Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have by now watched about three dozen 30K battle reports on Youtube and never seen a single one including forces which include mixed Legion armies. Why is this the case?

30K is supposed to be more narrative driven and the lore has examples of such forces (e.g.: Ultramarines (Destroyer Company) and Night Lords) fighting together. The Ultramarines in that example have even darkened their armour to not cramp the style of the Night Lords which is a very neat detail. As a result in essence you can come with anything you like. There is also the possibility to adjust the paintjob of the secondary army to create an unique and coherent force.

Locally most people have a favourite Legion and stick with it - I play Iron Hands but have a Wolves Black Watch detachment I use occasionally, or Mechanicum allies (and I'm considering some Blood Angel allies for jump / fast attack).

Because people largely pick one army to play.

Just because Heresy is a narrative-heavy system doesn't mean everyone is doing the exact same story for Their Dudes as you are doing for Your Dudes. The Legions largely fought in the company of their own and even if there were multiple Legion forces deployed to a theatre they often kept to their own agendas or operations because trust in their "brothers" was unsurprisingly at an all-time low.

IIRC theres currently no rules for shattered legions or blackshields, so that somewhat limits the potential.

chaos0xomega wrote:
IIRC theres currently no rules for shattered legions or blackshields, so that somewhat limits the potential.

Isn´t there an allies matrix in the core game? This would be sufficient to get a project going.

 Strg Alt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
IIRC theres currently no rules for shattered legions or blackshields, so that somewhat limits the potential.

Isn´t there an allies matrix in the core game? This would be sufficient to get a project going.

That gets tricky and expensive in terms of points and execution. When it comes to points, if most people have to choose between running a primarch vs running an allied detachment of different colored marines.. they're going to run the primarch. Execution wise the options are limited. World Eaters and Word Bearers spent a bunch of time together and seemed to have gotten on well legion wise. Angron and Lorgar seem to have liked eachother, Kharn and Argel Tal were good buddies, so on and so forth. Yet on the matrix they're "distrusted allies" and both the Berserker Assault and Last of the Serrated Sun rites preclude having allies. Meaning that a fluffy WE + WB force is going to give up what makes the WE be WE, box the element of WB most likely to participate with the WE due to bromance.

And I think that's a very big problem, the matrix doesn't make any sense. IH and EC are Sworn Brothers despite that getting thrown out in the dropsite massacre at the onset of the heresy. So you can argue it's fluffy.. But I feel that, if you showed up to a game with IH shooty elements and EC assault elements, you may not make any friends.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
IIRC theres currently no rules for shattered legions or blackshields, so that somewhat limits the potential.

Isn´t there an allies matrix in the core game? This would be sufficient to get a project going.

That gets tricky and expensive in terms of points and execution. When it comes to points, if most people have to choose between running a primarch vs running an allied detachment of different colored marines.. they're going to run the primarch. Execution wise the options are limited. World Eaters and Word Bearers spent a bunch of time together and seemed to have gotten on well legion wise. Angron and Lorgar seem to have liked eachother, Kharn and Argel Tal were good buddies, so on and so forth. Yet on the matrix they're "distrusted allies" and both the Berserker Assault and Last of the Serrated Sun rites preclude having allies. Meaning that a fluffy WE + WB force is going to give up what makes the WE be WE, box the element of WB most likely to participate with the WE due to bromance.

And I think that's a very big problem, the matrix doesn't make any sense. IH and EC are Sworn Brothers despite that getting thrown out in the dropsite massacre at the onset of the heresy. So you can argue it's fluffy.. But I feel that, if you showed up to a game with IH shooty elements and EC assault elements, you may not make any friends.

The fact that the T-Sons don't have White Scars is a fething shame, and that their literally only Sron Brothers is Loyalist T-sons with Custodes and SoS is just depressing. Like, i get they weren't well liked but surely the White Scars and maybe the BA's could be on the list?

This sounds like a job for multiplayer games. That way there'll actually be different minds behind the legions on the table, inviting much better narrative opportunity.

Legions Imperialis fits what the OP is looking for as all Legion Detachments can have different designations if that is what the player wants.
As far as we know now one player could reasonably play an army in LI with all 18 Legions present.

I intend to pretty much never play mono Legion except in very small battles.

Love the Allies system, gives variety to both painting and playing. Currently working on 3 Legions, EC main, AL/IW Allies.

Shattered Legions would go some way to make this more common.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
IIRC theres currently no rules for shattered legions or blackshields, so that somewhat limits the potential.

Isn´t there an allies matrix in the core game? This would be sufficient to get a project going.

That gets tricky and expensive in terms of points and execution. When it comes to points, if most people have to choose between running a primarch vs running an allied detachment of different colored marines.. they're going to run the primarch. Execution wise the options are limited. World Eaters and Word Bearers spent a bunch of time together and seemed to have gotten on well legion wise. Angron and Lorgar seem to have liked eachother, Kharn and Argel Tal were good buddies, so on and so forth. Yet on the matrix they're "distrusted allies" and both the Berserker Assault and Last of the Serrated Sun rites preclude having allies. Meaning that a fluffy WE + WB force is going to give up what makes the WE be WE, box the element of WB most likely to participate with the WE due to bromance.

And I think that's a very big problem, the matrix doesn't make any sense. IH and EC are Sworn Brothers despite that getting thrown out in the dropsite massacre at the onset of the heresy. So you can argue it's fluffy.. But I feel that, if you showed up to a game with IH shooty elements and EC assault elements, you may not make any friends.

I haven´t delved too deep into the matrix (no pun intended) but isn´t it supposed to show relationships before the Horus Heresy? When you then stick to the lore those mixed Legions would battle aliens (not present in the game) or planetary militia who needs to be pounded into compliance. This may not work for many players as there are very few militia armies around but this may change at the end of the year.

Obviously at first glance it would stretch the limits of imagination when IH & EC form teams after Isstvan V although this could be interpreted as loyal elements who have been fighting together far, far away from the occurrences of the dropsite massacre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cebalrai wrote:
This sounds like a job for multiplayer games. That way there'll actually be different minds behind the legions on the table, inviting much better narrative opportunity.

In my experience this is a good idea when younger players are involved (pupils or university students) who have ample time and therefore zero issues agreeing on a day to have a battle. Adults on the other hand...not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 westiebestie wrote:
I intend to pretty much never play mono Legion except in very small battles.

Love the Allies system, gives variety to both painting and playing. Currently working on 3 Legions, EC main, AL/IW Allies.

Shattered Legions would go some way to make this more common.

I have been wondering which Legion I could add to my Iron Hands as a secondary force irrespective of the boons the allies matrix provides. Main point is here to have a good painting experience with the other Legion as well and come up with an unique paint scheme in the process. The obvious method in that case would be to give other Legion colours a metallic tint to connect them to the IH. WE could be given a copper paint job as this metal incorporates a red element emphasizing the rage element according to colour theory. And so and so forth.

At this scale of game, if you take it to be a snippet of a larger battle, it would be rare for the camera to happen to focus on an edge where two allied forces are intermingling.

So outside a few exemplary matchups, mixing legions feels closer to list tailoring than narrartive play to me.

I play Loyal 18th and very, very fethed up Slannesh EC, so they don't necessarily have any common ground.

I'd rather ally in Mechanicum or Militia rather than another Legion.

I've played a couple of game where my opponent used mixed legions. But it isn't my thing at all. I don't mind waffling back and forth on loyalist or traitor Sons of Horus depending on my opponent's army. But I don't plan to have anything but Sons of Horus. It can easily feel like cherry picking the stuff from another legion that covers what your legion or army is bad at rather than going for some kind of them. The big exception being my opponents are painting multiple legions and just want to use painted models. So they go mixed with whatever they've painted up.

As for Blackshields, etc. I don't know if there's much rules space for them. While a good portion of what I use are just plastic models with limited kitbashing, I've had far too many games where my Sons of Horus rules basically did nothing. And a few they actually did nothing. And I want to be a tad 'crabs in a bucket' because of it. As bad as that is. I'm going to be awfully sore if Blackshields have more applicable rules that the gnawed bone I got to work with. However, that's a complete me problem.

However, I can't help to wonder if the HH rules writers are doing the same thing I felt back in 7th with the Black Legion of: you have more ally/unit/strongest named character options, so you don't need as good faction rules. Because I can't help to feel that the writers gave the Sons of Horus the most ally options, and then gave them a weaker set of general legion rules because of that. And I don't think a dozen good options equal one great option. Like having a unit good at ranged and melee is ever going to be as worth it compared to a specialist in GW games. They just don't allow flexibly to be worth it, almost ever.

Sorry, for the negativity. Horus Heresy has been brutal to me and my model collection. I like the group I play with, the old-fashioned gentleperson's pace of yesteryear (read: not super competitive) the game fosters and the marine on marine action. But man, does this game like pushing my buttons of things I don't like in miniatures war games.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
I intend to pretty much never play mono Legion except in very small battles.

Love the Allies system, gives variety to both painting and playing. Currently working on 3 Legions, EC main, AL/IW Allies.

Shattered Legions would go some way to make this more common.

I have been wondering which Legion I could add to my Iron Hands as a secondary force irrespective of the boons the allies matrix provides. Main point is here to have a good painting experience with the other Legion as well and come up with an unique paint scheme in the process. The obvious method in that case would be to give other Legion colours a metallic tint to connect them to the IH. WE could be given a copper paint job as this metal incorporates a red element emphasizing the rage element according to colour theory. And so and so forth.

Lore wise Salamanders or Raven Guard, go Shattered Legions.

Looks wise either a tie in with metallics as you say, or a nice contracting colour e.g yellow IF. Loyalist Alpha Legion could look great too and give you an opportunity to play with hues, and perhaps the IH under AL peeling paint trick. In the end choose what you want to paint.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


However, I can't help to wonder if the HH rules writers are doing the same thing I felt back in 7th with the Black Legion of: you have more ally/unit/strongest named character options, so you don't need as good faction rules. Because I can't help to feel that the writers gave the Sons of Horus the most ally options, and then gave them a weaker set of general legion rules because of that. And I don't think a dozen good options equal one great option.

Not to be rude but... What?

SoH unique units, and heroes, are all ace. Their special PA squad is top-tier and the terminators are a strong contended for best legion specific terminators in the game (especially with their legion rules). Speaking of legion rules, the SoH rule also ranges from nice-to-have to incredibly OP, except for in bizarre match ups like Power Fists into tacticals.

Not trying to get off topic, but this is one hell of a hot take.

Back on topic: I think the biggest issue is the allies matrix itself. It shoulders out many widely-known cooperations (WE and WB being the one I'll continually harp on) while lumping together those that make literally zero sense, such as IH and EC. If it's meant to represent feelings pre heresy then it's fething pointless, and if it's meant to show them after the heresy was a known and ongoing event then it's fething bizarre.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


However, I can't help to wonder if the HH rules writers are doing the same thing I felt back in 7th with the Black Legion of: you have more ally/unit/strongest named character options, so you don't need as good faction rules. Because I can't help to feel that the writers gave the Sons of Horus the most ally options, and then gave them a weaker set of general legion rules because of that. And I don't think a dozen good options equal one great option.

Not to be rude but... What?

SoH unique units, and heroes, are all ace. Their special PA squad is top-tier and the terminators are a strong contended for best legion specific terminators in the game (especially with their legion rules). Speaking of legion rules, the SoH rule also ranges from nice-to-have to incredibly OP, except for in bizarre match ups like Power Fists into tacticals.

Not trying to get off topic, but this is one hell of a hot take.

Let me be clear, I'm not sneering at the Sons of Horus specific units, characters or Rites of War. It is the general legion stuff that any unit can get I find weak. Because I see the Sons of Horus as a generalist legion. And I think I see what the rules designers were trying to do. My Sons of Horus often have a legion rule for every phase of the game. But with that, there's no synergy among those rules. And the rules the legion has don't especially feel like the Sons of Horus to me.

Additionally, I'm a tad frustrated in the plastic model options. Which is really what I'm griping about. I don't have Reavers or special SoH characters. Outside of Terminators, I don't have much in the way of melee either. I got some Veterans with banestrike bolters and chainswords, plasma chargers with chainswords (which are great, just WAY too many points) and Tacticals with chain bayonets + Sgt with power something. I'm largely forced to go shooty due to this.

The -1 to opponent's Strength when charging/charged is often of limited use. Sure, it protects from instant death to Strength 8 weapons that one turn, but it also does little versus Strength 6, 7, and 9+. I don't know that Str 5 weapons going Str 4 is that much of a downgrade. Plus, there's also Shred weapons that are fairly common. Most of my fights stagnate into another turn or more where that -1 Strength goes away. I'm not sure why SoH can't just have the -1 while melee without any stipulations.

Death Dealers is a highly restricted Masters of Signals legion reaction. Unless I'm missing something about it. Most enemy units within 12" of something really worth using it are likely to charge or just not shoot to draw the reaction. I'm still a little surprised I've managed to use this thing as much as I have. Not that it has been great, other than once with my heavy bolter marines that neither my opponent nor I expected to spike as much as it did.

The Warlord traits in the Liber are either unreliable or just okay. I've largely moved to using the ones in the campaign book. I have had Chosen of the Dark God fail me the one turn I was in melee. And Armour of Pride gets me into as much trouble (I try to tank hits that I probably shouldn't) as much as it has got me out of. Wolf of Luna is good, but not with Tacticals...not really. I've been liking True Son, because I have been failing too many Pinning checks and fight related Leadership checks by 1 to not. The Psychic stuff is just gravy.

That's what I'm getting at. Death Guard is a common foe in my group. And they feel like they are on easy mode with Heavy weapons. I often joke with Iron Warriors that +1 Strength is just for the first time they shoot, because of the SoH rules. The Imperial Fists advance reaction and the SoH one feel reversed to me.

These rules all feel a little limp, and I can't help thinking it's because SoH can include so many of the other legions as allies is part of the reason.

I just took a look into the Allies matrix. Descriptions says it is based upon sworn oaths of brotherhood from past campaigns prior the Heresy and the overall effect of a Legions reputation whether this may be good/bad. So for example the Salamanders have nine factions with the Sworn Brothers trait whereas the Alpha Legion is known for being distrustful and as such have not a single other faction counted as being Sworn Brothers.

It also contradicts itself as according to the book the battles are supposed to be fought during the Heresy where treacheries have torn former brothers apart. So someone was sleeping on the job while writing this stuff. I also learned that you can include multiple other factions into your force and not just one which is quite nice. It must be hilarious to just field as many different Legion Tactical squads as the force org chart allows.

 Strg Alt wrote:
I just took a look into the Allies matrix. Descriptions says it is based upon sworn oaths of brotherhood from past campaigns prior the Heresy and the overall effect of a Legions reputation whether this may be good/bad. So for example the Salamanders have nine factions with the Sworn Brothers trait whereas the Alpha Legion is known for being distrustful and as such have not a single other faction counted as being Sworn Brothers.

It also contradicts itself as according to the book the battles are supposed to be fought during the Heresy where treacheries have torn former brothers apart. So someone was sleeping on the job while writing this stuff. I also learned that you can include multiple other factions into your force and not just one which is quite nice. It must be hilarious to just field as many different Legion Tactical squads as the force org chart allows.

?
Militia counts as sworn though for them, but not the other way around

 Strg Alt wrote:
It also contradicts itself as according to the book the battles are supposed to be fought during the Heresy where treacheries have torn former brothers apart. So someone was sleeping on the job while writing this stuff.

Not really. The only glaring issues are the IIIrd and Xth. None of the other Legions really had big changes in their attitudes towards each other.

I also learned that you can include multiple other factions into your force and not just one which is quite nice. It must be hilarious to just field as many different Legion Tactical squads as the force org chart allows.

Yeah, that's on purpose. If you wanted, you could take a Legion Primary Detachment, a Knight Lance Detachment, a Mechanicum Allied Detachment, and a Titan in one army provided of course that you had the points to do so.

On the thread topic.

Could be a case of time. Many new players still don't have the army they want due to slow releases. I'm 3rd legion who just happens to be doing a mostly mk6 army, I'm waiting on those assault troops. But once they are done I'm interested in some allied in legions.

On lore.

There are always weirdos and sometimes those weirdos make fun stories. Like Dantioch and Polux. I'd love to do a few units of IH along side my ECs but to do both sides of the alliance.

The loyalist 3rd would be all about repentance along side their striving for perfectionism. Taking on the black arm/silver hands to their paint scheme. The traitor 10th leaning into the techno body horror, following the Emperors children down the surgical augment/techno body horror route. Think Iron hands obliterators. Super fun to explore.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


Let me be clear, I'm not sneering at the Sons of Horus specific units, characters or Rites of War. It is the general legion stuff that any unit can get I find weak. Because I see the Sons of Horus as a generalist legion. And I think I see what the rules designers were trying to do. My Sons of Horus often have a legion rule for every phase of the game. But with that, there's no synergy among those rules. And the rules the legion has don't especially feel like the Sons of Horus to me.

They are a melee legion hiding inside of being a generalist legion. You want to be aggressive and get in peoples faces with them.

Additionally, I'm a tad frustrated in the plastic model options. Which is really what I'm griping about. I don't have Reavers or special SoH characters. Outside of Terminators, I don't have much in the way of melee either. I got some Veterans with banestrike bolters and chainswords, plasma chargers with chainswords (which are great, just WAY too many points) and Tacticals with chain bayonets + Sgt with power something. I'm largely forced to go shooty due to this.

No one really has any plastic options. In order to get the most out of any Legion you need to either get the resin stuff or do conversions.

The -1 to opponent's Strength when charging/charged is often of limited use. Sure, it protects from instant death to Strength 8 weapons that one turn, but it also does little versus Strength 6, 7, and 9+. I don't know that Str 5 weapons going Str 4 is that much of a downgrade. Plus, there's also Shred weapons that are fairly common. Most of my fights stagnate into another turn or more where that -1 Strength goes away. I'm not sure why SoH can't just have the -1 while melee without any stipulations.

S5 going to S4 is a pretty huge downgrade, you go from wounding on 3s to wounding on 4s.

Death Dealers is a highly restricted Masters of Signals legion reaction. Unless I'm missing something about it. Most enemy units within 12" of something really worth using it are likely to charge or just not shoot to draw the reaction. I'm still a little surprised I've managed to use this thing as much as I have. Not that it has been great, other than once with my heavy bolter marines that neither my opponent nor I expected to spike as much as it did.

Its not the best shooting reaction, but it lets guys that otherwise might die get off shots before they cant.

The Warlord traits in the Liber are either unreliable or just okay. I've largely moved to using the ones in the campaign book. I have had Chosen of the Dark God fail me the one turn I was in melee. And Armour of Pride gets me into as much trouble (I try to tank hits that I probably shouldn't) as much as it has got me out of. Wolf of Luna is good, but not with Tacticals...not really. I've been liking True Son, because I have been failing too many Pinning checks and fight related Leadership checks by 1 to not. The Psychic stuff is just gravy.

That's what I'm getting at. Death Guard is a common foe in my group. And they feel like they are on easy mode with Heavy weapons. I often joke with Iron Warriors that +1 Strength is just for the first time they shoot, because of the SoH rules. The Imperial Fists advance reaction and the SoH one feel reversed to me.

These rules all feel a little limp, and I can't help thinking it's because SoH can include so many of the other legions as allies is part of the reason.

All in all your problem seems to be largely that you are locking yourself to using solely whats available in plastic

The alliance chart is anti-fun and deals with the lore too strictly. For example, while the Word Bearers hated the Ultramarines for Monarchia, with Heresy-era Ultramarines and Word Bearers working together, with either traitor Ultramarines or loyal Word Bearers, I can see them getting over their grudge since what started it in the first place would not matter that much. Chaos Ultramarines would see the Word Bearers as enlighteners and would probably do something to make up for Monarchia, while loyalist Word Bearers, while probably still being a bit salty for a bit, would see their traitor brothers as the real enemy and would be willing to look past any bad feelings.

cody.d. wrote:
The loyalist 3rd would be all about repentance along side their striving for perfectionism. Taking on the black arm/silver hands to their paint scheme. The traitor 10th leaning into the techno body horror, following the Emperors children down the surgical augment/techno body horror route. Think Iron hands obliterators. Super fun to explore.

Chaos techno body horror Iron Hands sounds like an awesome concept that I could actually see myself implementing in my own armies. I can see such a force having an aesthetic similar to this:

Agree the alliance chart is anti fun and deals with lore way to strictly.

Little biased here but take the Dark Angels and Space Wolves relationships. The lore has mellowed it over the years to the point is more of a rivalry than being hostile to each other both pre Hersey and through to 40K and the chart only allows then to ally when “commanded to”. I think fellow warriors or distrusted allies would suit the current lore better.

Further I would have made the Raven Guard and Dark Angels distrusted allies which would suit the friction between then during the El Johnson crusade of extermination.

Plenty of others don’t add up so we have ignored it if playing a particular campaign

the allies chart seems prime material to customise for any campaigns

I'm a sucker for mixing forces and I've recently wanted to add a Space Wolves contingent to my growing Raven Guard army. Unfortunately, I missed the old Mk3 kit, so I'll have to wait for the new kit to arrive before I can make myself some grey slayers/stalkers. Knowing my luck, though, Forgeworld will remove the slayers kits as soon as the Mk3 kit arrives, due to the sergeant torso no longer working with it...

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


However, I can't help to wonder if the HH rules writers are doing the same thing I felt back in 7th with the Black Legion of: you have more ally/unit/strongest named character options, so you don't need as good faction rules. Because I can't help to feel that the writers gave the Sons of Horus the most ally options, and then gave them a weaker set of general legion rules because of that. And I don't think a dozen good options equal one great option.

Not to be rude but... What?

SoH unique units, and heroes, are all ace. Their special PA squad is top-tier and the terminators are a strong contended for best legion specific terminators in the game (especially with their legion rules). Speaking of legion rules, the SoH rule also ranges from nice-to-have to incredibly OP, except for in bizarre match ups like Power Fists into tacticals.

Not trying to get off topic, but this is one hell of a hot take.

Additionally, I'm a tad frustrated in the plastic model options. Which is really what I'm griping about. I don't have Reavers or special SoH characters. Outside of Terminators, I don't have much in the way of melee either. I got some Veterans with banestrike bolters and chainswords, plasma chargers with chainswords (which are great, just WAY too many points) and Tacticals with chain bayonets + Sgt with power something. I'm largely forced to go shooty due to this.

you're not going to get them. The plastic stuff will all be generalist. Faction exclusive stuff will, for now at least, always be resin, yes we have a plastic Fafinir Rann plasitc Zephon, Ahriman and gregor felhand, but they're basicly special case models and not something I'd wanna count on.