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The Alaitoc Craftworld has a unique Stratagem that lets them place a unit of Rangers out of Strategic Reserve between 9-18" immediately after an Enemy unit has arrived out of Strategic Reserves. Then, at the end of the enemy reinforcement phase, they may fire upon that unit (and only that unit; as long as they're capable of actually doing so).

There's also a Craftworld Stratagem called "Forewarned" that, at the end of the Enemy reinforcement phase, lets any friendly unit within 12" of a Farseer fire on an enemy unit that arrived via reinforcement (again, as long as they actually can and are within 18".)

The way I read this, I think that it's entirely possible for an enemy unit to arrive somewhere, Rangers to set up in a way so that they're within the 9-18" requirement and then shoot once for the Alaitoc Stratagem, and then immediately shoot again by use of the Farseer activated one (as long as they're within 12" of the Farseer)?

Have I got this right? Ought I to provide exact wording on the rules?

Could you post the full text of the two stratagems?

Alaitoc "Pathfinder Ambush" 1CP:

Use this stratagem in the Reinforcements step of your opponent's Movement phase, after an enemy unit has been set up on the battlefield. Select one Alaitoc Rangers unit from your army that is either on the battlefield or Strategic reserves.

- If that Rangers unit is in Strategic Reserves, set it up anywhere on the battlefield within 18" of that enemy unit and more than 9" away from any enemy models.
- At the end of the phase, that Rangers unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, but until the end of the phase, it can only target the enemy unit that was just set up on the battlefield (and only if that enemy unit is an eligible target).

Farseer "Forewarned" 2CP:

Use this stratagem at the end of the Reinforcements step of your opponent's Movement phase. Select one <Craftworld> unit from your army within 12" of a friendly <Craftworld> Farseer model. That <Craftworld> can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, but its models can only target a single eligible enemy unit that was set up as Reinforcements this tuen and that is within 18" of their unit when doing so.




These seem compatible to me! For 1 + 2 = 3 CP, a Ranger unit may fire twice at the same unit. Probably not super worth it, but still could catch some units off-guard, right?

Well 4 CP because it costs a CP to put the Rangers into Strategic Reserves right?

But yeah I can't find anything that would stop this, so go nuts.

A unit cannot shoot more than once in each shooting phase. No stratagem says the unit can shoot a second time, or again.

SHOOTING PHASE
.
.
No unit can be selected to shoot with more than once in each Shooting phase. Once all your eligible units that you wish to shoot with have done so, your Shooting phase ends and you progress to the Charge phase.

It’s not the Shooting Phase.

I reckon that in time they’ll FAQ it so it’ll not be possible to do both.

 p5freak wrote:
A unit cannot shoot more than once in each shooting phase. No stratagem says the unit can shoot a second time, or again.

SHOOTING PHASE
.
.
No unit can be selected to shoot with more than once in each Shooting phase. Once all your eligible units that you wish to shoot with have done so, your Shooting phase ends and you progress to the Charge phase.

Yeah thats nice and all, but the Shoot Again section of the rare rules/rules appendix says this, and there is no limitations stated.

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used.

When a unit shoots again, any models in that unit that have already shot with any of the weapons they are equipped with earlier in that phase can shoot with those weapons one additional time. When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time. When a model can shoot with a specific weapon again, that model can shoot with it one additional time if it has already shot with it earlier in that phase

Maaaybe you could make the argument that one additional time restricts it, but it can be read either way imo.

No doubt there's inherent bias on my part, but the wording of "SHOOT AGAIN" suggests to me that it's completely fine to use both abilities to make a unit shoot twice.

I read the "additional" less as a restriction that means it may only shoot again once, and more simply as a way of clarifying that the unit may shoot again. I can totally see the argument for why it's not clear cut, however.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s not the Shooting Phase.

I reckon that in time they’ll FAQ it so it’ll not be possible to do both.

Both stratagems say the unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, therefore all shooting phase rules apply, and the unit can only shoot once.

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

 M0ff3l wrote:

Yeah thats nice and all, but the Shoot Again section of the rare rules/rules appendix says this, and there is no limitations stated.

Neither stratagem says the unit can shoot again. There is no need to state limitations, the limitation of a unit can only shoot once per shooting phase is in the shooting phase rules.

 M0ff3l wrote:

Yeah thats nice and all, but the Shoot Again section of the rare rules/rules appendix says this, and there is no limitations stated.

Neither stratagem says the unit can shoot again. There is no need to state limitations, the limitation of a unit can only shoot once per shooting phase is in the shooting phase rules.

Are we reading the same rule for Shoot Again?

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’.

p5freak:

Are you implying that in order to use either of those Stratagems, a unit has had to forego its shooting in the previous Shooting Phase entirely? That seems a stretch!

No, i dont. There is the real shooting phase in your turn, in which that unit can shoot as normal, which is once. Then there is that "as if" shooting phase (which is not the same as the real shooting phase in your turn, its like shooting phase b), where all shooting phase rules apply. And one of those rules is that a unit cannot fire twice. So you can use either Forewarned or Pathfinder Ambush. You cant use both because you would violate the rule that a unit can only fire once per shooting phase.

 p5freak wrote:
No, i dont. There is the real shooting phase in your turn, in which that unit can shoot as normal, which is once. Then there is that "as if" shooting phase (which is not the same as the real shooting phase in your turn, its like shooting phase b), where all shooting phase rules apply. And one of those rules is that a unit cannot fire twice. So you can use either Forewarned or Pathfinder Ambush. You cant use both because you would violate the rule that a unit can only fire once per shooting phase.

This interpretation of the rules doesn't make any sense. If this were the case then no rule could ever allow a unit to shoot twice in the shooting phase "because they already shot once". The shoot again rule allows them to shoot additional times and there is no limit set.

 M0ff3l wrote:

This interpretation of the rules doesn't make any sense. If this were the case then no rule could ever allow a unit to shoot twice in the shooting phase "because they already shot once". The shoot again rule allows them to shoot additional times and there is no limit set.

Not true. The stratagem endless cacophony specifically says that the unit can shoot AGAIN. Which allows them to do that. A stratagem that allows a unit to shoot doesnt mean it can shoot a second time. It needs to say something like again, second time, etc.

ENDLESS CACOPHONY

Use this Stratagem at the end of your Shooting phase. Select a HERETIC ASTARTES SLAANESH INFANTRY or BIKER unit – that unit can immediately shoot again.

 p5freak wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

This interpretation of the rules doesn't make any sense. If this were the case then no rule could ever allow a unit to shoot twice in the shooting phase "because they already shot once". The shoot again rule allows them to shoot additional times and there is no limit set.

Not true. The stratagem endless cacophony specifically says that the unit can shoot AGAIN. Which allows them to do that. A stratagem that allows a unit to shoot doesnt mean it can shoot a second time. It needs to say something like again, second time, etc.

ENDLESS CACOPHONY

Use this Stratagem at the end of your Shooting phase. Select a HERETIC ASTARTES SLAANESH INFANTRY or BIKER unit – that unit can immediately shoot again.

If that were the case then why does the Shoot Again rule specifically call out shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’?

 M0ff3l wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
No, i dont. There is the real shooting phase in your turn, in which that unit can shoot as normal, which is once. Then there is that "as if" shooting phase (which is not the same as the real shooting phase in your turn, its like shooting phase b), where all shooting phase rules apply. And one of those rules is that a unit cannot fire twice. So you can use either Forewarned or Pathfinder Ambush. You cant use both because you would violate the rule that a unit can only fire once per shooting phase.

This interpretation of the rules doesn't make any sense. If this were the case then no rule could ever allow a unit to shoot twice in the shooting phase "because they already shot once". The shoot again rule allows them to shoot additional times and there is no limit set.

Agreed. There is nothing saying these two out of sequence Shooting attacks occur in a shared counts-as-Shooting Phase space that p5 claims. Whilst I agree with his RAI outcome and reckon that is where an FAQ might land, he’s working outside the actual rules space that we have to follow. Right goal, probably the right answer RAI/after FAQ, working is completely gonzo however.

Let’s not however let this turn into a thread where one guy tries to keeps stapling more part-rules on to prop up a bad take. Just let it go now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Agreed. There is nothing saying these two out of sequence Shooting attacks accurate in a shared counts-as-Shooting Phase space that p5 claims.

Looks like you missed the part where i quoted the out of phase rules. All actual rules from that phase apply when you do that "as if" shooting phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Agreed. There is nothing saying these two out of sequence Shooting attacks accurate in a shared counts-as-Shooting Phase space that p5 claims.

Looks like you missed the part where i quoted the out of phase rules. All actual rules from that phase apply when you do that "as if" shooting phase.

So the shoot again rule only applies when you feel like it?

 M0ff3l wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Agreed. There is nothing saying these two out of sequence Shooting attacks accurate in a shared counts-as-Shooting Phase space that p5 claims.

Looks like you missed the part where i quoted the out of phase rules. All actual rules from that phase apply when you do that "as if" shooting phase.

So the shoot again rule only applies when you feel like it?

No. The shoot again says such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used. A unit isnt eligible to shoot again, or a second time, in the shooting phase, unless it is given explicit permission to do so.

 p5freak wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Agreed. There is nothing saying these two out of sequence Shooting attacks accurate in a shared counts-as-Shooting Phase space that p5 claims.

Looks like you missed the part where i quoted the out of phase rules. All actual rules from that phase apply when you do that "as if" shooting phase.

So the shoot again rule only applies when you feel like it?

No. The shoot again says such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used. A unit isnt eligible to shoot again, or a second time, in the shooting phase, unless it is given explicit permission to do so.

How much more explicit does it have to be? It classifies "shoot as if it were the shooting phase" as shooting again.

Forget it, M0ff3l, it's p5town.

Just ignore and move on.

No where is the duration of the out of phase shooting instance dictated. Even if you're limited to shooting once in the out of phase instance, there's no limit to the number of out of phase instances you can have. i don't see where out of phase shooting is tied to any current phase duration.

Currently in Phase: Enemy End of Reinforcment Phase

Eldar plays strat
new instance created
out of phase shooting occurs
shooing resolved
isntance closed
strat resolved

eldar plays second strat
new instance
out of phase shooting occurs
shooting resolved
instance closed
strat resolved