially when it includes stuff like 'charge after advancing', which used to just be a core rule for all non-Coven DE.

The main thing, though, is that it just doesn't feel thematically right. Especially since both 40k and AoS have other armies that track kills or even suffering, yet for some reason DE aren't allowed to do that even though it's one of their core themes.

I get the impression that those AoS rules are considered a bit to loosey goosey for 40k. But yeah, while the individual buffs granted by PFP are nice, the mechanic as a whole just doesn't feel right. And it kind of seems like it's only in the shape it currently is because no one was willing to toss out the old and try something new. Heck, the ynnari Strength From Death rules are pretty weak next to PFP, but at least they would capture the fluff of the rule reasonably well.


Aside - it really bothers me that Poison Tongue's poison buff does absolutely nothing for weapons that are already Poison 2+. So you have this weird situation where, for example, Lhamaeans (court assassins that seem perfect for PT in terms of fluff) are actually better off in any other Kabal as they can't benefit from the PT bonus.

Absolutely. I spent all of 8th edition playing PT for fluff reasons and just accepting that they were basically a worse version of Flayed Skull EXCEPT that lhameans actually synergized well with the reroll 1s rule. Stuff like this makes me wonder how well the designers really knew drukhari when they were updating the codex.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Wyldhunt wrote:

This! Absolutely this. I started playing in 5th before the 5e codex dropped. That beautiful armory section was a big part of what made the drukhari appealing. You're playing an army of big egos with wads of cash to spend on unnecessarily creative weapons. You should be able to make each character in your army feel like the sadistic pirate equivalent of a supermodel showing off a new set of clothes. Instead, every time I build a list I ask myself, "Does this character take the good option or one of the bad but not really interesting options? "


I think this is one of the issues with relying so heavily on a small range of artefacts in lieu of other wargear - they can't and don't capture the vast range of smaller items that we used to have access to.

There's also an aspect that the old character statlines and wargear selections actually helped give the respective HQs different roles. The Archon, for example, could be built as a ranged character to accompany a Blaster-Trueborn unit. Alternatively, he could be built as a melee character to accompany Incubi (or even Grotesques if the mood took you). Hell, you could build him as both if you wanted. There were also a lot of ways to actually build him - you had simple, reliable options like the Agoniser and you had riskier but potentially devastating options like the Huskblade (and Soul Trap). Plus, you were free to either keep him cheap (you didn't even have to buy him a defensive item like the now-standard Shadowfield if you didn't want to) or load him out with near enough the entire armoury.

Then you had Haemonculi. The interesting thing here is that they had almost the exact same options as the Archon in terms of melee weapons, yet still encouraged a different role. You could take a Master Archon with a Huskblade and Soul Trap, but he only had WS5 I5 and 3 attacks, whilst an Archon had WS7 I7 and 4 attacks. So you still had the option (which is always nice) but they clearly weren't meant to be as good in combat as the Archon (or the Succubus, for that matter). Instead, they lent themselves far more to being support and utility units. You could take 3 non-Ancient Haemonculi in the same HQ slot, and each one would grant a Pain Token to whichever unit they were attached to (granting said unit FNP from turn 1). What's more, they had access to a number of items the Archon didn't - including Liquifier Guns and several single-use weapons. Thus, they lent themselves to being support units, who would often carry unusual, single-use weapons into battle and attempt to make use of them.

I think this sort of thing went a long way towards establishing clear roles and also made Haemonculi in particular an absolute blast to play. It was always great fun to have 2 or 3 Haemonculi, all wielding these weird weapons, and seeing how many I could get off and whether they'd be effective.


Wyldhunt wrote:

The codex seems a bit cluttered with ways to give multiple characters access to (usually pretty interesting) warlord traits. I feel like they might have been better off giving us a list of special rules for our characters to pick from (similar to exarchs and harlequin characters) that each change how our limited HQ pool plays. So instead of a captain aura, let archons pick between something like...
* Buffing the BS of one kabal unit within line of sight of himself or his transport by 1 until the end of the Shooting phase.
* Fighting an extra time per the master buff.
* Ordering a kabal unit to fall back and shoot in the command phase.

Similarly, you could have the stabby, healy, and buffy haemonculus and the stabby, tanky, or agile (think: rising crescendo) succubus.


Yes, I think something like that could have helped a lot. I really liked the idea for Harlequins and I remember being disappointed that nothing similar was in store for DE.

Same with Master upgrades having no options - just a single upgrade path for each character. Want your Master Archon to do anything besides melee? Tough.


Wyldhunt wrote:

Very true, and excellent breakdown. Mechanically acknowledging the division in factions was nice when they first did it, but it really feels like it's doing more harm than good now. When I was waiting for the new book to drop, I wasn't excited by the possibilities of how they'd represent the subfactions; I was concerned that they were going to do something stupid that shot the codex in the foot. And frankly, not being able to blur the lines of ability selection is more of a fluff inhibitor than facilitator. Older books felt more like a toolbox.


Completely agree. I think a big part of the problem is that DE has such a limited unit roster at the start of 8th (and GW clearly had no intention of changing that). So when you split it into 3, each subfaction ends up with basically no choices at all.

What's more, while other codices get useful and/or flavourful rules, most of ours seems dedicated to trying to solve army-building problems that should never have existed in the first place.


Wyldhunt wrote:

Again, totally agree. There's a little extra sting to it given that our continued lack of options seems to be based on the no-model-no-rules thing combined with the disproportionate support for marines. Like, could we have skipped one or two primaris lieutenant releases and kept some haemonculus wargear options instead?


You'd think so, wouldn't you?

Then again, I'm convinced that GW had initially planned to unify all the Eldar factions under Ynnari but abandoned the idea after the reception to the first AoS. However, having dropped (or at least postponed) that idea, they were then left with absolutely no clue as to what to do with the various Eldar factions instead. Hence why they've spent the last 3 years or so just treading water and updating a couple of pre-existing models to plastic.


Wyldhunt wrote:

I get the impression that those AoS rules are considered a bit to loosey goosey for 40k. But yeah, while the individual buffs granted by PFP are nice, the mechanic as a whole just doesn't feel right. And it kind of seems like it's only in the shape it currently is because no one was willing to toss out the old and try something new. Heck, the ynnari Strength From Death rules are pretty weak next to PFP, but at least they would capture the fluff of the rule reasonably well.


You might be right about AoS rules, though it would be a little weird given how much 40k's core rules have pilfered from AoS (the current psychic phase is almost identical to the AoS magic phase, we have the AoS WS and BS system, we have Mortal Wounds etc.).

In any case, I wonder if part of the issue with PfP is the lack of any interactivity? With rules like Miracle Dice, you have actual choices and decisions to make. With PfP, it's just a flat table that advances at the same speed regardless of anything happening on the table and which has no decisions or choices to be made.


Wyldhunt wrote:

Absolutely. I spent all of 8th edition playing PT for fluff reasons and just accepting that they were basically a worse version of Flayed Skull EXCEPT that lhameans actually synergized well with the reroll 1s rule.


Ah, I see you are also a man of culture.

As someone who did the same thing, Lhamaeans were one of my favourite things in Poison Tongue. They only had 2 attacks but next to an Archon they hit on 2s (rerolling 1s) and then wounded on 2s (rerolling 1s), and inflicted Mortal Wounds on a 4+. Three of them were pretty cheap and actually did really good work as part of my Archon suicide squad.

Now they're still stuck at 2 attacks but they only inflict Mortal Wounds on a 6+, and they've lost all synergy with Poison Tongue. Sigh.

Also, the other reason I liked Poison Tongue was the Soul Seeker. I loved that weapon. I took it every single game on my Warlord Archon. Yes, it was terribly underpowered and rarely ever did anything (and was in dire need of a 3rd shot or at least the ability to benefit from PT's reroll to wound) but I just loved the idea of the weapon so much. It was awesome to have a weapon that could snipe characters even through walls. However, someone on the GW design team (you know who you are) decided that this already weak weapon needed to be nerfed and so removed its ability to ignore line of sight. Why? Barely anyone even used this weapon (or even Poison Tongue, for that matter). Why, then, did even this small crumb of fun and flavour need to be stamped into the dirt? It can't have had anything to do with balance so it just ends up feeling like a petty and spiteful nerf to an already weak artefact.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





You might be right about AoS rules, though it would be a little weird given how much 40k's core rules have pilfered from AoS (the current psychic phase is almost identical to the AoS magic phase, we have the AoS WS and BS system, we have Mortal Wounds etc.).

In any case, I wonder if part of the issue with PfP is the lack of any interactivity? With rules like Miracle Dice, you have actual choices and decisions to make. With PfP, it's just a flat table that advances at the same speed regardless of anything happening on the table and which has no decisions or choices to be made.

Maybe. I think the secret sauce, for me, is tying the mechanic directly to models losing wounds/dying. In the current version, my opponent and I can play cagey and not land a single attack on turn 1, and my PFP benefits will improve all the same. I get that they're assuming that damage is being done and that the battlefield is just sort of filling up with increased amount of psychic pain miasma, but that idea isn't viscerally captured.

Now they're still stuck at 2 attacks but they only inflict Mortal Wounds on a 6+, and they've lost all synergy with Poison Tongue. Sigh.

Yep. :( And their current poison rule only kicks in if you leave the transport. Which is jarring from a fluff perspective and feels like the designers don't understand that I generally don't leave transports with my shooty units if I can avoid it.

Lhameans should probably either regain their old mortal wound output or just become full on characters that buff the poison weapons of units either near them or in the same transport as them. I could see that start that lets us use poison against vehicles require a nearby lhamean, for instance, and you could add a couple other "meta-venomous" stratagems that work similarly.

Also, the other reason I liked Poison Tongue was the Soul Seeker.

Yeah. I didn't use that relic every game, but it was always surprisingly satisfying when I did take it. Since the new codex came out, I've been surprised by how much less enjoyable it is to use. I think it's because the old version felt like it gave you a viable way to have a ranged archon that hid in the background and shot from his transport. The new version requires you shoot from relatively close and out in the open. And if I'm engaging in a relatively head-on fight like that, I may as well go djinn blade + hatred eternal and do more damage.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
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