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Hello,

Sorry if this is obvious but coming back after 5th edition I find list building a bit confusing. I wanted to run a stupid themey knights blood angels list but am confused by the cp refunds. If I nominate one of the knights as my warlord do I get the 6cp back ort does this only apply to purely knight lists.


Vanguard Detachment – Blood Angels - 3cp
3x 5 man blade guard
sanguinary priest
chaplain

super heavy detachment - 6 cp

Knight errant
Knight errant
Knight paladin

Sorry for the noob question just trying to learn especially with hearing there will be a dramatic cut in starting cp coming with the new book.

Wether or not you get your 6cp back is a moot point.
By including those Blood Angels you won't be Battlforged. You'll lose access to so many rules....

ccs wrote:
Wether or not you get your 6cp back is a moot point.
By including those Blood Angels you won't be Battlforged. You'll lose access to so many rules....

That's not how it works.

Since they're in different Detachments, you're still Battleforged. You lose access to Space Marine Doctrines, since you're taking more than a unit of Knights, but not general Battleforged bonuses.

Not a good thing to do considering the future limitations of CP players will start after the next update. A mix of two detachments from different factions will cripple most armies to having 0 CP.

You would need to put your Warlord in your Knight Detachment to get your 6 CPs refunded. A Vanguard Detachment does not have a rule for refunding CPs, even if your Warlord is part of it.

As noted above, you will lose access to various special rules including Doctrines ad Savage Echoes for the BAs and Oaths for the Knights. You may decide it is worth the trade but I am not convinced.

The alternative is to run a mainly BA army with a single Knight Freeblade allied in. This costs 3CPs and the Knight gains the "Agent of the Imperium" rule so the BAs can continue to claim Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The Knight does not gain Oaths and cannot be from one of the named houses.

You can take 1 Freeblade as an Agent of the Imperium and keep your Doctrines right?

 Karhedron wrote:
The alternative is to run a mainly BA army with a single Knight Freeblade allied in. This costs 3CPs and the Knight gains the "Agent of the Imperium" rule so the BAs can continue to claim Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The Knight does not gain Oaths and cannot be from one of the named houses.

This is half correct.

You can include a Freeblade Imperial Knights Detachment and retain use of Doctrines since the Freeblade unit gains Agent of the Imperium, which does not disqualify you from benefiting from Doctrines.

You do not retain use of Savage Echos since it requires all units in the army to be Blood Angels or Unaligned.

 alextroy wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The alternative is to run a mainly BA army with a single Knight Freeblade allied in. This costs 3CPs and the Knight gains the "Agent of the Imperium" rule so the BAs can continue to claim Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The Knight does not gain Oaths and cannot be from one of the named houses.

This is half correct.

You can include a Freeblade Imperial Knights Detachment and retain use of Doctrines since the Freeblade unit gains Agent of the Imperium, which does not disqualify you from benefiting from Doctrines.

You do not retain use of Savage Echos since it requires all units in the army to be Blood Angels or Unaligned.

Doesn't Agent of the Imperium specifically say that it doesn't stop abilities that require your whole army to have them?

Hecaton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The alternative is to run a mainly BA army with a single Knight Freeblade allied in. This costs 3CPs and the Knight gains the "Agent of the Imperium" rule so the BAs can continue to claim Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The Knight does not gain Oaths and cannot be from one of the named houses.

This is half correct.

You can include a Freeblade Imperial Knights Detachment and retain use of Doctrines since the Freeblade unit gains Agent of the Imperium, which does not disqualify you from benefiting from Doctrines.

You do not retain use of Savage Echos since it requires all units in the army to be Blood Angels or Unaligned.

Doesn't Agent of the Imperium specifically say that it doesn't stop abilities that require your whole army to have them?

Yes, but only if the AOTI unit is in a battalion, brigade, or patrol detachment. Because your freeblade is in a shaux detachment that doesnt work.

 p5freak wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The alternative is to run a mainly BA army with a single Knight Freeblade allied in. This costs 3CPs and the Knight gains the "Agent of the Imperium" rule so the BAs can continue to claim Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The Knight does not gain Oaths and cannot be from one of the named houses.

This is half correct.

You can include a Freeblade Imperial Knights Detachment and retain use of Doctrines since the Freeblade unit gains Agent of the Imperium, which does not disqualify you from benefiting from Doctrines.

You do not retain use of Savage Echos since it requires all units in the army to be Blood Angels or Unaligned.

Doesn't Agent of the Imperium specifically say that it doesn't stop abilities that require your whole army to have them?

Yes, but only if the AOTI unit is in a battalion, brigade, or patrol detachment. Because your freeblade is in a shaux detachment that doesnt work.

There are two parts to that ability; it both doesn't stop units in a detachment from gaining abilities, as well as the entire army. That's how it's phrased for Inquisitors, at least. So either it breaks all detachment abilities (including doctrines) or allows things like Savage Echoes.

The abilities Authority of the Inquisition and Agent of the Imperium allow the army to benefit from an ability that requires all units in the army to have the ability to benefit (like Doctrines does), but it does not exempt them from a rule that requires all units in the army have a specific Keyword.

Savage Echoes and the other "super doctrines" require every model in the army to have a specific Keyword. So no super doctrines if you have an Agent of the Imperium.

Special Note: If your purity ability doesn't specifically exempt Agents of the Imperium units, the presence of a Agent of the Imperium Knight will void your use of the ability because the Knight has the proper keyword but doesn't have the ability that grants an exemption itself.

 alextroy wrote:
The abilities Authority of the Inquisition and Agent of the Imperium allow the army to benefit from an ability that requires all units in the army to have the ability to benefit (like Doctrines does), but it does not exempt them from a rule that requires all units in the army have a specific Keyword.

Savage Echoes and the other "super doctrines" require every model in the army to have a specific Keyword. So no super doctrines if you have an Agent of the Imperium.

Special Note: If your purity ability doesn't specifically exempt Agents of the Imperium units, the presence of a Agent of the Imperium Knight will void your use of the ability because the Knight has the proper keyword but doesn't have the ability that grants an exemption itself.

That's interesting, since the Chaos equivalent (Fallen Hero) explicitly does work well with abilities that require a keyword.

"The inclusion of a Dreadblade Agent of Chaos unit in your army does not prevent Chaos units in your army from using any rules that require every model in your army to have the same keyword (e.g. Contagions of Nurgle, Cabbalistic Rituals etc)"

Might be worth double checking the exact wording for Imperial Knights. I would be astonished if the wording isn't equivalent.

The exact wording for Agent of the Imperium is below (emphasis is mine).

If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments. The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

Now the wording for Savage Echoes is as follows:

If every unit from your army (excluding UNALIGNED units) has the BLOOD ANGELS keyword, then every unit that has the Combat Doctrines ability and is in a BLOOD ANGELS Detachment gains the Savage Echoes ability, below.

So I think a BA Army with a Freeblade will get both Combat Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The only thing that prevents BAs from getting Savage Echoes is if models in the army do not have the BLOOD ANGEL keyword but Agent of the Imperium specifically overrides that, regardless of whether the AOTI model is in the same detachment or not.

 Karhedron wrote:
The exact wording for Agent of the Imperium is below (emphasis is mine).

If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments. The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

Now the wording for Savage Echoes is as follows:

If every unit from your army (excluding UNALIGNED units) has the BLOOD ANGELS keyword, then every unit that has the Combat Doctrines ability and is in a BLOOD ANGELS Detachment gains the Savage Echoes ability, below.

So I think a BA Army with a Freeblade will get both Combat Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The only thing that prevents BAs from getting Savage Echoes is if models in the army do not have the BLOOD ANGEL keyword but Agent of the Imperium specifically overrides that, regardless of whether the AOTI model is in the same detachment or not.

Is that how the rules appear in Codex: Imperial Knights? Because that's what we're discussing here. I strongly suspect that the wording for the rule is slightly different for this exact reason.

 Karhedron wrote:
The exact wording for Agent of the Imperium is below (emphasis is mine).

If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments. The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

Now the wording for Savage Echoes is as follows:

If every unit from your army (excluding UNALIGNED units) has the BLOOD ANGELS keyword, then every unit that has the Combat Doctrines ability and is in a BLOOD ANGELS Detachment gains the Savage Echoes ability, below.

So I think a BA Army with a Freeblade will get both Combat Doctrines and Savage Echoes. The only thing that prevents BAs from getting Savage Echoes is if models in the army do not have the BLOOD ANGEL keyword but Agent of the Imperium specifically overrides that, regardless of whether the AOTI model is in the same detachment or not.

I think you need to read both those rules again. Nowhere in Agent of the Imperium does it say anything about keywords. Savage Echoes requires all units to have the Blood Angels Keyword, so you can't use Savage Echoes if there are units without Blood Angels keyword in your army, except Unaligned units.

Savage Echoes is a Detachment ability so they explicitly get it just fine. It’s just the sentence before the one they chose to bold that applies.

Seconded

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Savage Echoes is a Detachment ability so they explicitly get it just fine. It’s just the sentence before the one they chose to hold that applies.

Indeed, this.