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Another variation on a theme - Deathstar with objective campers - I should get a 75 point rebate on the Centurion Devs (assuming I did the 2022 points update math right) thus why the list is listed at 2075.

Snipped First List

I'd like to do something different than Cassius and Tiggy, but the Character Shenanigans get taken up by the Ancient and Apothecary. So taking a Libby, making them Chief Libby through company command, makes Tiggy's specials only 15 points. I'll pay that. Cassius is actually cheaper than a regular (even non-primaris like Cassius is) Chaplain with MoS Chapter Command. And he gets two Master Crafted, and a Special Rule. I thought about taking a Bladeguard Cap and LT, but that just doubles up on Guilliman. I had been running two squads of Assault intercessors in the theory they would tag along with the Deathstar and drop off on objectives after the Deathstar clears them. Then it occured to me to take a blob of 10 which may draw fire especialy from BLAST, while the Apothecary is still there. I can always Combat Squad them too. The Bladeguard Ancient is probably more placeholder than etched in stone. I'd take a long hard look at the new Primaris Ancient with a Powersword coming out. I'm not really sure about the Chapter Champion. It might be too much close combat in the deathstar by switching the Aggressors and Eradicators for Bladeguard and Centurion Devs. Dropping the champion for a Judiciar could be paid for by swapping another TLLC from the Cent Devs for a Grav Cannon, plus upgrade the Assault Intercessor sgt from a Power Sword for a Power Fist. - I could also drop the Bladeguard, go all Grav Cannon, and pair Aggressors with ML/Grav Cent Devs.

So I'm looking for alternatives for Cassius/Tiggy but don't expect to see any I like, and ideas for the Deathstar Pairings. Aggressor/Eradicators? Aggressor/Cents or Bladeguard/Cents? I've also thought of Aggressors/Bladeguard but I'm hesitant to get my anti-tank from a bunch of powerfists even with reroll misses. Any of those three pair durability, chaff dakka, and some decent anti-tank as well as close combat that would make most units think twice. I like layered offense/defense. Partner units that patch weaknesses, or irritate exploiting them - like Cassius's Inspired Retribution Aura.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: did some more looking - Cents are not CORE so the shenanigans I was doing with the Chapter Ancient doesn't work on them. But that did give me a chance to take another look at the troops choices.


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [84 PL, 6CP, 1,620pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ Stratagems +

Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ HQ +

Chaplain Cassius [5 PL, 95pts]: Litany of Hate

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 135pts]

+ Troops +

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 110pts]
. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Plasma pistol, Power fist

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 150pts]: Heavy bolt rifle, Heavy bolter
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 150pts]: Heavy bolt rifle, Heavy bolter
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 130pts]: Helix gauntlet
. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 225pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant
. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Bladeguard Ancient [6 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Ancient, Standard of Macragge Inviolate, Steadfast Example, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 180pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: Acquittal, Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

+ Heavy Support +

Eradicator Squad [14 PL, 225pts]: Melta rifle
. 4x Eradicator: 4x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [19 PL, 6CP, 380pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Roboute Guilliman [19 PL, 3CP, 380pts]: Nobility Made Manifest, Warlord

++ Total: [103 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
This has me ending up with 40 models (7x5 + 5x1 (Character) units).

I'm wondering about swapping the Assault Intercessors for another Infiltrator, but I worry about running into someone else with Infiltrate. Or outflank.

On the 5 objective 1 per Deployment Area I should be on two, with the 2x2x2 6 objective map I should be on three with the 2 Heavy Intercessors, and the Infiltrators. The Aggs, Bladeguard, Eradicators and characters can then go hit a third/fourth - potentially dragging the Assault Intercessors (and 2nd Heavy Intercessor if I only get one Deployment Zone objective) along to drop off to ObSec the Ob. Maps like Death and Zeal, Conversion, or Tide of Conviction are enticing, as is Abandoned Sanctuaries. I can run the deathstar back and forth supporting two objectives within charge range.

The Scouring will be pretty wild, no matter what list you build mostly. That would be a good one for the second Infiltrator

On the 5 Ob maps with one in the center no-mans-land there's also some potential for 15 Ob Sec Marines and five supporting characters.

I'd still like to do something different with Cassius, but that's likely to also getting rid of the Assault intercessor Sgt Upgrades to go Primaris Chaplain.

I am still thinking about Cent Devs on a backfield objective firebase. I'm just not sure.

As much as I love my Cent Devs, they are week to melee, lack CORE & if on a back objective (especially with the new missions that only let you gain CP a turn if you hold the one in you're deployment zone) makes them a very juicy target for deepstrike/surprise melee. If dead set on taking them I'd say walk them up with or nearby hugging cover of the Apothecary & leave something else on back objectives, they'll be 1 inch slower then everyone else but their goal is to chump/weaken the stuff you don't want near the Bladeguard deathball could even leave them in cover on a mid-table objective mid-walk (Downside is that is A LOT of PTS in one blob making it easy for an opponent to maneuver around you). On the plus side that's a lot of Overwatch fire they got especially for the Defensives Focus Strat, & can be covered by the 5++ psychic dome power.

But that's my opinion on them lovely chunky boys as I however built mine, read "glued", in Full-Bolter back in 8th so I'm more judgmental on the PTS investment since atm their 300PTS (Maybe going down to 255PTS after CA). Cheap Grav loadout does sound it might be their only viable use now for the PTS investment since that's atm 255PTS (Future 210PTS?), They are the equivalent wounds wise as 4 Heavy Intercessors so I guess keep that in mind.

Enigma117 wrote:
As much as I love my Cent Devs, they are week to melee, lack CORE & if on a back objective (especially with the new missions that only let you gain CP a turn if you hold the one in you're deployment zone) makes them a very juicy target for deepstrike/surprise melee. If dead set on taking them I'd say walk them up with or nearby hugging cover of the Apothecary & leave something else on back objectives, they'll be 1 inch slower then everyone else but their goal is to chump/weaken the stuff you don't want near the Bladeguard deathball could even leave them in cover on a mid-table objective mid-walk (Downside is that is A LOT of PTS in one blob making it easy for an opponent to maneuver around you). On the plus side that's a lot of Overwatch fire they got especially for the Defensives Focus Strat, & can be covered by the 5++ psychic dome power.

But that's my opinion on them lovely chunky boys as I however built mine, read "glued", in Full-Bolter back in 8th so I'm more judgmental on the PTS investment since atm their 300PTS (Maybe going down to 255PTS after CA). Cheap Grav loadout does sound it might be their only viable use now for the PTS investment since that's atm 255PTS (Future 210PTS?), They are the equivalent wounds wise as 4 Heavy Intercessors so I guess keep that in mind.

I was actually going Missile/LasCannon and a group of 5 and run them in the Deathstar ball. I have a hard time using a squad of Marines that isn't 5/10 in size. But the lack of CORE is a deal-breaker. Guilliman doesn't give them the good rerolls, the Ancient doesn't make them Objective Secured, most of my Chapter Command based shenanigans just stop working on them. I didn't mind the 5" move - the Aggressors and the Eradicators are also 5" move - so swapping Eradicators for Centurions didn't really matter much(only diff is the Eradicators have assault melta). If I absolutely need to make every shot count I can normal move, if not I can usually advance (with at least +1 to it making it 6" again) and still shoot the Aggresors/Eradicators The general idea of the Deathstar Ball is to (potentially) escort a 3rd/4th Troops Choice onto No-Man's or Opponent DZ objectives with an escort force boosted with Chapter Command Shenanigans too annoying to ignore, and too irritating to really want to go after. Most of the Ball is ObSec, Two units get healed, one unit gets Ressurected, they all get the good rerolls, a bonus to advance and charge, this latest interation also has two units (one must be Bladeguard) getting +1 to hit each Command phase, and the CORE units getting +1A. So (likely) the Aggressors get +1A and +1 to hit with their -1 to hit fists, the bladeguard get +1A and +1 to hit with their MC Power swords, Rarely the (stationary if I have their shots matter more than movement) Eradicators will get +1 to hit on double shooting their Melta.

All that is before whatever litanies, powers, and special rules I get from Cassius and Tiggy. I'd still like to replace at least Cassius - but you can't actually make a MOS (two Litanies per turn is what matters there - he's packed in that Deathstar ball tight, and has lots of targets for auras or pick a units) cheaper than Cassius. It's like his special rules and two relic-ish weapons cost negative points. I like Tiggy for two powers and being extra annoying making 1 unit -1 to hit so what he costs more than a Chapter Command Chief Libby is about as much as what Cassius costs less. It doesn't matter that they're named and can't get a WL Trait by stratagem (with Guilliman around as he must be WL, and the strat only works on non-named), because I already used up the two Bonus Trait Strats on the Ancient and Apothecary. I don't want a Cap/LT because they'd duplicate Grandpappy Smurf so HQ's are Chap/Lib/Other. I have no vehicles for a Techmarine. No scouts for Telion, no vehicles for Chronus. The rest of the list pretty much locks those two in. The tough choice I haven't made yet is powers for Tiggy. Librarius gives him more/better uses for the Deathstar ball, but Indomitus gives him CP generation and all the bonus CP I got from Grandpappy Smurf was used up pre-battle.

I do like the troops choices in this revamp. I usually go something like 2 and 2 Assault and (shooty, may or may not be Heavy) Intercessor - two Heavies with Heavy Bolter, one assault, and one Infiltrator feels lot more flexible and varied. I think the only list I'm really worried about is a skew list like Knights. Even if I could make the charge (and thus fight first) with an undamaged Deathstar, I'm not sure I could one-turn it. Ok I'm wrong. The Aggressor fists will do 14 and a half or so wounds on their lonesome before rerolls or Litanies vs T8, 3+. The Bladeguard will do another 12. Plus Melta shooting pre-combat, plus Grandpappy Smurf Combat. Of course that assumes I'm undamaged, and get the charge. Not exactly likely. The Bladeguard do shockingly better than expected. Its the first time I've really thought it out. I assumed the Aggresor fists would have to do the heavy lifting - so to speak - against the big vehicle models. But the Bladeguard on the Charge are basically two Grav Cannons each and 10 Grav Cannons will put a dent in a Knight. OK, they do about the same as the stationary but not +1 to hit Eradicators at half range would do. A skew list the other way - guant/boyz/etc hordes would probably be worse for me. While the Fists on the Aggressors can carry over on purpose for the Melta Eradicators, the reverse isn't true with the Eradicators for the Boltstorm + grenade launcher. TSons MW lists would also likely be an issue. I haven't seen enough Death Guard plague mechanics in action to have an idea of what to worry about there.

Breton wrote:
I was actually going Missile/LasCannon and a group of 5 and run them in the Deathstar ball. I have a hard time using a squad of Marines that isn't 5/10 in size. But the lack of CORE is a deal-breaker. Guilliman doesn't give them the good rerolls, the Ancient doesn't make them Objective Secured, most of my Chapter Command based shenanigans just stop working on them. I didn't mind the 5" move - the Aggressors and the Eradicators are also 5" move - so swapping Eradicators for Centurions didn't really matter much(only diff is the Eradicators have assault melta). If I absolutely need to make every shot count I can normal move, if not I can usually advance (with at least +1 to it making it 6" again) and still shoot the Aggresors/Eradicators The general idea of the Deathstar Ball is to (potentially) escort a 3rd/4th Troops Choice onto No-Man's or Opponent DZ objectives with an escort force boosted with Chapter Command Shenanigans too annoying to ignore, and too irritating to really want to go after. Most of the Ball is ObSec, Two units get healed, one unit gets Ressurected, they all get the good rerolls, a bonus to advance and charge, this latest interation also has two units (one must be Bladeguard) getting +1 to hit each Command phase, and the CORE units getting +1A. So (likely) the Aggressors get +1A and +1 to hit with their -1 to hit fists, the bladeguard get +1A and +1 to hit with their MC Power swords, Rarely the (stationary if I have their shots matter more than movement) Eradicators will get +1 to hit on double shooting their Melta.

All that is before whatever litanies, powers, and special rules I get from Cassius and Tiggy. I'd still like to replace at least Cassius - but you can't actually make a MOS (two Litanies per turn is what matters there - he's packed in that Deathstar ball tight, and has lots of targets for auras or pick a units) cheaper than Cassius. It's like his special rules and two relic-ish weapons cost negative points. I like Tiggy for two powers and being extra annoying making 1 unit -1 to hit so what he costs more than a Chapter Command Chief Libby is about as much as what Cassius costs less. It doesn't matter that they're named and can't get a WL Trait by stratagem (with Guilliman around as he must be WL, and the strat only works on non-named), because I already used up the two Bonus Trait Strats on the Ancient and Apothecary. I don't want a Cap/LT because they'd duplicate Grandpappy Smurf so HQ's are Chap/Lib/Other. I have no vehicles for a Techmarine. No scouts for Telion, no vehicles for Chronus. The rest of the list pretty much locks those two in. The tough choice I haven't made yet is powers for Tiggy. Librarius gives him more/better uses for the Deathstar ball, but Indomitus gives him CP generation and all the bonus CP I got from Grandpappy Smurf was used up pre-battle.

I do like the troops choices in this revamp. I usually go something like 2 and 2 Assault and (shooty, may or may not be Heavy) Intercessor - two Heavies with Heavy Bolter, one assault, and one Infiltrator feels lot more flexible and varied. I think the only list I'm really worried about is a skew list like Knights. Even if I could make the charge (and thus fight first) with an undamaged Deathstar, I'm not sure I could one-turn it. Ok I'm wrong. The Aggressor fists will do 14 and a half or so wounds on their lonesome before rerolls or Litanies vs T8, 3+. The Bladeguard will do another 12. Plus Melta shooting pre-combat, plus Grandpappy Smurf Combat. Of course that assumes I'm undamaged, and get the charge. Not exactly likely. The Bladeguard do shockingly better than expected. Its the first time I've really thought it out. I assumed the Aggresor fists would have to do the heavy lifting - so to speak - against the big vehicle models. But the Bladeguard on the Charge are basically two Grav Cannons each and 10 Grav Cannons will put a dent in a Knight. OK, they do about the same as the stationary but not +1 to hit Eradicators at half range would do. A skew list the other way - guant/boyz/etc hordes would probably be worse for me. While the Fists on the Aggressors can carry over on purpose for the Melta Eradicators, the reverse isn't true with the Eradicators for the Boltstorm + grenade launcher. TSons MW lists would also likely be an issue. I haven't seen enough Death Guard plague mechanics in action to have an idea of what to worry about there.

I have little 9th experience as my only main opponent is my best friend who has a Necron army (originally owned by his brother in-law who lives a few hrs away) & we at best play 1k PTS battles... which he has kicked my ass every time so far, lost all 7 1v1 games. Made a Battlescribe copy of what he usually fields after the 3rd loss so I could try to figure out a balanced/fair counter list, however most of my 6-7K PTS Astartes are firstborn from 5th edition (Have bought some Primaris stuff lately but only to fill out slot gaps so all my Troops are Tactical's aside from 1 Heavy Intercessor squad I made a month ago) so while I can give ideas they are not a "Skilled" idea that have massive playtesting behind them so read the following advice with that in mind:

That said Successor Chapter traits has a counter to Thousand Sons (5+ FNP vs mortals) but then you'd have to lose the Ultramarine Characters, which as I understand it is the reason anyone choices Ultramarine as their supplement. However from what I have seen threw the 4 Battle report Youtubers I watch is a far amount of their "Shenanigan's" comes from the Characters (Cabal points) & the Rubric Terminators (high durability & revivable). My only idea is long range mid AP death (Force Invil's) & focus the Rubric Termies down like you would any Necron unit (which he will try to do to you're Bladeguard in return) which I think the Primaris models can do reliably as they have -1 AP Bolters normally vs Tact squad's lack of that. Eliminators are the Primaris Character hunter squad but I doubt they will kill his buffers as he'll bring a BODYGUARD rule squad incase anyway. Just remember to be mindful of his powers ranges & watch out for that bonus move psyker power as it allows for some sneaky charges.

Deathguard battles I've seen lean into smashing you with Plaugeburst crawlers at long range while they have their beefy Termies walk up to smack stuff down & Pox walkers for free secondary points (Spread the Sickness). They do have something that can reduce toughness of enemy models in a short range by 1 which sounds annoying (can't remember if its a Psyker power or a special rule on a squad atm) so find out what gives that & murder hard before he uses it to flip a midfield objective on you. Then theirs the "Elephant in the room" know as Mortarian who can't lose more then 3 wounds a phase, has psyker powers that are nasty & wreaks face in melee my only ideas for that are weaken to under 3 wounds with range then charge a full HP & buffed Bladeguard into him. Also they have an 5+ FNP army wide so expect the need to "Dubble-Tap" a lot if something live where it shouldn't have.

Inceptors aren't to bad for anti-horde since they have CORE & can wait in deepstrike, doesn't have to be the Plasma version (Since that's best near re-rolls to save them from overcharge) & the same can be said for the Redemptor Dread only cause of how many dice it can roll for one model plus it has access to that Capt/Lt re-roll aura strat due to being a Dread only downside is it's size & degrading profile (also it can make for a "Distract-o-flex" due to it's scare factor, as my Necron friend told me after I used it last game). If you need cheap disposable anti-horde Dakka platforms there is Land Speeder Tornadoes, Assault cannon & Heavy bolter loadout, for 80PTS with Deepstrike but are T6 vehicles so less ideal but Tact Dev squads can take 4 heavy guns (Sgt can even give one squad member a +1 to hit in shooting at the cost of his shots) so there's that. Outriders are a interesting choice but if they get charged they lose that free +2 attacks per-model bonus, I have poor results with mine but that's cause they got charged 1st a few to many times (By Scarabs of all things, took them 3 turns to kill the little buggers). Honestly you're only saving grace with that loadout is gona be Terrain & playing "Wack-a-mole" with whatever survives to charge you so focus on squads that have high attacks (Like Berzerkers, Repentia or certain Ork squads) If you're fighting new-dex T'au I have no ideas since I have never fought them once (even back in 5th) & Imperial Guard rely on their tanks & artillery over mass troops.

As for Knights I've seen 2 3-man squads of Eradicators melt one in a turn so high AP long shots in mass volume at one target can work OR you can just do what my friend does to my ranged heavy's & tarpit it with something that can survive melee with its target (If they fall back they can't shoot but if they don't they can only shoot the melee guys) I'm unsure if Knights can do "Fall back & shoot" stuff so I suggest checking that. Honestly you're main problem here is if he kills all you're anti-vehicle in one go so positioning & reserves might be a good idea as if they can they WILL focus threats like Eradicators down hard. You'd might be better off playing the objective as they have a low model count (thou I believe they might have got Obsec in a Dataslate at one point) but no matter what the big boys are slow & can be outmaneuvered.

Note: Sorry if the mention of squads not in you're loadout was annoying, I was going threw the mental process for my army & ended up typing out what I find useful-ish, hope you can cobble something useful out of that mess of text

Enigma117 wrote:


That said Successor Chapter traits has a counter to Thousand Sons (5+ FNP vs mortals) but then you'd have to lose the Ultramarine Characters, which as I understand it is the reason anyone choices Ultramarine as their supplement.

Well it might be the reason new players do - I "chose" UM by being fourth of four people choosing SM back when UM were the red-headed step child of Marines. And I'm not in a hurry to rebuy and repaint all the stuff I already have. But I don't really want to be fully named - thus wondering what to do instead of Cassius as an HQ. Problem being he's cheaper than anything else that fits the needs.

However from what I have seen threw the 4 Battle report Youtubers I watch is a far amount of their "Shenanigan's" comes from the Characters (Cabal points) & the Rubric Terminators (high durability & revivable). My only idea is long range mid AP death (Force Invil's) & focus the Rubric Termies down like you would any Necron unit (which he will try to do to you're Bladeguard in return) which I think the Primaris models can do reliably as they have -1 AP Bolters normally vs Tact squad's lack of that. Eliminators are the Primaris Character hunter squad but I doubt they will kill his buffers as he'll bring a BODYGUARD rule squad incase anyway. Just remember to be mindful of his powers ranges & watch out for that bonus move psyker power as it allows for some sneaky charges.

I haven't done the math, but I think I can delete units faster than characters. Zombie Ressurection lists - MW grows new terminators, or my Chief Apothecary stuff - has a weakness to fully deleting units.

Deathguard battles I've seen lean into smashing you with Plaugeburst crawlers at long range while they have their beefy Termies walk up to smack stuff down & Pox walkers for free secondary points (Spread the Sickness). They do have something that can reduce toughness of enemy models in a short range by 1 which sounds annoying (can't remember if its a Psyker power or a special rule on a squad atm) so find out what gives that & murder hard before he uses it to flip a midfield objective on you. Then theirs the "Elephant in the room" know as Mortarian who can't lose more then 3 wounds a phase, has psyker powers that are nasty & wreaks face in melee my only ideas for that are weaken to under 3 wounds with range then charge a full HP & buffed Bladeguard into him. Also they have an 5+ FNP army wide so expect the need to "Dubble-Tap" a lot if something live where it shouldn't have.

Its probably one of their contagions. There are probably at least two Deathguard styles - one with vehicles and Terminus Est - tho Terminus Est just got a little less attractive. The Contagions are something I somewhat worry about. The Gloaming Bloat and The Droning are the Contangions I'd be most put out by. No rerolls, or half movement on the giant Deathstar Ball would be more than a little annoying.

Inceptors aren't to bad for anti-horde since they have CORE & can wait in deepstrike, doesn't have to be the Plasma version (Since that's best near re-rolls to save them from overcharge) & the same can be said for the Redemptor Dread only cause of how many dice it can roll for one model plus it has access to that Capt/Lt re-roll aura strat due to being a Dread only downside is it's size & degrading profile (also it can make for a "Distract-o-flex" due to it's scare factor, as my Necron friend told me after I used it last game). If you need cheap disposable anti-horde Dakka platforms there is Land Speeder Tornadoes, Assault cannon & Heavy bolter loadout, for 80PTS with Deepstrike but are T6 vehicles so less ideal but Tact Dev squads can take 4 heavy guns (Sgt can even give one squad member a +1 to hit in shooting at the cost of his shots) so there's that. Outriders are a interesting choice but if they get charged they lose that free +2 attacks per-model bonus, I have poor results with mine but that's cause they got charged 1st a few to many times

Have you tried giving the hammer an Anvil? This was a common principle in the Warhammer Fantasy game that used facings and rank/file rules. You used a "tarpit" unit - usually low cost, high defense, low offense - to lock the unit you want to charge into place, then flank charge with your hammer (high offense) So partner up the Outriders with something -a couple ATV's, a Dread, an Assault Squad or Deep Striking Reivers, Bladeguard or more likely TH/SS Terminators - Put the tarpit in front. If your guys make the charge great, if not they get charged. You loop around and counter charge with your outriders. The ATV's(speed), TH/SS Terminators or Dread would have the highest cost but the best synergy. If you end up with something big and tough Dread Fists or TH will make short work of it, if you get chaff, the counter charge is what you need. When I make lists, I look for partner/combo support in layers. Look at my Deathstar Ball. Each unit has a primary job and can sort of mostly do someone else's primary job. I'd probably try running them with a pair of MM ATV's. Their "true" purpose would then be disguised. You can melt stuff until they're charged, if you run into a big chaff unit - move in close to use the assault bolt rifles, let them get charged like you messed up their positioning, then ginsu that unit with the outriders on the counter charge.

Honestly you're only saving grace with that loadout is gona be Terrain & playing "Wack-a-mole" with whatever survives to charge you so focus on squads that have high attacks (Like Berzerkers, Repentia or certain Ork squads) If you're fighting new-dex T'au I have no ideas since I have never fought them once (even back in 5th) & Imperial Guard rely on their tanks & artillery over mass troops.

As for Knights I've seen 2 3-man squads of Eradicators melt one in a turn so high AP long shots in mass volume at one target can work OR you can just do what my friend does to my ranged heavy's & tarpit it with something that can survive melee with its target (If they fall back they can't shoot but if they don't they can only shoot the melee guys) I'm unsure if Knights can do "Fall back & shoot" stuff so I suggest checking that. Honestly you're main problem here is if he kills all you're anti-vehicle in one go so positioning & reserves might be a good idea as if they can they WILL focus threats like Eradicators down hard. You'd might be better off playing the objective as they have a low model count (thou I believe they might have got Obsec in a Dataslate at one point) but no matter what the big boys are slow & can be outmaneuvered.

Note: Sorry if the mention of squads not in you're loadout was annoying, I was going threw the mental process for my army & ended up typing out what I find useful-ish, hope you can cobble something useful out of that mess of text

Not at all, taking away Cassius (one of my cheapest HQ's) to replace with an HQ (and potentially something it works with) would mean swapping out a squad too. Plus the Outrider/ATV thing was a useful discussion.

Fair, left my terrain with my friend a month ago so he could fight his son's Grey Knights (think they got 2 games in so far, he dislikes fighting them cause of all the Psyker stuff) so best I can do is theorize a list. My problem is playing 1k PTS which can end up imbalanced easy (or so I hear) his is just so balanced that if I build something to counter the melee half (which is hard since he can bring 5 Lychguard, 3 scarubs, 3 Wraths & a Voidscythe Overlord for around 500PTS which he used to smash my front line & the Redeptor Dread last game plus tie up my Outriders) I die to the ranged stuff (Annihilation Barges & warrior/Immortals supported by a Command Barge plus the Dakka boosting strats to just force mass saves). Even tried focusing the Lychguard down one game & he just picked me apart as I did (Hurts when you try to deepstrike reg termies in cover to try gunning down troops he likes buffing/Strat'ing only to watch them melt on his turn)

Reason we play 1k PTS is not enough terrain for 2K, time as we can be slow as F at it, different work/off times (Plus he's a dad)... we also arn't using VP for wining but the Open War packs from 8th (if/when we go to 2K I plan to add 9ths VP system as I feel that's a good army size for it)

sub-note: sorry this reply dissolved to my problem when you asked for advice, I wanted to try helping someone else but my inexperience shows

Enigma117 wrote:
Fair, left my terrain with my friend a month ago so he could fight his son's Grey Knights (think they got 2 games in so far, he dislikes fighting them cause of all the Psyker stuff) so best I can do is theorize a list. My problem is playing 1k PTS which can end up imbalanced easy (or so I hear) his is just so balanced that if I build something to counter the melee half (which is hard since he can bring 5 Lychguard, 3 scarubs, 3 Wraths & a Voidscythe Overlord for around 500PTS which he used to smash my front line & the Redeptor Dread last game plus tie up my Outriders) I die to the ranged stuff (Annihilation Barges & warrior/Immortals supported by a Command Barge plus the Dakka boosting strats to just force mass saves). Even tried focusing the Lychguard down one game & he just picked me apart as I did (Hurts when you try to deepstrike reg termies in cover to try gunning down troops he likes buffing/Strat'ing only to watch them melt on his turn)

Reason we play 1k PTS is not enough terrain for 2K, time as we can be slow as F at it, different work/off times (Plus he's a dad)... we also arn't using VP for wining but the Open War packs from 8th (if/when we go to 2K I plan to add 9ths VP system as I feel that's a good army size for it)

sub-note: sorry this reply dissolved to my problem when you asked for advice, I wanted to try helping someone else but my inexperience shows

I get where you're coming from: I just picked up two of the Sector Fronteris expansions, and a Warzone Charadon to make myself a 6x4-ish table. The lack of scenery may also be contributing to your results - mentioning how you die to shooting is a big tip, looking at what you mentioned for his list too - as for switching from my question to your problem, I wasn't really expecting an answer at all let alone one I'd like, the parts I want to keep pretty much lock me into Cassius. As for your problem - You didn't say what you have or what chapter you play so I gave it a go while staying fairly generic and old school + Indomitus box (You mentioned outriders so I made a guess).


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [50 PL, 3CP, 1,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Primaris Captain [5 PL, 105pts]
. Heavy bolt pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Relic shield: Master-crafted power sword, Relic Shield

Primaris Lieutenant [5 PL, 90pts]
. Neo-volkite pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Storm Shield: Neo-volkite pistol

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

+ Elites +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 2x Bladeguard Veteran: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Master-crafted power sword, 2x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Invader ATV Squad [4 PL, 80pts]
. Invader ATV: Onslaught Gatling Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Impulsor [7 PL, 125pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Shield Dome

++ Total: [50 PL, 3CP, 1,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The Captain and Lieutenant came from the Indomitus Box, they'll pair well with the Bladeguard Vets who also came from Indomitus. Stick them inside the Impulsor to get to the fights faster. Plus the Shield Dome Impulsor may hopefully pull attention from your Redemptor.

3 Tac Squads with Grav Cannons and Powerswords should chew up Warriors and such and work against vehicles at least a little, then have some CC punch if they do get charged. The Invader ATV should make for a decent annoyance factor and put a hurt on the swarms and such.

There are VP missions designed for Incursion (1,000 point) battles. The ones in the new Chapter Approved look like they'd be quite a bit of fun plus you then have to build an army with an eye towards primary and secondary objectives. A lot of the I-Killed-All-Your-Stuff armies aren't very good at playing the mission. Take my list above. It's not built to kill all your stuff. I used 2 CP and a only 2 per army choice to give some units ObSec as a shenanigan.

I'll list what I have but I will state I have the terrain set that came with an bigger version of this GW box set (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Getting-Started-Battlezone-2020) that came with double the terrain amount & a 2nd foldable board along with a few extra terrain bits my room-mate made. We try to use all of it save for a hand few for every 1k PTS game, I also fight my room-mate who uses stuff from my army.

I have the 8th edition card deck for Ultramarine so I usually use that Chapter, plan to get codex for 9th when released along with the Imperial Fist codex. Army doesn't have a set color theme anymore (use to but I wanted special models or specific squads to be colored different, some are representations of a family member or friend painted in their fav colors)

Also EVERY firstborn Sgt. model can be swapped around as I colored their base trim different then the squads to ID them from a glance (I make clear before game who's with what squad & keep it written down to avoid confusion when melees happen involving 2 squads) non-bike firstborn HQ's also have their own base trim color to identify them as a HQ model.

***Warning A LOT of text ahead***

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [391 PL, 7,684pts] ++


**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines Successor

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 130pts]: Jump Pack, Relic blade, Storm shield

Captain [5 PL, 85pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 120pts]: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

Captain with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle [6 PL, 105pts]

Chaplain [5 PL, 80pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, Boltgun, Litany of Hate

Chaplain in Terminator Armour [7 PL, 125pts]: Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Combi-melta

Librarian [6 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Jump Pack

Librarian in Phobos Armour [6 PL, 125pts]: Bolt Pistol, Force Sword

Lieutenant [4 PL, 85pts]: Lightning Claw, Power fist

Lieutenant [4 PL, 75pts]: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword

Primaris Lieutenant [4 PL, 75pts]: Bolt pistol, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, 100pts]: Chapter Command: Master of the Forge

Techmarine [4 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Omnissian power axe, Servo-arm

+ Troops +

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 150pts]: Hellstorm bolt rifle, Hellstorm heavy bolter
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 205pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 205pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Lightning Claw
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 205pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 195pts]
. 8x Space Marine: 8x Bolt pistol, 8x Boltgun, 8x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 115pts]
. 4x Space Marine: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Thunder hammer

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 110pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [5 PL, 105pts]
. 2x Bladeguard Veteran: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Master-crafted power sword, 2x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol

Company Ancient [4 PL, 75pts]: Bolt pistol

Company Champion [4 PL, 70pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Champion

Company Veterans [8 PL, 139pts]
. Company Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield
. Company Veteran Sergeant: Power fist, Power sword

Company Veterans [8 PL, 160pts]
. Company Veteran: Heavy bolter, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Combi-melta, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Company Veteran Sergeant: Combi-melta, Storm shield

Company Veterans [8 PL, 102pts] (Extra Sgt & Vet models)
. Company Veteran: Combi-melta, Storm shield
. Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Company Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 195pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (Can swap to Plasma Cannon), Icarus Rocket Pod (Removable in needed), Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Scout Squad [4 PL, 70pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Scout w/Shotgun: 4x Astartes shotgun, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

Sternguard Veteran Squad [12 PL, 125pts]
. Sternguard Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Sternguard Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Sternguard Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Sternguard Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Sternguard Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Sternguard Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Special issue boltgun

Terminator Squad [18 PL, 420pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant
. 4x Terminator w/ Chainfist: 4x Chainfist, 4x Storm bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Chainfist
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Chainfist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher
. 3x Terminator w/ Power fist: 3x Power fist, 3x Storm bolter

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 343pts]: Jump Pack
. Vanguard Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield
. Vanguard Veteran Sergeant: Relic blade, Storm shield

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 155pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 145pts]: Multi-melta (Can swap to Assault Cannon)
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Heavy Flamer

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [6 PL, 125pts]: Jump Pack
. 2x Space Marine: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combat shield, Eviscerator
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

Attack Bike Squad [4 PL, 120pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta

Inceptor Squad [7 PL, 120pts]: Assault bolter x2, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

Land Speeder Tornadoes [8 PL, 160pts]
. Land Speeder Tornado: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter
. Land Speeder Tornado: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter

Land Speeder Typhoons [6 PL, 120pts]
. Land Speeder Typhoon: Multi-melta, Typhoon Launcher

Outrider Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Outrider Sgt
. 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle

Scout Bike Squad [5 PL, 100pts]
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Astartes grenade launcher, Combi-plasma
. 2x Scout Biker w/Grenade Launcher: 2x Astartes grenade launcher, 2x Astartes shotgun, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Combat knife, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

+ Heavy Support +

Centurion Devastator Squad [14 PL, 255pts]
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters
. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 150pts]
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 175pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

Eliminator Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Las Fusil
. Eliminator Sergeant: Las Fusil
. 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

Eliminator Squad [5 PL, 90pts]: Las Fusil
. Eliminator Sergeant: Las Fusil
. 2x Eliminators: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Camo cloak, 2x Frag & Krak grenades

^ Both Eliminator squads have the Bolt Snipers on their backs as well incase different loadout needed, I swap whole squad over when I do)

Land Raider [15 PL, 265pts]

Predator Annihilator [8 PL, 160pts]: Two Heavy Bolters

Predator Annihilator [8 PL, 170pts]: Two Lascannons

Thunderfire Cannon [6 PL, 120pts]

Whirlwind [7 PL, 135pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter (Not set, never glued gun in)

Razorback [6 PL, 125pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Razorback [6 PL, 125pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Storm bolter

+ Flyer +

Stormhawk Interceptor [10 PL, 185pts]: Any loadout, never glued guns in place yet they somehow stay when added


Created with BattleScribe

Sorry if that's WAY more info then you would have wanted, I can answer any questions involving my army (Including names I might have gave Characters, some are un-named). Also have a another box of Bladeguard on order (One will become the that Primaris Indomius LT.)

Edit: Forgot my only Flyer

Tried making my first list all first born - I don't hate it - the anti tank coming from aircraft is interesting, the Terminators and Dreads also look like fun, but I don't like what it did to the troops. I miss having four choices and I miss having 40-50 models But being able to Deep strike the two HQ and two Terminator units also has a nice twist appeal to it.


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [81 PL, 7CP, 1,615pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ +

Chaplain in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Rites of War, Storm bolter, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Librarian in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: Adept of the Codex, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Force stave, Storm bolter, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 100pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 100pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 100pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon

+ Elites +

Terminator Assault Squad [9 PL, 215pts]
. Assault Terminator Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. 4x Assault Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 200pts]
. Terminator Sergeant
. 2x Terminator w/ Chainfist: 2x Chainfist, 2x Storm bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
. Terminator w/ Power fist

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 135pts]: Assault cannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 140pts]: Multi-melta
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter

+ Flyer +

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 185pts]: Two Lascannons

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 185pts]: Two Lascannons

++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [19 PL, 6CP, 380pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Ultramarines

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Roboute Guilliman [19 PL, 3CP, 380pts]: Nobility Made Manifest, Warlord

++ Total: [100 PL, 13CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The fact that if needed you can hide or reserve the Aircraft probably helps to ensure they can fire at something at lest once (Something I learned with my Stormhawk, which I now realize wasn't in that list, I'll edit it in after posting this). Plus their internal -1 to hit unless in hover mode, which if arriving from reserve they don't have to start in until you wanna move them next turn.

But yah pure Firstborn is like playing with a handicap that only a experienced player can counter act with skill & proper list building (Something I lack), They do have some insane units thou (Jump Van Vets being one of them).