Switch Theme:

Wargame Design Discussion - Immunity to Weapons  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Here's one which comes up in my mind quite often - should you, or should you not, make certain units in wargames immune to certain weapons.

Let's take 40k as an example. In the "good old days", vehicles had armour facings and as such, could reliably become immune to small arms fire. Ladraiders had AV14, and you needed to roll S + 1d6 to get through it, so anything S7 or less couldn't touch it.

This gave vehicles a niche position in 40k, because they could also be destroyed by one good shot, chipped away over several, or literally tank every shot from the enemy for the entire game and have nothing to show for it but the inability to fire their guns for a turn. Bigger guns (Ordnance) and bigger hitters (Monsters) cold do more damage to them more easily too.

Nowadays 40k feels a bit homogenous to me, with vehicles and monsters filling the same role - lots of wounds, good save, high toughness.

So, it begs the question - was it a good thing to have units in a game which were immune to small arms fire, and could feasibly shrug off a poorly picked out army? Is making a vehicle/shielded unit/ whatever weak but only to the right attacks a good game design or a bad one?

Please discuss!

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think it is great, unless it is possible to spam the immune unit or give blanket immunity to a large part of the force, as it leads to boring "gear check" games where one player can't compete due to the lack of an appropriate counter.

If both sides have a balanced distribution of their respective "rocks, papers and scissors" it makes for interesting games about who can get their weapons against their optimal targets.
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




Makes for a kind of rock-paper-scissors situation, doesn't it?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

There's a few aspects to this.

1) Creating units that cannot be harmed or cannot be harmed much by other certain types of unit/weapon creates niches in the game. In a game where everything can equally hurt everything else its much harder to justify lots of different types of unit and model because in the end people will spam the most effective choices as much as they can.

Instead when you have things that can only be hurt by certain other units, you create a need for people to take more varied forces to deal with a wider range of opposing forces. It creates niches for units to fit into and increases the potential for the game to support a diverse range of models and units.

2) It can have issues, eg air units at one time were very overpowered in 40K because nothing could hit them save for anti-air. So if you took a lot of air units and your opponent took very few anti-air guns you could wipe the table very easily.
This creates a risky element whereby your choice to increase diversity by creating niches (point 1); suddenly results in a new min-max arms race.

3) Visually in the game as a playing experience I think it creates a good cinematic effect. When anything can equally hurt anything you have units with light weapons killing big things that shouldn't happen regularly. Instead of a super lucky shot or series of situation, its just infantry taking out tanks with light arms. It takes away from the sense of the cinematic and fantasy element of the game




In the end both extreme approaches have their downsides; but also upsides too. I think the key is how the extremes are managed and controlled and how easily one cna spam certain units. Eg GW recently introduced "rule of 3" as a broad limit. In the past they've had things like the Force Organisation Chart and some units, even today, have strict limits on how many you can take in a whole army (eg all unique characters are a 0-1 choice).




Personally I welcome the creation of niches within the game as that allows the army to have the most diverse range of model types. Ergo you get to buy and play with more models instead of armies that are just one or two units spammed over the whole table, which might change with a new edition where you spam a new unit type.
But it has to be done with balance in mind and not in isolation of changes and adjustments to other areas to ensure that it doesn't create problems of it own.




If you hold GW games up as an example you can often spot where they have good ideas; but where they often take them to the extreme where they flip from being a good idea to having a negative play impact.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




@ Nomeny And it's bad? You have to manoeuver to bring your rock weapons against scissor targets and so on. It's up to you - player - to make it work.

IMO much better than leaving everything to randomness and dice again. Most elegant games I know use a lot of simple binary solutions like these, without muddying the waters with a spectrum of results based on RNG (like oldschool wargames tend to do).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 12:56:01


 
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




@Cyel: Like you said, it's not great when it means you have to bring rock or scissors will cut up all your paper.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Nomeny wrote:
@Cyel: Like you said, it's not great when it means you have to bring rock or scissors will cut up all your paper.



At the same time it means that you've got rock, paper and scissors to play with.

IF everything is purely random and anything hurts anything you'll just bring rock. Because rock is strongest and hits the hardest every time.



Sure you have the choice to take others, but you'd end up defaulting to the most efficient damage dealing units every single time. Any unit limits would purely limit those and you'd see a lot of very similar armies and compositions because there's only one metric to worry about.



By introducing units that are stronger or weaker against specific other units you create a situation where you have to bring rock, paper and scissors to the match. You use unit limits to balance those so that you don't weight to one and chance that your opponent didn't weight to your counter.

Eg why bother buying, building, painting and bringing the cool anti-air model if every single model can shoot air units and there's a big infantry blob that costs the same or less in points, which puts out way more hits and potential damage to air units. Now the air battery has to have equal or better than the big infantry block.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 14:10:10


A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

I am generally supportive of the concept, but it needs to be done carefully IMO. There are two big pitfalls to be aware of:

1. Differing resolution systems - the 40k implementation where damage resolved differently vs vehicles than vs everything else in the game is a poor approach. It requires players to learn basically two parallel damage resolution systems that each had their own separate peculiarities and caveats that could have sometimes wierd interplay with other rules. In turn, it required the design studio to often add additional clauses to other rules to account for how rules or abilities might interact around these two systems, which resulted in additional rules overhead and system bloat. Another issue on the design side was where do you draw the line between them? I.E. why are Dreadnoughts vehicles but not Crisis Suits or Wraithlords? Why are Carnifexes monstrous creatures but not Soul Grinders? A side effect of all this was that certain weapons which could devestate a vehicle in a single shot could barely tickle monstrous creatures (e.g. - a Hammerhead mounted railgun), which resulted in a meta that preferred spamming S6-S8 weapons, as many of these intermediate strength usually fired multiple shots (whereas S9-10 weapons usually only fired 1 shot at most and thus were often considered to be overpriced) which made them more effective in the anti-monster role while also being reasonably effective against vehicles as well.

All-in-all, its a very inefficient approach instead of utilizing a common approach to damage resolution for both types of targets. An example of how this could be better achieved within the 40k framework - use higher toughnesses instead of armor values for vehicles, but larger models have "facings" so they might be more tough when attacked from the front than the rear, etc. and the to-wound chart allows for low strength weapons to be unable to wound high toughness models. Another alternative would be to separte weapon strength into an "anti-personnel" and "anti-materiel" stat, which would allow for weapons that are more effective at killing vehicles but less effective at killing infantry, and vice versa.

2. Invulnerability Traps - the old 40k implementation, in certain matchups under certain conditions, made it possible for certain units to become essentially immune to attack. If I brought a land raider to the table, and you didn't bring any weapons above strength 7 - or if you brought an insufficient quantity of them and I happened to remove them from the table early on - then the land raider was essentially immune to attack as you had no other means to damage it.
While some would argue this to be realistic (and even thats debatable, as battlefield are littered with the discarded weapons of fallen soldiers, and even lightly armed infantry can find ways to knock a tank out of service in a close-up assault using grenades and improvised explosives), I would argue that its poor form from a design standpoint.

This type of play should be rewarded (if you succeed in taking out all your opponents heavy weapons) or punished (if you allow your opponent to destroy them all), but not by rendering units wholly immune to recourse (and by extension games potentially unlosable/unwinnable as a result). If you implement a system in which certain weapons cannot harm certain targets, then I will argue that the game needs to include a system that ensures that a player will always have access to some form of recourse against said target, even if they would lack the "normal" means to do so. This form of recourse should be inefficient - remember, you should be punished for allowing your opponent to snipe out all your heavy weapons and neutralize your most capable weapons, but that doesn't mean you should just have to take the worst of what your opponent has to offer with no means to strike back. In other words, your game needs a sort of "catch-up mechanic" that allows for a player to make sub-optimal or higher risk/low reward strikes against targets which are otherwise immune to the effects of the remaining weaponry on the table.

There are numerous ways to achieve this and justify it, in the context of older editions of 40k they did so by way of grenades. Most units in the game had access to some form of them and their use in the assault phase allowed for even baically equipped light infantry units to harm most vehicles under certain circumstances - though I note that there were some armies that basically had little/no options in this regard, so somewhat poorly implemented in that sense. In a more modern iteration of 40k where the to-wound chart didn't allow for any weapon to harm any target on a 6+, I would argue for the inclusion of an "improvised weapon" strategem, one model gets to make an attack with like Heavy 1 R:12" S:8 AP:-1 D6 or something like that. Not enough to really be a major game changer, but still enough that a player won't be totally helpless. Another example is to borrow a page from Warmachine and institute a combined attack option (potentially also as a strategem) - nominate a model in a unit to make an attack, then you can nominate a number of additional models in the same unit to trade their own attacks in order to support the attack being made by that mode - each model that supports that attack adds +1S and +1D to the attack up to a max of +X/+Y, or something (in melee this could be justified by the models helping pull access panels off a tank in order to plant grenades in more vulnerable areas, for a ranged attack it could be explained as the models coming across an abandoned crew-serve weapon and the group coming together to load, target, aim, and fire an artillery round or whatever at the opposing vehicle).

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Damage D 6?
‘Ow da Zog does that work?

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Here are my thoughts on "invincible" units:

http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2022/01/wargame-design-invincible-units.html

So to summarize, Yes. You should have units that are immune to other units. It creates tactical and strategic challenges.

Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




It would be neat if there was a tactical solution, like surrounding a unit for a crossfire or something, so a tank is invulnerable to rifles shooting at the glacis plating but less so when the infantry can get closer and around the sides.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 Overread wrote:
2) It can have issues, eg air units at one time were very overpowered in 40K because nothing could hit them save for anti-air. So if you took a lot of air units and your opponent took very few anti-air guns you could wipe the table very easily.


IMO the problem was that AA was only marginally more effective than normal units so you had to invest heavily in it to have any chance of stopping flyers, leaving yourself vulnerable to lists that don't take aircraft. What GW needed to do was keep flyers near-immune to everything but AA but then make AA effective enough that if you try to bring your flyers in before clearing the AA guns you're really going to feel the pain. If a Hydra or two can keep the enemy air support off the table then taking AA feels more like just a basic part of building a balanced list and not "you're playing Hydra spam today". And then at that point a list with no AA at all can get tossed into the "never design to accommodate deliberately bad lists" pile and ignored.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
 
Forum Index » Game Design
Go to: