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Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

 nathan2004 wrote:
Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

I think it's the fact that regular Chaos Warriors and Knights have only a single attack and can't get full plate. They don't "feel" like Chaos Warriors. The list I've been toying with uses a block of Marauders as Core (and using Horsemen and Warhounds to fill it out), then a block Chosen Warriors and some Chosen Knights:

===
Warriros [1997 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Warriors of Chaos
===

++ Characters [802 pts] ++

Sorcerer Lord [365 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Wizard Level 4
- On foot
- Skull of Katam
- Favor of the Gods
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Diabolic Splendour
- Daemonology

Exalted Champion [307 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Daemonic Mount
- Ogre Blade
- Favor of the Gods
- Extra Arm

Aspiring Champion [130 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Mark of Tzeentch
- On foot
- Headsman's Axe
- Favor of the Gods

++ Core Units [502 pts] ++

25 Chaos Marauders [242 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shields
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Marauder Chieftain
- Standard bearer
- Musician

5 Marauder Horsemen [85 pts]
- Flails
- Throwing axes
- Light armour
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Musician

5 Marauder Horsemen [85 pts]
- Flails
- Throwing axes
- Light armour
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Musician

5 Chaos Warhounds [45 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)
- Armoured Hide (1)
- Poisoned Attacks
- Vanguard

5 Chaos Warhounds [45 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)
- Armoured Hide (1)
- Poisoned Attacks
- Vanguard

++ Special Units [693 pts] ++

6 Chosen Chaos Knights [279 pts]
- Lances
- Shields
- Full plate armour
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

16 Chosen Chaos Warriors [414 pts]
- Halberds
- Full plate armour
- Shields
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Champion
- Standard bearer
- War Banner
- Musician

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

I was just starting warriors of tzeentch, never got them to the table, when End Times hit. I was curious about finishing them when TOW came out, but now I'm waiting to see them get a proper release before deciding... precisely because the warriors themselves underwhelm. It's not the heavy armor, a 4+ is respectable in the current meta. It's the single attack with an ensorceled hand weapon. Chaos warriors shouldn't bounce off of state troops, but they're pricey enough that they'll never win on static CRes, yet benign enough that they won't rack up expected CRes from wounds inflicted.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

I think it's the fact that regular Chaos Warriors and Knights have only a single attack and can't get full plate.

FINALLY Saurus Warriors take their rightful place as the best core infantry in the game? BOC!

 RustyNumber wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

I think it's the fact that regular Chaos Warriors and Knights have only a single attack and can't get full plate.

FINALLY Saurus Warriors take their rightful place as the best core infantry in the game? BOC!

Only if you allow Legends...

...which I would.

I don't think they are that bad.

I was thinking about using them as allies for my BoC, but in the end I got Nurgle chaos ogers that I will use as an anvil unit.

Apart from standard warriors, it seems strong. I wish I had an Egrimm van Horstmann mini though...

I hope they include rules for Galrauch in the journal - I've got him floating around somewhere.

Are Galrauch and Egrimm van Horstmann alive during this time period? If so, I too hope we get rules, I loved the van Horstmann book, last fantasy book I read I think.

Yeah Saurus warriors and temple Guard are better than Warriors. Warriors need 2 attacks base to warrant their cost IMO.

I remember 6th-7th WoCH really needed the dragon and Beast/Daemon allies.

With no shooting and rather bad chaff (Hounds and Marauder Horsemen) WoCH on their own were unable to win the chaff battle and who lost the chaff battle lost the game in 6-7th. They really needed the speed and maneuverability of skirmishing Herds, Screamers and Furies.

Without this type of fast-response support they just get outmaneuvered, flanked, march blocked and whether they have +1A and +1Sv or not doesn't really matter at this point.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

They have possibly the nastiest character in the game with their tooled up Chaos Lord on Dragon. They have a lot of reasonably durable infantry/cavalry units in their basic Warriors/Knights and especially their Chosen, fast screens/chaff in Marauders, and some heavy hitters too, like Dragon Ogres and Chosen. Chariots are solid, too. Honestly, they look reasonably strong to me.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

They have possibly the nastiest character in the game with their tooled up Chaos Lord on Dragon. They have a lot of reasonably durable infantry/cavalry units in their basic Warriors/Knights and especially their Chosen, fast screens/chaff in Marauders, and some heavy hitters too, like Dragon Ogres and Chosen. Chariots are solid, too. Honestly, they look reasonably strong to me.

Agreed. They also have pretty good magic. Daemonology is a great lore, and Spell Familiar is a nice cheap item that gives a lvl 4 wizard access to five spells on the list. Depending on the Mark, they also have solid Lore spells and access to +1 to Casting (although I often just stick to Chaos Undivided to save points.)

 nathan2004 wrote:
Are Galrauch and Egrimm van Horstmann alive during this time period? If so, I too hope we get rules, I loved the van Horstmann book, last fantasy book I read I think.

Yeah Saurus warriors and temple Guard are better than Warriors. Warriors need 2 attacks base to warrant their cost IMO.

Galrauch yes, he’s from Aenarion’s time and Liber Chaotica even has him active during the GWAC which would fit TOW’s timeline.

Egrimm no though, he’s from pretty close to contemporary in most versions of his lore (e.g. his successor as Light Patriarch is still in charge during Karl Franz’s reign).

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

They have possibly the nastiest character in the game with their tooled up Chaos Lord on Dragon. They have a lot of reasonably durable infantry/cavalry units in their basic Warriors/Knights and especially their Chosen, fast screens/chaff in Marauders, and some heavy hitters too, like Dragon Ogres and Chosen. Chariots are solid, too. Honestly, they look reasonably strong to me.

Yeah, truly a charachter and a unit of real chaos warriors to compensate for .... lemme check, the namesake infantry sucking?
I'd rather the dragon lord got toned down and for that the infantry working. (or getting rid of the 1 chosen limit but one can dream.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

They have possibly the nastiest character in the game with their tooled up Chaos Lord on Dragon. They have a lot of reasonably durable infantry/cavalry units in their basic Warriors/Knights and especially their Chosen, fast screens/chaff in Marauders, and some heavy hitters too, like Dragon Ogres and Chosen. Chariots are solid, too. Honestly, they look reasonably strong to me.

Yeah, truly a charachter and a unit of real chaos warriors to compensate for .... lemme check, the namesake infantry sucking?
I'd rather the dragon lord got toned down and for that the infantry working. (or getting rid of the 1 chosen limit but one can dream.)

How do Chaos Warriors suck? That's such a ridiculous statement.

WS5 S4 T4 I4 Ld8 with Heavy Armor and Ensorcelled Weapons for 13ppm before upgrades? That's solid.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Haven’t played with them yet but played against them with my Beastmen and really feel like they are missing something. From going from an elite army in 8th to what I feel is an average to maybe above average army, they are nowhere near their 8th version. Really it’s the infantry that bug me, still feels like we’re paying for elite infantry and getting crap. I’m struggling to come up with lists built around a block of regular chaos warriors. Chosen are great but I feel like regular warriors should have been chosen and chosen should be rolling for buffs on a table still.

Subsequently, all my lists have chaos knights filling out core as darts and doing chosen block or monster mash. Wish chariots could be core still, don’t wanna spam them but it was nice when they were.

Anyone else agree?

They have possibly the nastiest character in the game with their tooled up Chaos Lord on Dragon. They have a lot of reasonably durable infantry/cavalry units in their basic Warriors/Knights and especially their Chosen, fast screens/chaff in Marauders, and some heavy hitters too, like Dragon Ogres and Chosen. Chariots are solid, too. Honestly, they look reasonably strong to me.

Yeah, truly a charachter and a unit of real chaos warriors to compensate for .... lemme check, the namesake infantry sucking?
I'd rather the dragon lord got toned down and for that the infantry working. (or getting rid of the 1 chosen limit but one can dream.)

How do Chaos Warriors suck? That's such a ridiculous statement.

WS5 S4 T4 I4 Ld8 with Heavy Armor and Ensorcelled Weapons for 13ppm before upgrades? That's solid.

They seem solid to me, and even if they end up not being so, I won't run a WoC Army without an impressive brick of them. They look rad.

Their stats are pretty impressive, even if A1 is a bit weedy for them.

But they can go toe to toe with any enemy infantry and usually have the combat res in their favour. They’re either faster, stronger or tougher than their foe.

Also remember Rank Static Res is now generally capped at +2, not +3. And so larger blocks of enemy infantry aren’t the challenge they might first appear.

As others have mentioned there are a wide variety of models to choose in the GW range for Warriors of Chaos. Age of Sigmar and Warcry offer a plethora of options for unmarked or marked units.

I think most of the WoC units are right around average in terms of stats/ability per point, but the models are excellent--which is plenty of reason to choose to play them if you feel the same.

Does anyone have any of the new chaos warriors or chosen models ranked up in 30mm squares yet?

^Not yet, I've considered using the new models as chosen to make them stand apart although the aesthetic would be a lot different.

I think giving Warriors Furious Charge would go a long way towards making them worth their weight in points.

A few people have ranked them up on squares now that base sizes have increased with TOW:



Also alternative options than using GW bases:

I managed to fit the new knights on 30x60mm bases though it's a tight fit and they need to go in predetermined places. Not too different from the 7th edition knight kit barely fitting together on 25x50mm bases.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And so larger blocks of enemy infantry aren’t the challenge they might first appear.

Large blocks aren't intended to win combat, they're intended to tarpit numerically inferior elite regiments, deny VP, and satisfy core requirements. Well, that's the theory behind my block of 40 Empire Swordsmen with FC and BSB on board. The 30 Greatswords, on the other hand...Well, that's pretty much what it takes to grind through a tarpit like my Swordsmen.

What's everyone's thought on the Hellcannon...I saw it lost it's ward save, now it has only the 6+ Regen save. How else is it worse than 8th?

Do ya like Misfire Tables? Because it has the chance to roll on 'em twice a turn!

Oh I guess running them in chaos dwarves gives a chance to mitigate that somewhat since you can reroll one artillery dice.

Not really.

One trigger is based off of (admittedly, LD9) a leadership test and if you do roll on the table you take a -1 to the roll, giving you a 1/3 chance of just taking it off the table.

Where does the -1 come from on the table?

Hellbound
... Additionally, once per game, a Hellbound model may re-roll one Scatter dice or one Artillery dice. However, should a Hellbound model ever have to make a roll on a Misfire table, it suffers a -1 modifier to the result.∫

Though now that I am looking at it, Hellcannons don't get Hellbound, you're wanting to use the Sorceror's Infernal Engineer. Though again, one of the Misfire triggers is off of Leadership, so that is just straight rollin' the dice.

If you want the warriors to have 2 attacks you have to pay 2 points more (mark of khorn)

mark of tzeens is nice if the enemy has lots of wizards ( magic resistance 1).
The flaming attacks are not that great even on undeath armys.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:
Hellbound
... Additionally, once per game, a Hellbound model may re-roll one Scatter dice or one Artillery dice. However, should a Hellbound model ever have to make a roll on a Misfire table, it suffers a -1 modifier to the result.∫

Though now that I am looking at it, Hellcannons don't get Hellbound, you're wanting to use the Sorceror's Infernal Engineer. Though again, one of the Misfire triggers is off of Leadership, so that is just straight rollin' the dice.

The Infernal Engineer ability doesn't work either since the Hellcannon is a behemoth(monster) rather than a war machine.

I'm a bit disappointed that they kept the 1 results of many war machine misfires as 'remove this model.' That random 1 roll is too harsh. It's a remnant of some of the previous editions' random tables where some results were over-the-top penalties, such as miscasts. I think it should be the unit suffers d3 wounds.