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How do!

So here’s what I think is a bit of a poser. And as the title suggests, it’s to do with the Returned (loyalist) Primarchs. And how their mere galactic presence might’ve shaken things up.

And I don’t mean their tactical acumen or strength of arm. Those things are worth discussing but not in this thread. Oh no. I’m asking you to consider the simple fact that The Imperium now has two might-as-well-be Demi-Gods returned to its ranks. And how, in particular, the forces of Chaos might react.

Now, I’ll freely accept that Veterans of the Long War. Those lucky few who not only turned their coat during the Heresy, but not only survived it, but by hook or by crook survived it into the modern 40K era? Probably not going to especially awed. They walked with their own Primarch. They defied The Emperor himself and lived to tell the tale. But one still suspect there’d be certain panic and concern seeing such a being in full vengeance mode going, well, full vengeance mode. At least the first time in a longtime.

But it’s the more recent turncoats I’m interested in here. To most Astartes, the Primarchs are legends. And very, very few will have clapped eyes on one, let alone stood against one. And when you’re a genhanced killing machine that’s broken your programming and indoctrination, developing a sense of self-worth and self-preservation? How do you react to such beings slaughtering your mates, and orchestrating you and your allies into distinctly unfavourable engagements?

Whether you have sympathy for renegades in the setting (and there’s plenty reason to have such), they are kind of Classic Bullies. Bigger, stronger, and have never really met a physical match let alone a physical and martial superior. What would it do to your psyche to see An Actual Proper Primarch cut their way across the battlefield, barely touched by the best warriors on your side, let alone activate Plot Armour and give your biggest and best a proper good head stomping without breaking a sweat? What would it feel like to be outsmarted when for most of your existence you, your friends and your leader have been The Smartest Person In The Room? How do you maintain morale? How do you fight off fear and existential dread that not only are you a gnat to them, but your mere existence has offended them?

How might that affect the cohesion and effectiveness of renegade Astartes?

And I’ll admit my language here has been florid, and my examples and suppositions extreme. But that’s for Thread Flavour only. The bait on this narrative hook. So please do your best to address the question, not how it was posed

I'm not sure it really changes all that much for a random recently-renegade warband.

At least initially, a lot of them might simply not believe the stories of the primarchs returning; especially so close together. It definitely sounds like the sort of propaganda the imperium might use to intimidate enemies, bolster morale, etc.

Those who do believe are unlikely to run up against the primarchs directly. Maybe they have to contend with an Indomnitus Crusade fleet, but that's ultimately just a large concentration of force that you're better off avoiding. Same as any other major concentration of imperial forces, albeit with Guilliman's strategic thinking distantly guiding it. But you're probably dealing with mortals; not primarchs directly. And that's par for the renegade course.

As for the fresh renegades who do believe the primarchs have returned and do end up literally on the same battlefield as them... Well, I don't think this part of your post is really accurate:

Bigger, stronger, and have never really met a physical match let alone a physical and martial superior.

Marines are very big and very tough and very skilled, but they've run into orks that are stronger than them and eldar who are faster than them and daemons that don't die when you'd expect them to. Being on the battlefield with a primarch is a bad time, but primarchs wear armor and block attacks for a reason, and they only move so fast. If you have to fight them, you treat them like any other fast, strong, tough threat with a preference for melee. If you don't have to fight them, you plan around avoiding and delaying them as much as possible.

In other words, marines see weird stuff all the time including creatures out of myth (daemons, xenos). A primarch is just an especially unpleasant one to face the same way facing a daemon prince would be.

My thoughts too, if they've come across a Greater Daemon (which granted not all will have), I can't see a primarch being more awe inspiring.

One could argue that seeing your genetic forebearer return might cause some issues but at the same time it's just as likely to weaken lingering doubts and strengthen hatreds.

Why couldn't they have returned at our Chapter's darkest hour? Where have they been for ten thousand years while we have bled for an uncaring Imperium?

That sort of thing.

And on the other end of things, having Guilliman show back up after your UM successor chapter went rogue probably doesn't change anything. You probably already felt crummy about your newfound circumstances. Feeling extra crummy now that dad is home probably doesn't change much.

For the average citizen not much will change. But it does mean that every bit of mythology handed down from generations and sometimes seen as pure fiction may now be accepted as fact by many more.
Regardless of if it is truth or not

Dai wrote:
My thoughts too, if they've come across a Greater Daemon (which granted not all will have), I can't see a primarch being more awe inspiring.

Yeah, I agree with this. Individual reactions will vary, but a Primarch isn't going to be more "mind bending" than many of the horrors that are already out and about in the galaxy.

I chuckle at the idea that a CSM's reaction might be "Huh, I thought you'd be taller." though, given the relative sizes of C'tans, Daemon Primarchs, Greater Daemons, various Tyranids, etc.

Or like Escape From New York: "I thought you were dead."

Considering some primarchs are supposedly lost in the warp and or the webway, nothing changes. Some CSM may have encountered them still anyway, so nothing new under the sun for as far as they're concerned, we don't know what they thought if that happened, but it won't be different if the primarch is amongst imperial armies or fooling around the warp.

Probably raise an eyebrow discovering that this one is not dead either, think "what a moron", and carry on rampaging because there's no turning back anyway.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Considering some primarchs are supposedly lost in the warp and or the webway, nothing changes. Some CSM may have encountered them still anyway, so nothing new under the sun for as far as they're concerned, we don't know what they thought if that happened, but it won't be different if the primarch is amongst imperial armies or fooling around the warp.

Probably raise an eyebrow discovering that this one is not dead either, think "what a moron", and carry on rampaging because there's no turning back anyway.

This, not to mention that CSM also have their own primarchs. More of them. So while I doubt any traitor or renegade wants to see Guileman or The Lion on the field of battle opposite then, they’re just as likely to have Angron, Morty, or Fulgrim on their side.

Which is to say extremely unlikely. Few individuals will ever see any of those characters, as despite their omnipresence on the table there’s only one of each in the galaxy. And frankly they’re orders of magnitude more likely to see any of the chaos primarchs given warp fuckery and a lack of concern for holding ground.

A few individuals might reconsider their positions but seeing as how there's pretty much no way back to the fold once you've rebelled (unless you're the Fallen).

Even if having one of the big guys come back makes you rethink your life choices, you aren't going to be welcomed back with open arms. Once you turn your back on the Imperium that's essentially it, you're done, you've charted your course and you're stuck on the outside looking in. Renegexit means Renegexit

So, yeah- I think CSM's either fall in to one of 3 types:
Original Legion- they've been in the warp or Eye for 10,000 years but Warp Spaghetti and they're not old. These guys would absolutely be convinced of their actions, as they knew that Emperor wasn't a God/ loyalty to the legion above Terra, etc. This type would be like "Cool! We get to hunt down the Loyalist primarchs!"

Drank the Kaos Koolaid: Rebelled for power/ saw absurdity of Imperium/ got corrupted. Goes without saying, these guys just want to murder any/ every thing.

And last but not least, the "Well, crap- now what?": These guys don't want to be in the Imperium, but only went to Chaos marines (or just against Imperium) for their own reasons. Ashen Claws/ the Fallen fit this category and though there may be a few individuals who wonder if they can get clemency, these will most likely go through the Deathwatch's Black Shields program. Mostly, these guys come off as apathetic to what the Imperium wants, so they wouldn't react much.

I wouldn't expect much change for a Chaos Space Marine of any age. They run into Greater Daemons in the Eye, or the Maelstrom etc already. They make deals with Abaddon. They give Kharn a wide berth. They trade progenoids with Fabius so neither the age nor power of a loyalist primarch is likely to mean much to them without some sort of direct relationship like Kor Phaeron and Guilliman, or Acerbus and the Lion. Truth be told, I'm more interested in the Returned Primarchs (From both factions) on their own faction(s). What do all the returned Primarchs mean for Abaddon? Their own "First Captains"?

 Corennus wrote:
For the average citizen not much will change. But it does mean that every bit of mythology handed down from generations and sometimes seen as pure fiction may now be accepted as fact by many more.
Regardless of if it is truth or not

There’s an old clip somewhere from a 40K game book that states that on some worlds the entire population devote their lives to the worship of the emperor and on other works people just pay lip service to the religion but are essentially atheist in their daily lives.

For the former I expect that the return of RG and LEJ is earth shattering and like the second coming. Possibly they have been whipped up into a frenzy and sent out to die in war zones.

For the latter I expect they say ‘oh yes isn’t that amazing’ but probably think it’s a load of rubbish propaganda. Most imperial citizens have only heard of space marines from stories and have no idea if they are real until the drop pods land