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OK, so the codex says he's a "steed"  However, it doesn't say he's a "demonic steed", or he get's any movement bonuses (D.Speed, counts as calvary, etc).

So, question of mine is, can a model equipped with a Juggernaut blood rage?

It adds no movement bonus, so he is still affected by Blood Rage.

funny you ask,i just played a guy who was using one this saturday.
Aaaaaand i dont remember him moving around on 12.Blood rage did affect him though

That' kind of what I was thinking, but I saw different opinions floating around.

Actually a Lt. on a Jugg is a pretty good deal, because I have been considering a Lord with the same demonic gifts..

Yeah its lame but it only moves as infantry. I say lame because it says steed which makes it confusing. Why say it? Why not just say its a mount or something with less implication?

Because a 'steed' has a defined meaning in Codex Chaos Space Marines on page 16.

Well now wait a second.

Jugger rules state it is a Steed which is defined on page 16.. GW FAQ states it is a Daemonic Steed but uses it's own special rules rather than the generic D. Steed rules in the main armory. Page 264 of the BBoR states any model with a Daemonic Steed moves as Calvary and makes no distinction between the two.


So as of 4th edition it IS allowing the model to move as calvary no? Of course that is unless it is specifically mentioned as something different in their description like the Disc of Tzeentch's D. Flight and the Steed of Slaanesh's D. Speed.

While the BGB might state that if it is a deamonic steed it uses these rules, the FAQ points out it has its own rules. You use those rules. They mainly put that so you can't buy a juggernaught and a steed, or deamonic speed. It's confusing, no doubt, but it isn't going to change the way the jugger works, because he doesn't use the normal deamonic steed rules in the first place.

Not quite, DIG.

From the FAQ:

"Although Juggernauts, Disks of Tzeentch, and Steeds of Slaanesh are Daemonic steeds, they use their own special rules, not the rules for Daemonic Steeds."

Apparently, the Chaos Codex is case sensitive, Daemonic steeds != Daemonic Steeds.


Juggernauts are not cavalry, as cavalry is not included in their own special rules. Nor are they Calvary, as they have no relation to Golgotha.

It's confusing, no doubt, but it isn't going to change the way the jugger works, because he doesn't use the normal deamonic steed rules in the first place.

But again there is no RAW distinction between the different types of Daemonic Steeds on pg 264. It just states 'daemonic steed'. It would 'seem' that regardless if the jugger does or does not use the normal D. steed rules it is still considered a D. steed and as such should be considered calvary by the RAW. The changes in the 4th ed FAQ and the 4th edition rulebook would support it.

Page 16 says no other movement modes can be used except by those allowed by the mount. Ok, but now according to the 4th ed rulebook a daemonic steed is treated as calvary by default making the movement of "calvary" now allowed by any daemonic steed.

yes, this is shady as hell but it seems to be the new RAW of it.

Let me reiterate,

The FAQ says that Juggernauts do not use the rules for Daemonic Steeds, but instead use their own special rules.

Its does not say that Juggernauts do not use the rules for Daemonic Steeds in the Chaos Codex, it says that they do not use the rules for Daemonic Steeds, period. This would include those in the BGB, by RAW.

 

Simply put:

Is cavalry a rule for Daemonic Steeds? Yes, therefore the Juggernaut does not use it.

I can see that and I agree with that.

But again there is no distinction between the two. It's not clearly defined either way. The Faq says they are daemonic steeds but the faq then says they use their own rules so... they are but then they aren't so why even mention that they are? Pointless wording? Or is it so they are labelled as daemonic steeds for pg 264? There is no way to tell. Each mention of Steed, 'Daemonic Steed' or 'Daemonic steed' all seem to equate to "Daemonic Steed".

Posted by DaIronGob on 06/29/2006 12:39 PM
But again there is no distinction between the two

And since there is no distinction, it applies to both. Problem solved.

Ah yes yes. I see that too.

Then why (other than GW being typical GW) would they even mention that the Jugger, Disc or SoSlaanesh are 'daemonic steeds' in the first place? I mean they don't use any of the rules so it's pointless.

Because they're a 'daemonic steed' in the fluff but not a 'Daemonic Steed' in the rules.

Those bastiches need to quit with adding fluff in the rules description. ;-)

This isn't that complicated.. The FAQ makes this distinction CLEAR

Insightful, I can totally understand your point as to how it relates to the discussion.