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Hi guys,
Twerking an EC list to get it down to 2,000 pts for an upcoming game, I found myself thinking about adding ot removing the bayonets from my tactical squads.
I had decided to put some because I'm a collector and painter in the first place, and I equipped my sergeants with phoenix power spears when I modeled them, because it looked cool and it is the special legion wargear. The Emperor's Children are a mainly assault focussed legion, so I thought let's go all in because those guys are very likely to end up in hand to hand combats.
Bayonets are quite cheap, even with 20-40 guys to equip, so I believe the points are easy to find, and a single casualties can means victory or defeat, and in assault that can result in the total destruction of a unit. But... In reality there won't be a lot of tactical squads fightings each other, the opponent is likely to send proper assault troops to you tac squad for example.
I find the chainswords very expensive and at this point, it may be better to simply invest in a true assault unit.
What are your thoughts on this equipment ? Your experience using it or playing against it ?

They’re an odd one.

With Bayonets at 1pt, and Chain Bayonets 2pts, they seem cheap. But when you express Chain Bayonets in particular as a percentage of the base model cost, you gain a very different perspective.

I like them. Chain Bayonets of course grant Shred, allowing us to re-roll failed to-wound rolls. Which I think is near essential. Sure, a Legion Tactical Squad seems unlikely to beat a dedicated combat unit, but those re-rolls can allow the unit to literally punch above its weight. And against nastier units, Bayonet or no Bayonet, that Tactical Squad is likely toast.

But between shooting the enemy and finding out whether or not they like it up ‘em*, I think the points investment is definitely worth it. And you never know, they might just prove decisive if your opponent whiffs his own attacks and falls prey to Rubber Lance Syndrome.

*Its a scientific fact most things do not like it up ‘em.

The question is are melee units regularly going through to your tacs? If yes then bayonets are worth it due to passing significant S threshholds.
So yes bayonets can be usefull and worth it. Otoh if they prohibit another unit in the field 100pts in bayonets is allways worth less than another tac squad.

I broadly think they're not worth it.

The time when tacticals will be charging are extremely rare, so more likely what you've got is 1 attack per model at +1 strength, maybe with shred. Given how combat and engagement range work you're most likely getting 10 > attacks out of the upgrade no matter how many dudes are in the squad. If something's charging it's probably a nasty unit like veterans / legion elites / terminators / WE despoilers they're going to fold like paper regardless of bayonettes. Even if it's a less lethal unit, it's probably a semi-tooled up despoiler or assault squad (10 guys, couple of power weapons, sergeant with a fist / power weapon) that'll still kick their teeth in.

And at that point, buffing the wound value on (at most) 10 WS4 attacks is just not much of a gain. Sure, it might turn a fight if your enemy gets the mythical all 1's on his attacks, but that's so long a shot it's not worth planning on. If you want to improve your tactical's melee performance, wedge up and refuse to pile in, denying the enemy kills and breaking the combat. When it comes to bayonettes the points are better spent on anything else, up to and including just buying more tacticals.

WITH THAT SAID bayonettes look bloody awesome while being both cheap and fluffy, so you best believe all my tacticals have the basic bayonette going for them. Because while it's a fairly bad upgrade, it's also just an aesthetically awesome one.

What about if fighting Solar Auxilia?

 Haighus wrote:
What about if fighting Solar Auxilia?

Considering solar fold like wet paper bags for a multitude of reasons, unless you are talking about vanquisher spam, a normal charge of tacs wipes the floor with solar regardless of pointy metal bit or not.
Though wasting points on bayonets there will make the SA player like you more. Think of it like a golf handicap.

They do add versatility to an otherwise One Trick Pony unit.

With Chain Bayonets in particular (shred are grate!) you may be better off doing a naughty charge rather than standing back and blasting, because S5 re-rolling wounds definitely has an appeal, even if you can’t get the entire unit piled in.

Chain Bayonets on everything. I cannot even recall the high quantities of my buddy's special fancy World Eater squads I've reduced just by some 15+ man tactical marine units catching him off guard.

Eh, if I'm fighting anything with a lick of CQC ability then the Tacs are dead. If my Tacs have been charged by other Tacs then they have failed in their job of "shoot the enemy" and as such can die for all I care.

I don’t think anyone is saying “buy the bayonets and build your strategy around them”.

But looking at my army? I’ve 38 Chain Bayonets and 19 Bayonets in my Tactical Squads as I built them.

For less than 100 points out of my 3,000 preferred game size, that’s three squads that have a little bit more in the way of flexibility.

The sort of flexibility which might allow me to charge a reduced enemy unit, fairly confident I can now chop or stab it into bits, moving me closer to an Objective outside my movement phase.

The sort of flexibility where, depending on how my shootings gone, might just dissuade an enemy assault with a lone unit.

The sort of flexibility where, in extremis, the chances of tipping the final wound or two off a marauding Dreadnought becomes more feasible between the numbers of attacks I can get, and re-rolling failed wounds.

The sort of flexibility where that unit can join a more assault dedicated unit in a crucial charge, and not just be providing my opponent with a bunch of easily killed mooks.

The sort of flexibility where their improved S5, with or without the re-roll, will allow them to go through a normally T3 unit that I’ve recently irradiated like…well…like…a S5 Bayonet through a T2 target.

The sort of flexibility where I may not need dedicated anti-chaff melee units.

The sort of flexibility where a rear charge on an enemy tank might prove surprisingly effective when I’m getting through its armour on a 5+, not a 6+

A chance for each of those units to just do a little bit more in a game. To contribute just a little more of the old Ultra V where a unit without the upgrades can’t.

In short, I can imagine enough niche scenarios, enough situational usefulness to see them being useful in some form or other in most games. They just make the unit better suited to the tumult of the game.

I believe we can sume it up like that :
It's always good to take if you can take them without removing a unit from your army, as tactical squads shouldn't engage dedicated assault units but are totally able and willing to assault and win other units and to take people off guard, once they got that little upgrade allowing them to inflict a few more wounds and getting them above the S5 threshold. Especially if you play an assault oriented legion meaning you will get legion benefits and more opportunities/ screening units (the other, dedicated assault units) and not loose any shooting benefits you could have by playing a shooty legion.
Should work wonder against other tac squad on an objective for example ?

I guess it's different for IW when we have access to Shrapnel Bolters combined with Hammer of Olympia giving us rerolls of 1 to hit.
Same points as a basic stabber but far more useful.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t think anyone is saying “buy the bayonets and build your strategy around them”.

But looking at my army? I’ve 38 Chain Bayonets and 19 Bayonets in my Tactical Squads as I built them.

For less than 100 points out of my 3,000 preferred game size, that’s three squads that have a little bit more in the way of flexibility.

Spoiler:

The sort of flexibility which might allow me to charge a reduced enemy unit, fairly confident I can now chop or stab it into bits, moving me closer to an Objective outside my movement phase.

The sort of flexibility where, depending on how my shootings gone, might just dissuade an enemy assault with a lone unit.

The sort of flexibility where, in extremis, the chances of tipping the final wound or two off a marauding Dreadnought becomes more feasible between the numbers of attacks I can get, and re-rolling failed wounds.

The sort of flexibility where that unit can join a more assault dedicated unit in a crucial charge, and not just be providing my opponent with a bunch of easily killed mooks.

The sort of flexibility where their improved S5, with or without the re-roll, will allow them to go through a normally T3 unit that I’ve recently irradiated like…well…like…a S5 Bayonet through a T2 target.

The sort of flexibility where I may not need dedicated anti-chaff melee units.

The sort of flexibility where a rear charge on an enemy tank might prove surprisingly effective when I’m getting through its armour on a 5+, not a 6+

A chance for each of those units to just do a little bit more in a game. To contribute just a little more of the old Ultra V where a unit without the upgrades can’t.

In short, I can imagine enough niche scenarios, enough situational usefulness to see them being useful in some form or other in most games. They just make the unit better suited to the tumult of the game.

Snip.

I donno. I mean I get what you're saying; I understand it, but I don't think the math checks out.

If you want to have a better chance of taking that last wound or two off a dread? Get your sergeant a fist or melta bombs. A bunch of krak grenades + fist / melta is going to do a better job of taking that final wound off a contemptor (1 s6 auto his with 5+ to wound per model vs 2 attacks {assuming you get the charge} that hit on 5+ and wound on 6+ rerollable; and that's before factoring in the fist / bombs!) for equal or lesser points.

If you want to make a nasty CC unit feel some pain for charging your tacticals, or potentially finish someone off on your own terms, then you should overwatch / just shoot with fury of the legion. If both of those are out for some reason, then you are again going to get more mileage out of a PF sergeant jobbing a terminator or two than some chain bayonets, for potentially less points. Admittedly this is probably the 'worst' case scenario for the first, due to challenges, but quite a few scary squads operate at I1 with fists / hammers of their own.

If you want to take out some light-to-medium armor you are, again, better served by krack grenades; because while that s5 can make you glance on a 5+ / pen on a 6+.. The free krak grenades will let you glance on a 4+ and pen on a 5+. A sicaran doesn't care about a bayonet charge, but 10+ tacs can absolutely strip the last hull point or two off. And that's for free; if you invest in a sergeant with a fist (or melta bombs) that tac squad is usually going to punch an untouched Sicaran's ticket; and can even chip at LRs.

All of the flexibility you're talking about is better served by other upgrades the tactical squad has access to. And yes, it is true that snipers will hard counter your fist sergeant where as bayonet boyz won't care... But if opponent is dedicating his snipers to tactical squad sergeants instead of literally anything else than you've already won or lost the game.

And that's before we sit down and talk about points costs. From what you said, you spend 95 points on bayonets. True, that's not a whole lot. But for 100~ pounts you can get:

A sabre strike tank with a neutron laser.

A dreadnought drop pod.

Several extra terminators.

Several rapiers.

A 5 man HSS with heavy bolters.

All of these will put out substantially more hurt onto any kind of target. They're a better investment, giving you more flexibility and target choice, even if you just use them to menace tacticals on the sidelines.

And if you bump that up to 105 points (let's be real here; who can't strip 10 points out of their list somewhere?) then dropping those bayonet's + scrounging that ten points gets you...

A seeker squad.

A Proteus speeder with two multi-meltas.

A predator tank (assuming you've already got a squadron; the initial one costs 120).

Or even just another entire tactical squad.

Unless you're running a minimum two tactical squads of ten guys each, bayonets (especially chain) absolutely eat into points which could get you significantly more valuable things. And even if you don't wan to use those points on other units, you very literally get more bang for your buck by giving your sergeant a fist / melta bombs over investing in the bayonets

With this said, again: I understand that HH is not a min-max competitive game; hence why all of my tacticals sport bayonets. Because I think they look bloody awesome. But I just want to point out that doing so is always the "wrong" choice from a purely points / efficiency stand point, even though it's absolutely the "right" choice for rule of cool and I 110% encourage you to do it for that reason alone.

 Gert wrote:
I guess it's different for IW when we have access to Shrapnel Bolters combined with Hammer of Olympia giving us rerolls of 1 to hit.
Same points as a basic stabber but far more useful.

IW shrapnel bolters are head and shoulders (+ torso and legs) better than bayonets. Pinning is valuable even into terminators, and being able to constantly force checks with your "weakest" units is amazing. Especially when you can overwatch, unload 80 bolter shots into a charging unit, and then make them roll for pinning after they suffer fairly significant casualties.

For me, it’s not about fitting as many units as I can into a list. Instead, I want to ensure the units I am fielding have a distinct place in a plan, and have at least some capacity to do other stuff.

With regard to Powerfists and/or Meltabombs on the Sarge? Sure. No problem there. Whilst again unlikely to be regularly game winning, they’re still at absolute worse a deterrent, and something for my opponent to worry about when it comes to chancey charges. But for relatively few points, Bayonets extend that to the rest of the unit.

Sure, I could leave my Taccies relatively nude, and spend those points on the things you’ve suggested. But then my Taccies lose their flexibility, becoming largely objective holders, which need someone else around in case of assault.

Plus, the points spent on an extra/single tank will depend on the shape of my wider force. It’s all fine and well squeezing in an extra Predator, or a Sabre or a Landspeeder. But if those aren’t expanding a squadron? They’re not going to last as long as 60 Marines with extra pointy bits. Even then, I can lose those points to a single Lascannon shot or Meltabomb.

With Bayonets, I also gain the option of at least trying to get the drop on your unit. After all, if I’m in your charge reach, you’re most likely in mine (advance and charge type boosts not withstanding of course, hence most likely).

Of course I could stand back and rapid fire, with Fury of the Legion adding that helpful extra shot each. But if I don’t job you all or do significant damage, you’re still able to move closer to my lines or an objective in your turn. If I can get the charge? There’s a not unreasonable chance all those S5 re-rolls are about to do some heavy lifting, and I’ve potentially denied you ground.

And because nothing in the game happens in a vacuum? Other stuff can do some shooting into your unit beforehand, hopefully leaving the Taccies on mop-up duty. Or may have blasted you in previous turns. Or I might be able to send a Contemptor in with them for the Real Damage, the bayonets allowing the Taccies to carry more weight in the ensuing punch up and aren’t just there to prevent enemies allocating attacks to the Contemptor.

Next debate: Combi grenade sergeants?

I think this and the SA discussion have been very interesting. Should be more of it.

I thought about putting combi-GLs on my apothecaries but I didn't want to do the modeling work so I didn't.

Though maybe I should still do it with combi-meltas and just fill in the holes on the melta barrel.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Next debate: Combi grenade sergeants?

Combi nade launcher isn't an bad idea. Pinning on demand or S5 Ap4 ontop of beeing a boltgun. For 5 pts and you can use it constantly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kothra wrote:
I thought about putting combi-GLs on my apothecaries but I didn't want to do the modeling work so I didn't.

Though maybe I should still do it with combi-meltas and just fill in the holes on the melta barrel.

1 Shot with a melta to fill a melta sized hole? Ehhh...

You'd probably be better off with jetbikes with multi meltas or a contemptor with the gravis melta cannon.

Unless you play AL, then you just slap combi meltas galore in a squad of headhunters with a multi melta and shred a primarch,

I meant turning the combi meltas into combi-GLs, since it'll look the part with minimal effort.

 Kothra wrote:
I meant turning the combi meltas into combi-GLs, since it'll look the part with minimal effort.

Ahh...

Afaik Primaris intercessors have an underslung nade launcher that rarely get's used, so maybee you could get a bunch from friends?

Anvil Industry used to sell some nice resin underbarrel grenade launchers that fit boltguns.

I’m definitely stuck in 3rd Ed mode for Combi-Grenade, where you got the one fancy shot per game. S6 AP4 just didn’t do a whole lot of anything, so I’d have endorsed just about any other Combi-Weapon, points allowing.

But for Heresy? I guess it depends.

I’ve modelled my Sergeants with Plasma Pistols on account the MkVI kit alone provides sod all alternative. And to be honest with Plasma losing that tasty AP2 in favour of sometimes being AP2, but not losing the option to cook yourself, I’m not sure I’d field them given a kit choice.

Then again, in other games I have had success with sneaky rear shots from such weapons. Either just plinking off that last Hull Point, or giving a character their Last Rites.

The Combi-Grenade launcher does seem like a fairly natural fit for a Legion Tactical Squad though, as it compliments the rest of the unit’s firepower. A Melta is tempting, but to wreck a tank means the rest of the squad is standing around scratching their arses. They may be cheap per model, but that’s still a sinful wastage outside of the most extreme circumstances.

Whilst the Pinning is too swingy to be something I’d ever like to truly bank on, it is something I think I’d rather have, and rarely have work than go without entirely in this situation.

As noted above and in earlier posts, it’s an addtional shot every turn, at the same range as the Boltguns. And on those occasions it does actually pin someone? Potentially worth its weight in gold, especially against anything Squishy and vaguely horde shaped. Because buying another turn of them not closing on objectives is definitely worth the risk.

To the point that now I think about it? Against pretty much any infantry unit, I’ll lob the Frag over the Krak any day, because S5 AP4 isn’t, by comparison, bringing quite the same to the party as S3, AP6, Blast, Pinning.

Add in my beloved Bayonets, and each squad is now markedly more flexible in its overall potential for a pretty minimal points outlay.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


As noted above and in earlier posts, it’s an addtional shot every turn, at the same range as the Boltguns. And on those occasions it does actually pin someone? Potentially worth its weight in gold, especially against anything Squishy and vaguely horde shaped. Because buying another turn of them not closing on objectives is definitely worth the risk.

If you are thinking horde will become more common, current state of SA makes me assume that you won't see that many games with them....
But yeah, the frag more often than not will do the better job.

I tend to field much the same army regardless of who my opponent might be or what they might field, so I think I’d still go for Combi-Grenade, as essentially giving my unit Pinning is just too good to pass up, particularly as it’s only ever a single test inflicted per firing unit, so shelling out for a specialist Pinning unit doesn’t especially appeal to me.

Yes it’s more likely to work against Solar Auxilia and rabbles, but it can still work against Marines. And for me? It’s the can that counts, not the overall reliability. Certainly when it’s a cheapo upgrade.

Glad I'm not the only one to see the utility of Pinning pot-shots! Tho for me with DG the fleshbane flamer is also a strong contender for that 5 point sergeant slot.

It’s definitely another very situational but sneakily useful tool in the Imperial Issue Swiss Army Combat Blade.

Plus there’s an arguable psychological benefit, where if I get lucky, and pin one enemy unit? My opponent may become overly wary of my other Combi-Grenade Launchers. Because whilst the odds are slim (need to hit, cause an unsaved wound, then get you to fail a Ld test), It Does Not Do To Give The Dice Gods Something To Aim At.

They’re sick, sick puppies those Dice Gods.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s definitely another very situational but sneakily useful tool in the Imperial Issue Swiss Army Combat Blade.

Plus there’s an arguable psychological benefit, where if I get lucky, and pin one enemy unit? My opponent may become overly wary of my other Combi-Grenade Launchers. Because whilst the odds are slim (need to hit, cause an unsaved wound, then get you to fail a Ld test), It Does Not Do To Give The Dice Gods Something To Aim At.

They’re sick, sick puppies those Dice Gods.

Or more realistically, sarges get targeted by snipers, bonus points for the snipers to kill nade launchers.

Well, at the risk of sounding churlish? Snipers would be targeting Sarge more or less regardless of what he’s carrying. And with 24” range, I’ve at least some chance of Sarge influencing the tide of the battle before he gets Harolded.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Or more realistically, sarges get targeted by snipers, bonus points for the snipers to kill nade launchers.

Snipers do indeed counter sarg upgrades on tac squads and stuff, but as I said earlier...

They're tactical squads.

If your enemy us shooting snipers into your tacs, than something has gone horribly wrong or amazingly right, usually everything else being dead or everything else unable to be targeted because of LoS / transports / ect.

Or your opponent needs to reconsider their target priority.