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I know this is stupid, but I am able to include units that are just Adeptus Ministorum in a Adepta Sororitas army right? Specifically the ones from the Blackstone Fortress. I’m asking simply because the app doesn’t allow you to add them into their detachments. Not sure if this is just something they overlooked or there’s a rule I’m missing that would prohibit it.

Codex pg 57 "Detachments":

An Adepta Sororitas Detachment is one that only includes models with the Adepta Sororitas keyword (excluding models with the Cult Imperialis, Agent of the Imperium or Unaligned keywords).

So the Adeptus Ministorum keyword isn't enough by itself to include in an Adepta Sororitas army, even though they also have Adeptus Ministorum keywords themselves. They need Cult Imperials. Neither of the blackstone fortress guys have it.

Damn, okay thank you

Adeptus Ministorum units needs to be included in the specific list of exceptions before you can include them in your army. Blackstone Fortress units like Pious Vorne are sadly not in that list

Please note that both models can be included in the the detachment, just not as the named characters.

Thaddeus the Pious is the default equipment load out for the Missionary.

Pious Vorne is the default equipment load out for the Preacher.

You can can also include them in an adeptus ministorum Detachment just not an adeptus sororitas detatchment. So you lose the associated detatchment benefits

This might belong in the overall Sisters thread, so I apologize in advance, but honestly, while the Decree Passive rule is fluffy and cool of course, it is a bit upsetting that you have to include an Adeptus Ministorum detachment separately from an Adepta Sororitas one.The Canoness/Missionary limit is completely fine, I am just talking about the "have to take as many Adepta Sororitas characters as Adeptus Ministorum/Cult Imperialis, etc. ones" part.

Let's say, narratively speaking (but still using a Battle Forged army), I wanted to simply play with Adeptus Ministorum units, to represent an auxillary force rallied by a Missionary or something in order to beat back a cult or whatever on a Shrine World. I would have to creat a separate detachment correct? If I just wanted to include a Missionary, Preacher, DCA, Crusaders, Arco Flagellants, and Penitent Engines/Mortifiers (technically just Penitent Engines honestly) I would be unable to put them in an Adepta Sororitas detachment because I would then have to include at least one Adepta Sororitas character because of the Decree Passive rule.

So, while in theory this is a narrative game, I technically cannot bring a true "Battle-Forged" detachment like a Vanguard or something of purely Adeptus Ministorum units to anything resembling matched play right?

I just feel like it really limits the forces that are canonically made up of Priests/Preachers/Missionaries and their auxillary forces/retinues. Yes they usually go to war with the Orders Militant, but, at a small/local level, sometimes it is just a Priest with his personal retinue and some additional support rooting out a corrupt planetary governor (or heretical cardinal/other priest, or similar Eccelsiarchal leader).

While I understand in Open and Narrative play you can do pretty much anything, if I was trying to build a Ministorum force using primarily matched play rules but with a narrative spin, it just feels limiting.

If your playing a narrative game you could just not field a battleforged army

 alextroy wrote:
Please note that both models can be included in the the detachment, just not as the named characters.

Thaddeus the Pious is the default equipment load out for the Missionary.

Pious Vorne is the default equipment load out for the Preacher.

Hadn’t thought of this. Honestly Pious Vorne is a much better looking model then the preacher so I might do that.

GFdoubles wrote:
This might belong in the overall Sisters thread, so I apologize in advance, but honestly, while the Decree Passive rule is fluffy and cool of course, it is a bit upsetting that you have to include an Adeptus Ministorum detachment separately from an Adepta Sororitas one.The Canoness/Missionary limit is completely fine, I am just talking about the "have to take as many Adepta Sororitas characters as Adeptus Ministorum/Cult Imperialis, etc. ones" part.

Let's say, narratively speaking (but still using a Battle Forged army), I wanted to simply play with Adeptus Ministorum units, to represent an auxillary force rallied by a Missionary or something in order to beat back a cult or whatever on a Shrine World. I would have to creat a separate detachment correct? If I just wanted to include a Missionary, Preacher, DCA, Crusaders, Arco Flagellants, and Penitent Engines/Mortifiers (technically just Penitent Engines honestly) I would be unable to put them in an Adepta Sororitas detachment because I would then have to include at least one Adepta Sororitas character because of the Decree Passive rule.

I'm confused. Are you trying to build a completely legal Adeptus Ministorum detachment or an Adepta Sororitas detachment without any Adepta Sororitas?

I ask this because you can legally build a detachment filled with Missionary, Preacher, DCA, Crusaders, Arco Flagellants, and Penitent Engines. It just won't be an Adepta Sororitas detachment and won't have the Adepta Sororitas detachment abilities. It will still be a legal Battle-Forged detachment.

However, the rules for an Adepta Sororitas detachment allow you to bring quite a few non-Sororitas units with little difficultly. You can literal bring a Missionary, a Preacher, a unit each of Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, and Arco-Flagellants using just 1 HQ slot as all the others are slot free for the first unit thanks to their rules.

 alextroy wrote:
I'm confused. Are you trying to build a completely legal Adeptus Ministorum detachment or an Adepta Sororitas detachment without any Adepta Sororitas?

I ask this because you can legally build a detachment filled with Missionary, Preacher, DCA, Crusaders, Arco Flagellants, and Penitent Engines. It just won't be an Adepta Sororitas detachment and won't have the Adepta Sororitas detachment abilities. It will still be a legal Battle-Forged detachment.

However, the rules for an Adepta Sororitas detachment allow you to bring quite a few non-Sororitas units with little difficultly. You can literal bring a Missionary, a Preacher, a unit each of Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, and Arco-Flagellants using just 1 HQ slot as all the others are slot free for the first unit thanks to their rules.

What I got was that he wants to do more Ministorum than Sisters. Imagine a world out in the boonies, that maybe only has a couple squads of sisters, but a lot of regular people who get worked up into a lather over a rusty fork used by the first general of the Astra Militarum to die in combat during a year that ends in 7 and a month that ends in y. They might have more Flagellants and Priests than they would Sisters because as far as relics go that one.. isn't very good.

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I'm confused. Are you trying to build a completely legal Adeptus Ministorum detachment or an Adepta Sororitas detachment without any Adepta Sororitas?

I ask this because you can legally build a detachment filled with Missionary, Preacher, DCA, Crusaders, Arco Flagellants, and Penitent Engines. It just won't be an Adepta Sororitas detachment and won't have the Adepta Sororitas detachment abilities. It will still be a legal Battle-Forged detachment.

However, the rules for an Adepta Sororitas detachment allow you to bring quite a few non-Sororitas units with little difficultly. You can literal bring a Missionary, a Preacher, a unit each of Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, and Arco-Flagellants using just 1 HQ slot as all the others are slot free for the first unit thanks to their rules.

What I got was that he wants to do more Ministorum than Sisters. Imagine a world out in the boonies, that maybe only has a couple squads of sisters, but a lot of regular people who get worked up into a lather over a rusty fork used by the first general of the Astra Militarum to die in combat during a year that ends in 7 and a month that ends in y. They might have more Flagellants and Priests than they would Sisters because as far as relics go that one.. isn't very good.

You both are on the right track in different ways here. To start, I personally prefer the Adepta Sororitas element of the army, and so I probably would never actually build a whole Adeptus Ministorum force. I do have some of those units painted up, but at most I usually just either bring some Penitent Engines/Mortifiers and either a Missionary or a Preacher. But let me be clear, I am looking for a way to legally bring a Missionary leading his own retinue of auxillary Ministorum forces along with a squad of Battle SIsters (or other Adepta Sororitas unit) that he has recruited, which I believe is imposible with Decree Passive right now, at least in terms of gaining Acts of Faith from what I understand. Of course, the idea is for this to be a force without any Adepta Sororitas characters, and only a Missionary/Preacher, or both.

I am aware that I can legally build a Battle-Forged army as an "Adeptus Ministorum" detachment without using any Adepta Sororitas detachment rules. Decree Passive just prevents me from bringing Battle Sisters, Retributors, Seraphim, Zephyrim, Sacresants, Dominions, and the other Adepta Sororitas units led by a Missionary unless I bring at least one Adepta Sororitas character. Now that Crusaders no longer have Acts of Faith, the Adepta Sororitas detachment abilities don't even help any of the Adeptus Ministorum units anyway.

I think, to get right down to it, what I am looking for is either to "allow" a Missionary to actually lead a squad of Battle Sisters (or similar Adepta Sororitas unit) along with their retinue OR for Adeptus Ministorum units NOT in an Adepta Sororitas detachment to get some kind of ability, rule, or just something special other than restrictions. Not to say I would ever actually do it, but it's a fluffy way to build a Battle-Forged army that is just disallowed by Decree Passive.

If I am completely mistaken on any of this please let me know! I know the "Adeptus Ministorum gaining something if all of your units are Ministorum" wish is a pipedream lol. I guess I just want both archetypes in the faction to be fully supported, like if we go back to the Index the army itself was the Adeptus Ministorum, and that archetype should still be there and completely viable since the Orders Militant are the military arm of the Adeptus Ministorum, despite the "no men under arms" clause.

I love bringing Sisters, and will always love Sisters, but I just think the option to bring a somewhat viable Battle-Forged Ministorum force with a few Sisters included led by a Missionary (still would like Confessors back too please) should be there.

To go back to that second part of the first question, I was originally looking to build an Adepta Sororitas Detachment with at most a unit of Sisters led by a Missionary (so not without any Adepta Sororitas, but for the Sisters to be treated as more of an auxillary force to the Ministorum units, rather than vice versa as normal). However, I would also be fine with a Battle-Forged Adeptus Ministorum force that actually gained some interesting rules if it is just them.

GFdoubles wrote:


You both are on the right track in different ways here. To start, I personally prefer the Adepta Sororitas element of the army, and so I probably would never actually build a whole Adeptus Ministorum force. I do have some of those units painted up, but at most I usually just either bring some Penitent Engines/Mortifiers and either a Missionary or a Preacher. But let me be clear, I am looking for a way to legally bring a Missionary leading his own retinue of auxillary Ministorum forces along with a squad of Battle SIsters (or other Adepta Sororitas unit) that he has recruited, which I believe is imposible with Decree Passive right now, at least in terms of gaining Acts of Faith from what I understand. Of course, the idea is for this to be a force without any Adepta Sororitas characters, and only a Missionary/Preacher, or both.

Check out the Hospitallers, Dogmatas, Imagifiers, Repentia Superiors, etc. (assuming my source material here is accurate)

You can include a maximum of one CANONESS model and one MISSIONARY model in this Detachment. You cannot include more CULT IMPERIALIS PRIEST units in this Detachment than there are ADEPTA SORORITAS CHARACTER units

As long as you have more or equal of those Elite and/or HQ Non-Canoness Support CHARACTERS from Sisters than you do MISSIONARY + PREACHER's you're good to go. So its possible but probably not very good based on how they're keywording what I looked at and really riding the fluffy fence.

I am aware that I can legally build a Battle-Forged army as an "Adeptus Ministorum" detachment without using any Adepta Sororitas detachment rules. Decree Passive just prevents me from bringing Battle Sisters, Retributors, Seraphim, Zephyrim, Sacresants, Dominions, and the other Adepta Sororitas units led by a Missionary unless I bring at least one Adepta Sororitas character. Now that Crusaders no longer have Acts of Faith, the Adepta Sororitas detachment abilities don't even help any of the Adeptus Ministorum units anyway.

I think, to get right down to it, what I am looking for is either to "allow" a Missionary to actually lead a squad of Battle Sisters (or similar Adepta Sororitas unit) along with their retinue OR for Adeptus Ministorum units NOT in an Adepta Sororitas detachment to get some kind of ability, rule, or just something special other than restrictions. Not to say I would ever actually do it, but it's a fluffy way to build a Battle-Forged army that is just disallowed by Decree Passive.

If I am completely mistaken on any of this please let me know! I know the "Adeptus Ministorum gaining something if all of your units are Ministorum" wish is a pipedream lol. I guess I just want both archetypes in the faction to be fully supported, like if we go back to the Index the army itself was the Adeptus Ministorum, and that archetype should still be there and completely viable since the Orders Militant are the military arm of the Adeptus Ministorum, despite the "no men under arms" clause.

I love bringing Sisters, and will always love Sisters, but I just think the option to bring a somewhat viable Battle-Forged Ministorum force with a few Sisters included led by a Missionary (still would like Confessors back too please) should be there.

To go back to that second part of the first question, I was originally looking to build an Adepta Sororitas Detachment with at most a unit of Sisters led by a Missionary (so not without any Adepta Sororitas, but for the Sisters to be treated as more of an auxillary force to the Ministorum units, rather than vice versa as normal). However, I would also be fine with a Battle-Forged Adeptus Ministorum force that actually gained some interesting rules if it is just them.

The rule as near as I can tell only cares about CHARACTERs - not units. I think you're making the rule stricter than it really is. So a Missionary, No Priests, A Hospitaller, Some Sisters, and a bunch of Minisotorum NON-Characters would fit the bill.

To echo Breton, you can definitely build an Adepta Sorortas detachment with a Missionary as the leader/Warlord. You just need to shoehorn in an Adepta Sororitas Character or two to balance out your Missionary and Priests. Then you are free to go as crazy with other Adepta Sororitas units you as like.

So a legal Patrol could look like this:

HQ
Missionary

Troops
Battle Sister Squad

Elites
Preacher (no slot taken)
Arco-Flaggants (no slot taken)
Death Cult Assassins (no slot taken)
Crusaders (no slot taken)
Hospitaler
Dialogous

Heavy Support
Penitent Engines
Penitent Engines

Dedicated Transports
Sororitas Rhino
Immolator

 alextroy wrote:
To echo Breton, you can definitely build an Adepta Sorortas detachment with a Missionary as the leader/Warlord. You just need to shoehorn in an Adepta Sororitas Character or two to balance out your Missionary and Priests. Then you are free to go as crazy with other Adepta Sororitas units you as like.

So a legal Patrol could look like this:

HQ
Missionary

Troops
Battle Sister Squad

Elites
Preacher (no slot taken)
Arco-Flaggants (no slot taken)
Death Cult Assassins (no slot taken)
Crusaders (no slot taken)
Hospitaler
Dialogous

Heavy Support
Penitent Engines
Penitent Engines

Dedicated Transports
Sororitas Rhino
Immolator

Thanks to both of you for helping me out with this! Other than the Hospitaller (who is technically "Orderless" and could just be showing up as a non combatant tending to the wounded) and the Dialogi my issue is still that I want a Missionary just leading his force which includes a few Sisters without taking that extra shoehorned Adepta Sororitas character. That is the "illegal" part about it and the thing I find annoying. What if there is a Sister Superior on a world with her squad guarding a small shrine or enclave and a Missionary needs them to help exterminate a threat or something? There are no Hospitallers, Dialogi, Dogmata, or other characters around, just that Superior and her squad. All fluffy and narrative of course, but it just sucks we can't have that.

If I make a narrative Battle Forged list I will throw the Hospitaller in and make it work, but my gripe is with the fact we can't have some specific things, that I view as very fluffy, in a matched play Battle Forged Army.

GFdoubles wrote:
Thanks to both of you for helping me out with this! Other than the Hospitaller (who is technically "Orderless" and could just be showing up as a non combatant tending to the wounded) and the Dialogi my issue is still that I want a Missionary just leading his force which includes a few Sisters without taking that extra shoehorned Adepta Sororitas character. That is the "illegal" part about it and the thing I find annoying. What if there is a Sister Superior on a world with her squad guarding a small shrine or enclave and a Missionary needs them to help exterminate a threat or something? There are no Hospitallers, Dialogi, Dogmata, or other characters around, just that Superior and her squad. All fluffy and narrative of course, but it just sucks we can't have that.

If I make a narrative Battle Forged list I will throw the Hospitaller in and make it work, but my gripe is with the fact we can't have some specific things, that I view as very fluffy, in a matched play Battle Forged Army.

Technically what you are describing isn't an Adepta Sororitas force. It's a Adeptus Minstorum force that happens to have a SOB unit in it. You do miss out on a bit from not being an Adepta Sororitas force, but those are the sacrifices you need to make for the rules.

If you want to both forge the narrative and get the rules, then forge that narrative! Put a Palatine or Canoness in the force and say she is a really heroic Sister Superior to that one Battle Sister squad you included.

 alextroy wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:
Thanks to both of you for helping me out with this! Other than the Hospitaller (who is technically "Orderless" and could just be showing up as a non combatant tending to the wounded) and the Dialogi my issue is still that I want a Missionary just leading his force which includes a few Sisters without taking that extra shoehorned Adepta Sororitas character. That is the "illegal" part about it and the thing I find annoying. What if there is a Sister Superior on a world with her squad guarding a small shrine or enclave and a Missionary needs them to help exterminate a threat or something? There are no Hospitallers, Dialogi, Dogmata, or other characters around, just that Superior and her squad. All fluffy and narrative of course, but it just sucks we can't have that.

If I make a narrative Battle Forged list I will throw the Hospitaller in and make it work, but my gripe is with the fact we can't have some specific things, that I view as very fluffy, in a matched play Battle Forged Army.

Technically what you are describing isn't an Adepta Sororitas force. It's a Adeptus Minstorum force that happens to have a SOB unit in it. You do miss out on a bit from not being an Adepta Sororitas force, but those are the sacrifices you need to make for the rules.

If you want to both forge the narrative and get the rules, then forge that narrative! Put a Palatine or Canoness in the force and say she is a really heroic Sister Superior to that one Battle Sister squad you included.

I definitely like that train of thought thanks! A Palatine would definitely make sense, maybe she was even a Seraphim or Celestian Superior (who was previously a normal Sister Superior of course) who recently got promoted and even knows that particular squad really well and the other Sister Superior is actually a friend of hers or something that she helped get promoted or whatever! Definitely a bunch you can do to include that character without feeling shoehorned!

But yes you are correct, I am really looking for a Ministorum force with a few Battle Sisters. Also, as I stated a few posts above, what I would really love to see would be full benefits for building a purely Adeptus Ministorum force, like a Vanguard without any Adepta Sororitas units of course. Just a Missionary, Preacher, Engines of Redemption, and Battle Conclave units. While a list like that is of course legal and can be Battle-Forged, its just not that viable even spamming Engines lol. But more importantly, the only thing to truly set it apart from Adepta Sororitas detachments is that it doesn't have any cool or interesting rules that affect the whole "facton" other than Zealot, even if they were just fluffy and barely competitive. Even then, Zealot is shared with at least one Adepta Sororitas unit so it isn't even truly a "Ministorum" bonus. Again, I know its not happening, but just like Harlequins and Ynnari get some in-faction bonuses for being pure, it would be great to see our book have that too. Honestly I wish they had done the same thing with Kroot in Tau, give them a full set of bonuses for just being an army of "auxillaries."

There are plenty of factions that this could have applied to in the game of 40k, and while it would be beautiful to have an Adeptus Ministorum force with a token squad of Battle Sisters and still get the rules for the detachment, I would prefer if we just had Adepta Sororitas detachments that could run Ministorum auxillaries and then vice versa, each with their own set of interesting bonuses. The Adeptus Ministorum stuff could just be low power narrative stuff of course, nothing like Miracle Dice/Acts of Faith or Sacred Rites or anything, but something to show them being different but special from the Orders Militant. Just a way to represent the head forces of a frateris militia crusade or war of faith or whatever (even without frateris militia models or rules).

I can't disagree with you. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be Codex Adepta Sororitas if it supported non-AS detachments!

Wait. Codex Adeptus Custodes supports Sisters of Silence detachments? It's discrimination against the Ecclesarchy! I blame Roboute Guilliman.

 alextroy wrote:
I can't disagree with you. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be Codex Adepta Sororitas if it supported non-AS detachments!

Wait. Codex Adeptus Custodes supports Sisters of Silence detachments? It's discrimination against the Ecclesarchy! I blame Roboute Guilliman.

He's not exactly fond of the Eccleiarchy, so I don't think he'd mind.

 alextroy wrote:
I can't disagree with you. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be Codex Adepta Sororitas if it supported non-AS detachments!

Wait. Codex Adeptus Custodes supports Sisters of Silence detachments? It's discrimination against the Ecclesarchy! I blame Roboute Guilliman.

Any facetiousness notwithstanding (not sure if there was any, apologies in advance if I am missing any implied sarcasm or, conversely, actual sincerity), this is exactly my point. I see no issue with Codex Adepta Sororitas supporting Adeptus Ministorum detachments (even if there was some caveat that they could only be taken as Battle Forged in Combat Patrol games, since the Ecclesiarchy technically should not be going to war without their actual military, the Orders Militant). I understand GW's idea of "the Ecclesiarchy relies on the Sisters to be their military, and so any other large form of "men at arms" would be looked at as a breach of the Decree Passive, so we cannot allow people to actually see viability in pure Ministorum forces" but it just really hurts a way to play the army. If Custodes can support SoS detachments, Aeldari can support Harlequins and Ynnari, then Adepta Sororitas can support Ministorum detachments! Who knows, the new chaos book may even support pure cultist detachments, especially since they might be getting that new HQ if the rumors are true!

If its good for the goose, then its good for the gander in my book! GW will never do it for all the weapons and rules for each faction (rightly so, to keep diversity of course) but at least allow it for how Factions and subfactions within those Factions function please!

Thanks for the discussion though, this turned into a very interesting thread!

GFdoubles wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I can't disagree with you. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be Codex Adepta Sororitas if it supported non-AS detachments!

Wait. Codex Adeptus Custodes supports Sisters of Silence detachments? It's discrimination against the Ecclesarchy! I blame Roboute Guilliman.

Any facetiousness notwithstanding (not sure if there was any, apologies in advance if I am missing any implied sarcasm or, conversely, actual sincerity), this is exactly my point. I see no issue with Codex Adepta Sororitas supporting Adeptus Ministorum detachments (even if there was some caveat that they could only be taken as Battle Forged in Combat Patrol games, since the Ecclesiarchy technically should not be going to war without their actual military, the Orders Militant). I understand GW's idea of "the Ecclesiarchy relies on the Sisters to be their military, and so any other large form of "men at arms" would be looked at as a breach of the Decree Passive, so we cannot allow people to actually see viability in pure Ministorum forces" but it just really hurts a way to play the army. If Custodes can support SoS detachments, Aeldari can support Harlequins and Ynnari, then Adepta Sororitas can support Ministorum detachments! Who knows, the new chaos book may even support pure cultist detachments, especially since they might be getting that new HQ if the rumors are true!

If its good for the goose, then its good for the gander in my book! GW will never do it for all the weapons and rules for each faction (rightly so, to keep diversity of course) but at least allow it for how Factions and subfactions within those Factions function please!

Thanks for the discussion though, this turned into a very interesting thread!

That and it could/would absolutely happen. Some "backwater" world with low numbers of "official" Imperium military would absolutely see these "militia gangs" of religious volunteers, while the less religious would still be around when the Guard started rounding people up for the "Draft".

Breton wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I can't disagree with you. But on the other hand, it wouldn't be Codex Adepta Sororitas if it supported non-AS detachments!

Wait. Codex Adeptus Custodes supports Sisters of Silence detachments? It's discrimination against the Ecclesarchy! I blame Roboute Guilliman.

Any facetiousness notwithstanding (not sure if there was any, apologies in advance if I am missing any implied sarcasm or, conversely, actual sincerity), this is exactly my point. I see no issue with Codex Adepta Sororitas supporting Adeptus Ministorum detachments (even if there was some caveat that they could only be taken as Battle Forged in Combat Patrol games, since the Ecclesiarchy technically should not be going to war without their actual military, the Orders Militant). I understand GW's idea of "the Ecclesiarchy relies on the Sisters to be their military, and so any other large form of "men at arms" would be looked at as a breach of the Decree Passive, so we cannot allow people to actually see viability in pure Ministorum forces" but it just really hurts a way to play the army. If Custodes can support SoS detachments, Aeldari can support Harlequins and Ynnari, then Adepta Sororitas can support Ministorum detachments! Who knows, the new chaos book may even support pure cultist detachments, especially since they might be getting that new HQ if the rumors are true!

If its good for the goose, then its good for the gander in my book! GW will never do it for all the weapons and rules for each faction (rightly so, to keep diversity of course) but at least allow it for how Factions and subfactions within those Factions function please!

Thanks for the discussion though, this turned into a very interesting thread!

That and it could/would absolutely happen. Some "backwater" world with low numbers of "official" Imperium military would absolutely see these "militia gangs" of religious volunteers, while the less religious would still be around when the Guard started rounding people up for the "Draft".

Exactly! If it would/could absolutely happen in the lore, then there should be a somewhat viable way to play it in the codex as long as GW keeps espousing the fact that they want to make each faction "feel the way they should be on the tabletop." That has been my entire point with this, give us the option at least! "Decree Passive" can still be there for the Adepta Sororitas Detachments, but then give something else for wholly Adeptus Ministorum ones.

GFdoubles wrote:
Thanks to both of you for helping me out with this! Other than the Hospitaller (who is technically "Orderless" and could just be showing up as a non combatant tending to the wounded) and the Dialogi my issue is still that I want a Missionary just leading his force which includes a few Sisters without taking that extra shoehorned Adepta Sororitas character. That is the "illegal" part about it and the thing I find annoying. What if there is a Sister Superior on a world with her squad guarding a small shrine or enclave and a Missionary needs them to help exterminate a threat or something? There are no Hospitallers, Dialogi, Dogmata, or other characters around, just that Superior and her squad. All fluffy and narrative of course, but it just sucks we can't have that.

You are aware that hospitaliers, dialogus, agathae, etc, etc, auxiliary units are NOT sisters of battle and are in fact more likely to accompany priests, not sisters, according to the fluff because they are 'peaceful' specializations and accompany sisters as an exception, not a rule?

Hell, even 'sister' units like imagifier, repentia, dogmata, or the banner sister can just be human followers of the missionary (use converted civilian model) who carry religious items or whips and just 'happen' to use rules of particular sister unit as best fit of what they represent. Why exactly missionary can't have someone carrying holy symbol or whipping heretics around, again? How is that a problem? In fact, a priest important enough to have multiple penitent engines and battle conclaves not having such servants around is the weird thing, not the other way around...

 Irbis wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:
Thanks to both of you for helping me out with this! Other than the Hospitaller (who is technically "Orderless" and could just be showing up as a non combatant tending to the wounded) and the Dialogi my issue is still that I want a Missionary just leading his force which includes a few Sisters without taking that extra shoehorned Adepta Sororitas character. That is the "illegal" part about it and the thing I find annoying. What if there is a Sister Superior on a world with her squad guarding a small shrine or enclave and a Missionary needs them to help exterminate a threat or something? There are no Hospitallers, Dialogi, Dogmata, or other characters around, just that Superior and her squad. All fluffy and narrative of course, but it just sucks we can't have that.

You are aware that hospitaliers, dialogus, agathae, etc, etc, auxiliary units are NOT sisters of battle and are in fact more likely to accompany priests, not sisters, according to the fluff because they are 'peaceful' specializations and accompany sisters as an exception, not a rule?

Hell, even 'sister' units like imagifier, repentia, dogmata, or the banner sister can just be human followers of the missionary (use converted civilian model) who carry religious items or whips and just 'happen' to use rules of particular sister unit as best fit of what they represent. Why exactly missionary can't have someone carrying holy symbol or whipping heretics around, again? How is that a problem? In fact, a priest important enough to have multiple penitent engines and battle conclaves not having such servants around is the weird thing, not the other way around...

Yes I am well aware that the Orders Dialogus, Famulous, and Hospitaller Sisters such as Hospitallers, Dialogi, and other specialist units that are related to but technically fall outside of the "Orders Militant" would be far more likely to accompany Priests, Confessors, Missionaries, Preachers, Deacons, and other moderate to high ranking Ecclesiarchy members. I am not saying that it is completely NOT fluffy or narrative to have those characters in a predominantly Ministorum force. In fact, those are definitely the characters that you can easily "shoehorn" into any kind of "retinue." My main point with all of this was to best represent, in a matched play game with Battle-Forged armies, a force of completely Ministorum units and/or a force of predominantly Ministorum auxillary units with an attached Adepta Sororitas unit such as a squad of Battle Sisters, Seraphim, etc. Like a Confessor with a Sororitas Bodyguard and Battle Conclave retinue but without any Dialogi, Hospitallers, etc. It was mainly to stretch the Decree Passive as far as it could go without actually breaking it (by actually just breaking the detachment rule instead).

Again, as I have said multiple times, I think what I really want are either frateris militia back, or just some kind of pure "Adeptus Ministorum" rule that you get if you take detachments of Ministorum units without Adepta Sororitas characters or even just a single unit of Adepta Sororitas forces. Maybe something akin to the battle conclave rule but in reverse, where you can only bring one Adepta Sororitas unit unless you bring a character along. Like the preachers and missionaries have with the battle conclave units. Honestly, wth all the mindless zealotry in the Ministorum, I would love for them to just ignore morale or get like +2 LD or something. While not super strong it would definitely represent Arcos, Crusaders, DCA, and the Priest units never wavering in their faith, even to the bitter end. But GW wants morale to matter so I know that's not happening. This is all just wishlisting.

Again thanks for all of the comments about my really weird and abstract little hope. As I have said, I probably wouldn't ever actually make a force like this, I just want that option to be there in the book and for it to be a somewhat viable way to play even if it was only in combat patrol missions. While we have gained so much over the past few years, I feel like we have lost just as much in that same time and of course well before it. As much as we feel like we should, there are certain niche aspects like what I am bringing up here that only really work in purely narrative play and its a bit of a shame.I am still glad we can do it at least, its just me being nitpicky with exactly how to do it. There is just no pleasing me unless the Ministorum had a cool orfluffy rule (aside from Zealot) to represent forces that were acting separately to the Orders Militant (for the same purpose though of course), or with some incredibly small amount of Adepta Sororitas unit support.