TWC vs C'tan

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**Amanax**

Been getting a ton of mixed answers just googling this one so thought I would bring the question here to settle the debate (at least for our local group)

I would think this should be fairly straight forward: TWC vs C'tan how much damage does the TWC do?.

Rules in question are "Ferocious Charge" from the thunder wolf cavalry which states "Each time this unit makes a Charge move, until the end of the turn, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of melee weapons equipped by models in this unit"

vs the C'tan rule Necrodermis which states "Each time an attack is allocated to this model, halve the Damage characteristic of that attack"

As far as I can tell the two arguments are as follows:

The TWC do 1 damage to the C'tan. The TWC addition happens when they charge, bringing them up to 2 and then when the attack is allocated they are reduced back down to 1. The main rulebook rule doesn't apply because it is used for competing timings, which this isn't.

vs

The TWC do 2 damage due to the main rulebook rule for modifiers are cumulative and should be applied in the following order: Divide, multiply, add, then subtract and finally round up. Believe that this rule does apply because they believe despite the wording, these values are always looked at in the moment and thus always create a conflict in timing and should apply the main rulebook rule.

I have hopefully presented both sides well enough for some help on the judgement. I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts!

~ Edit ~
I have since been told about the melta ruling for LVO applying the bonus melta damage after any halving or setting of damage takes place.
It is discussed here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/811028.page#11574269
and the actual FAQ is found here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/1NV4tZdElUC9z7KPTqFfisP5e-qOj0lb4/edit?filetype=msexcel

I believe this ruling is what is being applied to the TWC do 2 damage logic.

**Bilge Rat**

I agree with the first interpretation. The damage characteristic has already been increased to 2 when the unit made the charge move, and will remain at that value until the end of the turn. When the attack is allocated, the necrodermis will see a damage characteristic of 2 and halve it.

**IloveIceTea**

I agree with Bilge Rat.

**Djbillson**

To add to OP (as I'm the one raising the question with him). When does the damage modifier take place I think is what we are trying to pin point.
Core rules says step 1 - Roll to hit, step 2 - Roll to wound, Step 3 - Allocate wounds, Step 4 - Saving throws, Step 5 - Inflict damage.
So do TWC go damage 2 right after they make a charge move, or during step 5.
The LVO FAQ says for abilities that make something damage 0, the melta rule would be a modifier so you would still get Melta X damage vs something that made you damage 0 because of the inflict damage step, and the ways modifiers go in an order of operation. So we see two ways to rule this.
1. You become damage 2 after the charge, during the C'tan step 3 we go from damage 2 to damage 1
2 We stay damage 1, during step 3 our damages does to .5 rounded back up to 1. Then during step 5 we go from damage 1 to 2.

**alextroy**

I humbly submit that the correct answer is 2.

MODIFIERS
Modifiers are rules that change a numerical value from one value to another. This can include the result of a dice roll, the characteristics of a model, and more. This section details how to apply modifiers in your games. In all cases:
1. All modifiers are cumulative.
2. If a rule instructs you to change or replace one characteristic with a specified value, change the relevant characteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers that apply from other rules (if any) to the new value.
3. You must then apply division modifiers before applying multiplication modifiers, before applying addition and then subtraction modifiers.
4. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers.

Example 1: A model is under the effects of two abilities, one instructing the controlling player to ‘double the Attacks characteristic of its melee weapons’ and the other saying ‘add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of its melee weapons.’ These two modifiers (x2 and +1) are cumulative and applied concurrently. If that model had a melee weapon with an unmodified Attacks characteristic of 3, then after the modifiers are applied, this would become 7 (3x2=6, then 6+1=7).

Example 2a: An Ancient is leading a unit of Intercessors (Objective Control = 2). The unit is within Engagement Range of a unit of Rippers whose Chitinous Horrors ability states ‘While an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of this unit, halve the Objective Control characteristic of models in that enemy unit’. The Ancient has the Astartes Banner ability, which states ‘While this model is leading a unit, add 1 to the Objective Control characteristic of models in that unit’. Division modifiers are applied before addition modifiers, meaning the final modified OC of each Intercessor model in that unit is 2 (2/2=1, then 1+1=2).

Example 2b: The same Intercessor unit from Example 2a becomes Battle-shocked, changing the OC characteristic of its models to 0. This happens before the Chitinous Horrors and Astartes Banner modifiers are applied, meaning the final, modified OC of each Intercessor model in that unit is 1 (2 --> 0, then 0/2 = 0, then 0+1=1).

Now what are the two rules in play here?

Ferocious Charge: Each time this unit makes a Charge move, until the end of the turn, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of melee weapons equipped by models in this unit.

Necrodermis: Each time an attack is allocated to this model, halve the Damage characteristic of that attack.

So the proper application of the rules is (1/2) + 1 = 1.5 (Eample 2a) which is rounded up to 2.

Note there is no "timing" effect for modifiers in 10th Edition 40K. If multiple modifiers are in effect then you apply them all at the same time following the procedure provided. The attacks are not Damage 2 attack because they charged earlier in the turn. They are Damage 1+1 attacks that became Damage (1/2) + 1 when applied to the C'tan.

**IloveIceTea**

The damage characteristic becomes 2 when the wolves make a charge move, which is then halved to 1 by the ctan.

**alextroy**

I refer you to example 2a from the Rules Commentary section on Modifiers. Those modifiers happen at different times but are all still applied in one calculation to get the final result. The same holds true in this example.

**Banbaji**

Modifiers are applied continuously. TWC don't become D2 after making a charge move. They are D1 with a +1 modifier that continuously applies until the end of the turn. That means that as new modifiers are applied (such as halving the damage in OP's example or if something set the number to a specific value), they are reordered (as shown by example 2b from the rules commentary on modifiers).

**MadEdric**

Banbaji wrote:
Modifiers are applied continuously. TWC don't become D2 after making a charge move. They are D1 with a +1 modifier that continuously applies until the end of the turn. That means that as new modifiers are applied (such as halving the damage in OP's example or if something set the number to a specific value), they are reordered (as shown by example 2b from the rules commentary on modifiers).

This is wrong. When they charge, they do not get +1 dmg. Their Dmg characteristic is increased by 1, to 2. There is no dmg modifier, there is a modification to the Dmg characteristic.
Also, the TWC rule specifically states when they make a charge move is when the change happens, not when dmg is applied.

**alextroy**

Your interpretation is not supported by the rules:

Rules Commentary 1.2 wrote:Negative Modifier: A modifier that reduces or worsens a characteristic, dice roll or other rule. See Modifiers.

Positive Modifier: A modifier that improves or makes a characteristic, dice roll or other rule better (see Modifiers).

Based on this, both Ferocious Charge and Necrodermis are modifiers to the Damage Characteristic. They therefore follow the rules for Modifiers.

**spacedwarf**

"Until the end of the turn, add 1 to the characteristic" sounds a lot like a modifier to me. The Rules Commentary section that specifically covers the order of modifiers starts with this:

Modifiers are rules that change a numerical value from one value to another. This can include the result of a dice roll, the characteristics of a model, and more.

I've not found any indication in the rules of modifiers being "set" and no longer being modifiers just because the thing that triggered them didn't happen in this phase.