Ability/stratagem Timing

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**AndrewC**

Hi,

I've not played for the last 2 years and haven't kept up on faqs and other sources. Hoping that you kind people may be able to help.

Timings;

Is an ability/stratagem that takes place at "The start of the first battle round" considered to take place at a different time to one that takes place at "The start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins". I think they are, but the qualifier made me think I should ask.

Effects;

The last time I played there was a rule that prohibited abilities/stratagems that had identical affects being placed on units. That seems to have been superseded to effects don't stack. What about similar but not identical effects. So if a unit can self heal and there is a healer nearby, can the unit heal twice? Or if a unit is moved by a stratagem and then has an ability to move itself outwith the move phase, can it move twice?

Any guidance/advice/help most appreciated.

Andrew

**U02dah4**

Yes their synonyms

Identical named effects don't stack

Identical effecting effects can stack subject to

Hit roles are capped at +1 or -1 but (+1+1-1 would be a valid way of achieving +1)

Some effects obviously do nothing when stacked e.g. Two instances of gain the fly keyword

Replacement effects don't stack. E.g Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead would not stack with another Identical worded ability

But Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores an additional hit would stack

If the rule specifies otherwise is doesn't stack

So for your healing answer yes a unit can be healed twice by different abilities however some healing such as awaken the machines specify that only one instance can target a model even if three tech priests are near one vehicle

As to movement there are many stratagems whose sole purpose is to move a unit outwith the movement phase players often use these to fire then move the firing unit behind obscuring terrain. It's fine to move twice as long as the rule doesn't specify otherwise

**EightFoldPath**

It does often help if you explain your cunning plan rather than ask vague questions.

From the lastest GT pack Arks of Omen, the battle steps are:

12. Determine First Turn
The players roll off. The winner takes the first turn.

13. Resolve Pre-battle Abilities
The players alternate resolving any pre-battle abilities units from their army may have, and resolving any Stratagems that are used before the battle (excluding Requisition Stratagems, those that upgrade their units, and those that enable them to set up a unit in a location other than the battlefield), starting with the player who will take the first turn.

14. Begin the Battle
The first battle round begins. The players continue to resolve battle rounds until the battle ends.

So it sounds like both abilities will fall in 13.

You should be able to double heal or double extra move if the two differently named abilities allow it, but again it might be interesting to look at those abilities because GW have tried to prevent that kind of thing (but this is GW so they will probably have failed somewhere).

Also, sometimes people explain their cunning plan and the answer is "yes you can do that and it isn't even that broken compared to X".

**U02dah4**

Admech can double heal but do so with some in command and then some in movement.

**BorderCountess**

On the other end of healing question, Thousand Sons have several abilities that can heal, but they all place limits on how much healing can be done (typically, a unit can only be healed once per turn, regardless of source).

**JohnnyHell**

To echo someone above, it sems like this needs specifics to give a proper answer, OP. What’s your intended play?

**AndrewC**

No cunning plan or anything like that, just genuinely trying to wrap my head around a couple of rules.

The issue that cause me to question my sanity relates to a Tau custom sept rule that allows infantry in my deployment area to make a 6" pregame move and Kroot that have another pregame move of 7".

So does the Kroot move 6" or 13" . Both rules are similar but different. Both are outwith the normal turn structure.

Cheers

Andrew

**U02dah4**

I can't see any reason why they wouldn't stack

**EightFoldPath**

Found something in the rare rules for a bit of extra information:

These terms are commonly used in many rules. We wanted to clarify when each of these happens in the mission sequences that appear in mission packs such as Open Hostility, Eternal War etc.

At the Start of Deployment: A rule that happens ‘at the start of deployment’, is resolved at the start of the ‘Declare Transports and Reserves’ step of the sequence. Combat Squads (see Codex: Space Marines) is an example of just such a rule.
During Deployment: A rule that happens ‘during deployment’ can happen any time between the start of the ‘Declare Transports and Reserves’ step and the end of the ‘Deploy Armies’ step. The rule itself will provide further details as to exactly when it is used, but typically if the rule lets you set a unit up in a location that is not on the battlefield, it happens during the ‘Declare Transports and Reserves’ step, otherwise it happens during the ‘Deploy Armies’ step. Teleport Strike and Concealed Positions (see Codex: Space Marines) are examples of just such rules that are resolved at different times; a rule such as Teleport Strike allows a unit to set up in a location that is not on the battlefield, and so is resolved in the ‘Declare Transports and Reserves’ step; a rule like Concealed Positions triggers ‘when you set this unit up’, which happens in the ‘Deploy Armies’ step.
After Deployment: These rules, which also include wordings such as ‘after both sides have deployed’, ‘after both sides have finished deploying’ etc. happen in the ‘Resolve Pre-Battle Abilities’ step. The Lord of Deceit Warlord Trait (see Codex: Space Marines) is an example of just such a rule. After all of these rules have been resolved, the players move onto the ‘Begin the Battle’ step, and the first battle round begins (triggering any rules that are used ‘when the first battle round begins’).

So the two abilities:

Strike Swiftly
At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins, INFANTRY units with this tenet that start the battle wholly within your deployment zone can make a Normal Move of up to 6". They cannot end this move within 9" of the enemy deployment zone or any enemy models.

Ambushing Predators
At the start of the first battle round, models in this unit can make a Normal Move of up to 7". They cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models.

I think these are both Step 12 abilities and you would be entitled to order them as Strike Swiftly and then Ambushing Predators which is what you need.

My understanding of it is that if you had 3 units of Kroot, that would be 6 pre game moves in total, so your opponent would be entitled (and would have to if they had them) to weave in 5 of their own pre game moves or pre game redeploys, but I could be wrong on this.

And to cap off this post...
"Yes you can do this and it isn't even that broken compared to World Eaters who can pre game move 11" compared to 13" but they are delivering hulking melee machines not puny bird people."

**BorderCountess**

Do Kroot even get Sept tenets?

**AndrewC**

Good catch, no they don't. Tau Auxiliary units do not gain or prevent units from gaining Tenets.

**EightFoldPath**

Good spot Manfred, I missed that.