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Hey all,
This idea crossed my mind while painting some chaos marines. Basically, ork clans don’t really segregate themselves into distinct armies, instead a war boss will generally take any boyz who want to follow him regardless of clan. However, the past couple of editions have forced a monoclan paradigm that I don’t think is very fluffy.

So I propose the following: each ork unit can be assigned to a clan just like how chaos units can be given marks.
Some examples would be:
Goffs: +1 S
Bad moons: +1 to ranged attacks
Evil Sunz: +2 M for vehicles
Blood axes: gets cover over 12”
Etc.. (these are just illustrative, I don’t know if they’re exactly the best representation of each clan)
This would replace the army rule.

So a few things here.

While an overall Waagh will consist of multiple (probably all) clans, those clans do kind of tend to clump up and operate together. You can see this in the novel Warboss where we see most of the orks with a knack for going fast working directly under the Speed Freaks big boss, all the Goffs working under the Goff big boss, etc. Yes, the overall Waagh consists of each of those clans, but a given army that you'd see on a 40k table is likely to represent a bunch of orks who hang out together due to shared interests and inclinations. Which would work pretty well as detachments. So sure, the bikes in your mostly-Goffs list might be Evil Sunz/Speed Freaks instead of Goffs, but the detachment on the whole is probably going to have Goff rules, Goff tactics, etc. The current index detachment, for instance, lets you do some pretty Goff-y things.

So with that in mind, I feel like letting each unit in an army choose their preferred tailor-made buff would just kind of lend itself to powering-up/optimizing your units rather than fluffily representing a healthy mix of clans. Like, of course the shoota boyz and flash gitz are going to take the option that makes them shoot better.Of course nobz are going to take the option that makes them either hit harder or be more survivable.

So in practice, you're not going to look at the extra-shooty or extra-punchy bike squad and think, "Oh, those bikes must be goffs/bad moons." You're just going to see an army full of units that took one of the optimal buffs for their unit type.

Given that the index detachment is pretty Goff-y, my expectation is that ork detachments will roughly correspond to the various clans. Which means that a given army will feel like it belong to that detachment's clan or a Waagh where that clan has a lot of influence. Which will make the units that naturally play against type feel more stand-out. So for instance, in a detachment that's obviously made with Blood Axes in mind that gives all your infantry Stealth and unlocks stratagems all about creepin' around and bein' cunnin', the squad of bikes screaming up the middle of the table kicking up dirt are going to feel very Evil Sunz/Speed Freakz in contrast. Whereas that same scenario but the bikes also get +1 to-hit with ranged weapons or whatever is kind of a hat on a hat. And a more clan-agnostic unit like shoota boyz that takes +1 to-hit with ranged attacks is just going to feel like you wanted the extra killy rule. Also, I guess the shoota boyz in that scenario would somehow be implied to be both Bad Moons and Blood Axes given that the detachment is presumably giving them Blood Axe-y buffs and strats.

A better approach for representing a vanilla, mixed-clan force might be to just have a detachment that's kind of broadly orky rather than fitting into one of the clan-specific archetypes. Although maybe "vanilla orks" basically just describes Goffs?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

First, assuming this were to become the army rule, then the detachments would need to represent some other aspect of the orks. In other words, there wouldn’t be a goffs detachment. Things like dread waaghs, grots, freebootaz, speed waaghs etc.. are not explicitly tied to specific clans, and could serve as the basis for detachments.

Secondly, while there are certain specialized units such as Flash Gitz who will usually always want one clan, many ork units are hybrids. A buggy may not always want to go fasta, but might enjoy being tougher or harder to hit. Def dreads could possibly benefit from going faster or hitting harder.

Third, each ork clan heavily filters into their own preferred style, so optimization to benefit from the clans would be fluffy. Having most of your shoota boyz be bad moons is pretty standard in an ork army, and most kommandos should be blood axes, most bikes should be evil suns etc…
I mean, i don’t see why a snakebite would become a loota willingly.

The problem is that allowing the player to pick a bonus rule on a per-unit-basis will result in far too many players picking the best rule for the unit not the rule their army background supports. This leads to overpowered armies and/or units priced based their optimal usage. It leads to a bad game result unless you have a per unit points cost per advantage to punish that optimal usage versus the other options.

There would have to be some restrictions in place. Even chaos cannot field whatever pantheon they like for every unit (ie Khorne hates Slaanesh, Nurgle hates Tzeentch), and one reason for that is that you'd end up with overperforming, potentially gamebreaking combos

 alextroy wrote:
The problem is that allowing the player to pick a bonus rule on a per-unit-basis will result in far too many players picking the best rule for the unit not the rule their army background supports. This leads to overpowered armies and/or units priced based their optimal usage. It leads to a bad game result unless you have a per unit points cost per advantage to punish that optimal usage versus the other options.

But I want people to pick the best clan per unit… that’s the point. Orks don’t work like marine chapters where each chapter is distinct and self contained, a Waaagh is a collection of various clans and each one has a very strong preference for a certain type of warfare. A Goff loota is very atypical, for example, you’d also never really catch an evil sun on foot willingly, and a snakebite flash git is just nonsensical.
A normal Waaagh will have maybe a Goff boss with his Goff nobz, supported by evil Sunz truck boyz, deathskulls lootas, snakebite choppa boyz and some bad moonz flash gitz.

Now, you may be worried about a lack of variety, since clans aren’t all the same thing. So let’s take an example of buggies. The initial reaction would be to give them more speed via Evil Sunz, but making them Goffs could boost their attack power, and making them Bad Moonz could boost their guns. So while evil Sunz may be the main attraction, some other clans could still be relevant.
Or let’s take Nobz. Goff Nobz would be the strongest bruiser types with klaws, Bad Moonz Nobz would all have kustom shootas, Bloodaxe Nobz are maybe harder to hit which helps on flanks, evil Sunz Nobz would all be in a wagon or truck, and snakebites Nobz may be the hardest to kill. If you’re worried about balance then a point cost could be assigned, just like chaos marks since forever.

I just mainly think this would be more fluffy than trying to make entire ork armies be the same clan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
There would have to be some restrictions in place. Even chaos cannot field whatever pantheon they like for every unit (ie Khorne hates Slaanesh, Nurgle hates Tzeentch), and one reason for that is that you'd end up with overperforming, potentially gamebreaking combos

I’m not too familiar with every chaos codex, but I haven’t noticed all that many restrictions when it comes to marks in the older books. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure taking noise marines and berzerkers in the same army has always been possible. Also don’t daemon players lump every god together all the time?

Dandelion wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The problem is that allowing the player to pick a bonus rule on a per-unit-basis will result in far too many players picking the best rule for the unit not the rule their army background supports. This leads to overpowered armies and/or units priced based their optimal usage. It leads to a bad game result unless you have a per unit points cost per advantage to punish that optimal usage versus the other options.

But I want people to pick the best clan per unit… that’s the point. Orks don’t work like marine chapters where each chapter is distinct and self contained, a Waaagh is a collection of various clans and each one has a very strong preference for a certain type of warfare. A Goff loota is very atypical, for example, you’d also never really catch an evil sun on foot willingly, and a snakebite flash git is just nonsensical.
A normal Waaagh will have maybe a Goff boss with his Goff nobz, supported by evil Sunz truck boyz, deathskulls lootas, snakebite choppa boyz and some bad moonz flash gitz.

Now, you may be worried about a lack of variety, since clans aren’t all the same thing. So let’s take an example of buggies. The initial reaction would be to give them more speed via Evil Sunz, but making them Goffs could boost their attack power, and making them Bad Moonz could boost their guns. So while evil Sunz may be the main attraction, some other clans could still be relevant.
Or let’s take Nobz. Goff Nobz would be the strongest bruiser types with klaws, Bad Moonz Nobz would all have kustom shootas, Bloodaxe Nobz are maybe harder to hit which helps on flanks, evil Sunz Nobz would all be in a wagon or truck, and snakebites Nobz may be the hardest to kill. If you’re worried about balance then a point cost could be assigned, just like chaos marks since forever.

I just mainly think this would be more fluffy than trying to make entire ork armies be the same clan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
There would have to be some restrictions in place. Even chaos cannot field whatever pantheon they like for every unit (ie Khorne hates Slaanesh, Nurgle hates Tzeentch), and one reason for that is that you'd end up with overperforming, potentially gamebreaking combos

I’m not too familiar with every chaos codex, but I haven’t noticed all that many restrictions when it comes to marks in the older books. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure taking noise marines and berzerkers in the same army has always been possible. Also don’t daemon players lump every god together all the time?

But if there's a best option for any given unit, why not just bake it in? Why allow for picking wrong?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The problem is that allowing the player to pick a bonus rule on a per-unit-basis will result in far too many players picking the best rule for the unit not the rule their army background supports. This leads to overpowered armies and/or units priced based their optimal usage. It leads to a bad game result unless you have a per unit points cost per advantage to punish that optimal usage versus the other options.

But I want people to pick the best clan per unit… that’s the point. Orks don’t work like marine chapters where each chapter is distinct and self contained, a Waaagh is a collection of various clans and each one has a very strong preference for a certain type of warfare. A Goff loota is very atypical, for example, you’d also never really catch an evil sun on foot willingly, and a snakebite flash git is just nonsensical.
A normal Waaagh will have maybe a Goff boss with his Goff nobz, supported by evil Sunz truck boyz, deathskulls lootas, snakebite choppa boyz and some bad moonz flash gitz.

Now, you may be worried about a lack of variety, since clans aren’t all the same thing. So let’s take an example of buggies. The initial reaction would be to give them more speed via Evil Sunz, but making them Goffs could boost their attack power, and making them Bad Moonz could boost their guns. So while evil Sunz may be the main attraction, some other clans could still be relevant.
Or let’s take Nobz. Goff Nobz would be the strongest bruiser types with klaws, Bad Moonz Nobz would all have kustom shootas, Bloodaxe Nobz are maybe harder to hit which helps on flanks, evil Sunz Nobz would all be in a wagon or truck, and snakebites Nobz may be the hardest to kill. If you’re worried about balance then a point cost could be assigned, just like chaos marks since forever.

I just mainly think this would be more fluffy than trying to make entire ork armies be the same clan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
There would have to be some restrictions in place. Even chaos cannot field whatever pantheon they like for every unit (ie Khorne hates Slaanesh, Nurgle hates Tzeentch), and one reason for that is that you'd end up with overperforming, potentially gamebreaking combos

I’m not too familiar with every chaos codex, but I haven’t noticed all that many restrictions when it comes to marks in the older books. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure taking noise marines and berzerkers in the same army has always been possible. Also don’t daemon players lump every god together all the time?

But if there's a best option for any given unit, why not just bake it in? Why allow for picking wrong?

My first sentence doesn’t seem to convey my idea properly, if you read my examples on the buggies or Nobz I think those illustrate what I’m getting at better.
Basically, each unit will be best served by a subset of clan traits. Shoota boyz would benefit from shooting better or being sneakier or being tougher, but it’s up to the player to decide which they’d rather have. And if one option ends up being more popular, such as 90% of all shoota boyz being bad Moonz because they shoot better, that’s fine because that’s exactly how ork armies operate.

But I want people to pick the best clan per unit… that’s the point.

But if there's a best option for any given unit, why not just bake it in? Why allow for picking wrong?

What JNA said. If your intention is for everyone to pick the obvious best choice for each unit, then you're talking about creating one or two "right" choices and a bunch of "wrong" choices.

Or let’s take Nobz. Goff Nobz would be the strongest bruiser types with klaws, Bad Moonz Nobz would all have kustom shootas, Bloodaxe Nobz are maybe harder to hit which helps on flanks, evil Sunz Nobz would all be in a wagon or truck, and snakebites Nobz may be the hardest to kill.

As I said in a recent marine thread, I'm not against the idea of different-but-equal options for every unit based on subfaction, but it's a lot of work and hard to do well. And if that's a necessary part of your proposal, you probably need to present a bunch of specific pitches for that sort of thing first. Otherwise your proposal is just really vague, hard to picture, possible to do well, but way easier to do poorly, and we can't really comment on it except in the abstract.

If you’re worried about balance then a point cost could be assigned, just like chaos marks since forever.

Do chaos marks cost points? I was under the impression they'd just been a keyword since 8th.

To summarize your proposal as I understand it, you're suggesting:

* We get rid of the current army-wide rule. (Meaning the classic WAAAAGH! rule is no longer a thing?)
* Replace it with like, 5ish different options that are chosen unit by unit and will also generally be intentionally poorly balanced against each other to encourage people to choose the "right" ones.
* Possibly make those 5ish options different for each datasheet based on how you were describing nobz? Meaning you have to come up with/settle on 5 different sets of special rules per datasheet in the ork faction. I think orks have like... 50+ datasheets (not counting named characters), so 250+ special rules.
* Overhaul the likely detachments / what detachments represent. Which in turn presumably means writing 6 custom strats and 3 custom enhancements for each detachment that you want to include.
* And don't forget you'll likely need to tweak each datasheet to account for the optional buffs you want to give everything. Or don't do that and end up with units that are OP and options that feel like non-choices because they're obviously worse than the OP thing.

And the intended end result is for individual units to feel like maybe they're not the same culture as the rest of the army they're a part of even though units will generally already do that by virtue of not fitting into the clan that would have been represented by the detachments GW seems likely to do in the first place? (See my previous point about bikes in a Blood Axe detachment feeling remarkably non-Blood-Axe-esque.)

Not trying to rain on your parade, but you're basically talking about rewriting the entire codex to make this idea happen, and I'm not sure the end result would really be better than the direction GW seems to be going already.

Chaos Marks do not currently cost points.
The only things that cost points in 10th are models and Enhancements.

@Wyldhunt

I’m just going to give a full list of examples because I don’t think I’ve explained it clearly enough. These are not intentionally imbalanced, I just can’t guarantee balance without playtesting.

Clans
Goffs: +1S (they are typically the strongest orks)
Evil Sunz: +2” M to Vehicles (red ones go fasta)
Bad moonz: +1 to ranged attacks (they prefer fighting at range and have the most dakka)
Snakebites: +1 T (they are generally feral and have some grueling initiation rites)
Blood Axes: gain cover over 18” away (they’re sneaky)
Deathskulls: hit rolls and wound rolls of 5 are critical (they’re lucky and have the best loot)

Detachments:
Green tide: infantry units with 10+ models gain sustained hits
Dread Waaagh: walkers become battleline and gain lethal hits on charge
Speed Waaagh: bikes/buggies become battleline and can reroll charges
Freebootaz: ranged attacks gain sustained hits if within 6” of another freeboota unit
Grot revolution: grots cannot be killed

If I had more time I could add more detachments but I hope this helps illustrate the end situation.

So to go back to the nob example, a Goff Nob would want to get stuck in melee due to the S boost, and so would take melee weapons.
A Bad moonz nob would eschew melee for bigger guns and would benefit from the boost to hit.
An evil Sunz nob would not directly benefit, but would be allowed to ride an evil Sunz trukk, and get stuck in faster, or stay shooting in the trukk for a drive by.
A blood axe nob is more survivable at range which could help bullying lone units without getting killed from across the board.
A snakebite nob is just tougher and would want to get stuck in, it won’t kill as much as a Goff but would survive longer.
A deathskulls nob might prefer the kombi weapon to key off the dev wounds more often.

None of this touches the datasheets. It’s literally just like chaos marks. (And I stand corrected, marks no longer cost points but they used to for sure)

Some of these options might be better overall in the case of Nobz, but I think there’s certainly more than just “x is the clan for Nobz”.

My comment earlier about being ok with optimization is that orks kind of optimize in the lore too. A Goff shoota boy is way more rare than a bad moon shoota boy, so a player taking bad moonz shoota boyz led by a Goff boss and his Goff choppa boyz is lore appropriate. A Goff boss leading Goff shoota boyz would actually be rare.
But a blood axe shoota boy or a deathskulls shoota boy would both benefit from their rules. For example, an objective camper boy benefits from cover thanks to blood axes, and a deathskulls shoota boy would hit above its weight class.

Dandelion wrote:
@Wyldhunt

I’m just going to give a full list of examples because I don’t think I’ve explained it clearly enough. These are not intentionally imbalanced, I just can’t guarantee balance without playtesting.

Clans
Goffs: +1S (they are typically the strongest orks)
Evil Sunz: +2” M to Vehicles (red ones go fasta)
Bad moonz: +1 to ranged attacks (they prefer fighting at range and have the most dakka)
Snakebites: +1 T (they are generally feral and have some grueling initiation rites)
Blood Axes: gain cover over 18” away (they’re sneaky)
Deathskulls: hit rolls and wound rolls of 5 are critical (they’re lucky and have the best loot)

Detachments:
Green tide: infantry units with 10+ models gain sustained hits
Dread Waaagh: walkers become battleline and gain lethal hits on charge
Speed Waaagh: bikes/buggies become battleline and can reroll charges
Freebootaz: ranged attacks gain sustained hits if within 6” of another freeboota unit
Grot revolution: grots cannot be killed

If I had more time I could add more detachments but I hope this helps illustrate the end situation.

So to go back to the nob example, a Goff Nob would want to get stuck in melee due to the S boost, and so would take melee weapons.
A Bad moonz nob would eschew melee for bigger guns and would benefit from the boost to hit.
An evil Sunz nob would not directly benefit, but would be allowed to ride an evil Sunz trukk, and get stuck in faster, or stay shooting in the trukk for a drive by.
A blood axe nob is more survivable at range which could help bullying lone units without getting killed from across the board.
A snakebite nob is just tougher and would want to get stuck in, it won’t kill as much as a Goff but would survive longer.
A deathskulls nob might prefer the kombi weapon to key off the dev wounds more often.

None of this touches the datasheets. It’s literally just like chaos marks. (And I stand corrected, marks no longer cost points but they used to for sure)

Some of these options might be better overall in the case of Nobz, but I think there’s certainly more than just “x is the clan for Nobz”.

My comment earlier about being ok with optimization is that orks kind of optimize in the lore too. A Goff shoota boy is way more rare than a bad moon shoota boy, so a player taking bad moonz shoota boyz led by a Goff boss and his Goff choppa boyz is lore appropriate. A Goff boss leading Goff shoota boyz would actually be rare.
But a blood axe shoota boy or a deathskulls shoota boy would both benefit from their rules. For example, an objective camper boy benefits from cover thanks to blood axes, and a deathskulls shoota boy would hit above its weight class.

+1 to-hit with ranged attacks is a good buff... On Space Marines.
On Orks, where Lootas (for example) have a native 6+ BS, and the majority of their units have a 5+ BS, it's absolutely bonkers. That's a near-blanket +50% damage in shooting.

Of course, Lootas specifically will be Deathskulls, not Bad Moons. +1 to-hit on a BS 6+ weapon is worse than having every single 5+ hit, regardless of hit penalties, and if in Freebootas, generating an extra hit. That's not as intuitive, but it's the result.

Some math. Lootas will be either Heavy, but more than 24" away; or within Rapid Fire range, but had to move to get there. Targeting MEQ outside of cover and not on an Objective.



The main takeaway from this math?
A Loota that's taken at their best is three times or more better than a Loota that isn't.
With upgrades not costing points, that's a hell of a gap.

And, of course, the best Lootas aren't Bad Moons too.

Of all the armies? Especially with 10th Ed’s wider army selection rules? Orks don’t need extra rules for theming.

They’re anarchic gatherings of loonies. If I wanted to do a Bad Moon army, I’ll fill it with Lootas, Deff Dredds, Mega Armour, maybe a Gorkanaut or three. With a healthy dollop of Boyz.

I don’t need special rules to encourage that. Maybe change up what’s battle line so I can take more. Maybe allow Goff Boy units to be upgraded to Skarboyz. But no “yellow ones re-roll ones to hit” type stuff.

Maybe give me different secondaries for different Clans to reflect what they value (Evil Suns love speed, so maybe link them to occupying far flung objectives. Goffs score when I get a proper ruck going with multiple combats etc)

But nothing as boring as “these ones are a bit better at shooting, these ones get an extra save”

Dandelion wrote:
@Wyldhunt

I’m just going to give a full list of examples because I don’t think I’ve explained it clearly enough. These are not intentionally imbalanced, I just can’t guarantee balance without playtesting.

Clans
Goffs: +1S (they are typically the strongest orks)
Evil Sunz: +2” M to Vehicles (red ones go fasta)
Bad moonz: +1 to ranged attacks (they prefer fighting at range and have the most dakka)
Snakebites: +1 T (they are generally feral and have some grueling initiation rites)
Blood Axes: gain cover over 18” away (they’re sneaky)
Deathskulls: hit rolls and wound rolls of 5 are critical (they’re lucky and have the best loot)

This example if Klans is exactly the type of bad rules we are all talking about. Every unit will quickly have a best clan decided for it and you will never see a non-best-klan unit on the battlefield.

And before you say that is good, it isn't. All fast units are not Evil Suns. All close combat unit are not Goffs. All shooting units are not Bad Moons. That is not how Orks operate.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
@Wyldhunt

I’m just going to give a full list of examples because I don’t think I’ve explained it clearly enough. These are not intentionally imbalanced, I just can’t guarantee balance without playtesting.

Clans
Goffs: +1S (they are typically the strongest orks)
Evil Sunz: +2” M to Vehicles (red ones go fasta)
Bad moonz: +1 to ranged attacks (they prefer fighting at range and have the most dakka)
Snakebites: +1 T (they are generally feral and have some grueling initiation rites)
Blood Axes: gain cover over 18” away (they’re sneaky)
Deathskulls: hit rolls and wound rolls of 5 are critical (they’re lucky and have the best loot)

Detachments:
Green tide: infantry units with 10+ models gain sustained hits
Dread Waaagh: walkers become battleline and gain lethal hits on charge
Speed Waaagh: bikes/buggies become battleline and can reroll charges
Freebootaz: ranged attacks gain sustained hits if within 6” of another freeboota unit
Grot revolution: grots cannot be killed

If I had more time I could add more detachments but I hope this helps illustrate the end situation.

So to go back to the nob example, a Goff Nob would want to get stuck in melee due to the S boost, and so would take melee weapons.
A Bad moonz nob would eschew melee for bigger guns and would benefit from the boost to hit.
An evil Sunz nob would not directly benefit, but would be allowed to ride an evil Sunz trukk, and get stuck in faster, or stay shooting in the trukk for a drive by.
A blood axe nob is more survivable at range which could help bullying lone units without getting killed from across the board.
A snakebite nob is just tougher and would want to get stuck in, it won’t kill as much as a Goff but would survive longer.
A deathskulls nob might prefer the kombi weapon to key off the dev wounds more often.

None of this touches the datasheets. It’s literally just like chaos marks. (And I stand corrected, marks no longer cost points but they used to for sure)

Some of these options might be better overall in the case of Nobz, but I think there’s certainly more than just “x is the clan for Nobz”.

My comment earlier about being ok with optimization is that orks kind of optimize in the lore too. A Goff shoota boy is way more rare than a bad moon shoota boy, so a player taking bad moonz shoota boyz led by a Goff boss and his Goff choppa boyz is lore appropriate. A Goff boss leading Goff shoota boyz would actually be rare.
But a blood axe shoota boy or a deathskulls shoota boy would both benefit from their rules. For example, an objective camper boy benefits from cover thanks to blood axes, and a deathskulls shoota boy would hit above its weight class.

+1 to-hit with ranged attacks is a good buff... On Space Marines.
On Orks, where Lootas (for example) have a native 6+ BS, and the majority of their units have a 5+ BS, it's absolutely bonkers. That's a near-blanket +50% damage in shooting.

Of course, Lootas specifically will be Deathskulls, not Bad Moons. +1 to-hit on a BS 6+ weapon is worse than having every single 5+ hit, regardless of hit penalties, and if in Freebootas, generating an extra hit. That's not as intuitive, but it's the result.

Some math. Lootas will be either Heavy, but more than 24" away; or within Rapid Fire range, but had to move to get there. Targeting MEQ outside of cover and not on an Objective.

Spoiler:

Goff/Evil Suns/Snakebites/Blood Axe Lootas
2 shots
14/18 or 7/9 hits
35/54 wounds
35/108 failed saves

3 shots
21/36 or 7/12 hits
35/72 wounds
35/144 failed saves

Bad Moons Lootas
2 shots
14/18 or 7/9 hits
35/54 wounds
35/108 failed saves

3 shots
21/18 or 7/6 hits
35/36 wounds
35/72 failed saves

Deathskull Freeboota Lootas
2 shots
14/18 or 7/9 Sustained Hits, for 14/9 hits
70/54 or 35/27 wounds
35/54 failed saves

3 shots
21/18 or 7/6 Sustained Hits, for 14/6 or 7/3 hits
35/18 wounds
35/36 failed saves

The main takeaway from this math?
A Loota that's taken at their best is three times or more better than a Loota that isn't.
With upgrades not costing points, that's a hell of a gap.

And, of course, the best Lootas aren't Bad Moons too.

.

Most lootas are deathskulls in the lore, not bad moonz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
@Wyldhunt

I’m just going to give a full list of examples because I don’t think I’ve explained it clearly enough. These are not intentionally imbalanced, I just can’t guarantee balance without playtesting.

Clans
Goffs: +1S (they are typically the strongest orks)
Evil Sunz: +2” M to Vehicles (red ones go fasta)
Bad moonz: +1 to ranged attacks (they prefer fighting at range and have the most dakka)
Snakebites: +1 T (they are generally feral and have some grueling initiation rites)
Blood Axes: gain cover over 18” away (they’re sneaky)
Deathskulls: hit rolls and wound rolls of 5 are critical (they’re lucky and have the best loot)

This example if Klans is exactly the type of bad rules we are all talking about. Every unit will quickly have a best clan decided for it and you will never see a non-best-klan unit on the battlefield.

And before you say that is good, it isn't. All fast units are not Evil Suns. All close combat unit are not Goffs. All shooting units are not Bad Moons. That is not how Orks operate.

So you’ll never ever take bikes with +1S over faster movement? Or buggies with better aim? Or snakebite boyz for the better toughness. As above, JNA showed that deahskulls lootas are the best over bad moonz lootas so… I just feel you’re not giving a fair shake.

I don’t see anyone complaining that Chaos Havocs don’t really benefit from mark of khorne.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of all the armies? Especially with 10th Ed’s wider army selection rules? Orks don’t need extra rules for theming.

They’re anarchic gatherings of loonies. If I wanted to do a Bad Moon army, I’ll fill it with Lootas, Deff Dredds, Mega Armour, maybe a Gorkanaut or three. With a healthy dollop of Boyz.

I don’t need special rules to encourage that. Maybe change up what’s battle line so I can take more. Maybe allow Goff Boy units to be upgraded to Skarboyz. But no “yellow ones re-roll ones to hit” type stuff.

Maybe give me different secondaries for different Clans to reflect what they value (Evil Suns love speed, so maybe link them to occupying far flung objectives. Goffs score when I get a proper ruck going with multiple combats etc)

But nothing as boring as “these ones are a bit better at shooting, these ones get an extra save”

You call orks an anarchic gathering of loonies, then immediately give a monoclan army as an example. The point of the proposal is to encourage multiple clans in the same army. If you’d like different bonuses that’s fine, since it’s not the actual center of the proposal.


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@ JNA
I’d like to expand my previous comment further. In the lore, most lootas are deathskulls, with the remainder being bad moonz. The other clans just don’t use them all that much, or at all.
Snakebites would never become lootas because they’re feral
Blood axes would not become lootas because they prefer sneaking and stabbing
Evil Sunz lootas would exist only in a trukk or wagon, and if you take an evil suns transport then the passengers must also be evil suns
Goff lootas are also very rare because they vastly prefer close combat.

@Wyldhunt

I’m just going to give a full list of examples because I don’t think I’ve explained it clearly enough. These are not intentionally imbalanced, I just can’t guarantee balance without playtesting.

Clans
Goffs: +1S (they are typically the strongest orks)
Evil Sunz: +2” M to Vehicles (red ones go fasta)
Bad moonz: +1 to ranged attacks (they prefer fighting at range and have the most dakka)
Snakebites: +1 T (they are generally feral and have some grueling initiation rites)
Blood Axes: gain cover over 18” away (they’re sneaky)
Deathskulls: hit rolls and wound rolls of 5 are critical (they’re lucky and have the best loot)

Ok, I see what you're picturing. It still doesn't sit well with me, and I'm trying to figure out why. If I ignore the fluff behind it, you're basically pitching giving every ork unit a "slot" for a piece of "wargear", with the specific wargear options being the clan benefits. In the past, I've liked rules like exarch powers and pivotal roles that basically let you change up how a unit behaves based on the special rule you choose, so I'm trying to figure out what it is that I don't like about this pitch.

I think it's that, where exarch powers and pivotal roles seem designed to emphasize changing how a unit behaves, the way you've presented things here it's more about a raw power boost. Like, as you yourself pointed out, you're not really trying to make these options equally appealing to a given unit. You're basically just giving power boosts to units so that they can do what they were already doing more points-efficiently.

Earlier you said:

A Goff shoota boy is way more rare than a bad moon shoota boy

So I get that your thinking is, "Let's make the shoota boy feel like he's not a goff by giving him an un-goffy buff." But if we flip that on its head, the shoota boy arguably already felt un-goffy by virtue of being a shoota boy. The same way a kommando is going to feel more Blood Axe-y even if he's hanging out with a bunch of Goffs even if he doesn't benefit from your proposed Blood Axe rule. So the end result isn't that this shoota boy is actually a Bad Moon hanging out with Goffs; it's that someone just wanted their shoota boyz to hit harder.

Regarding chaos marks. Back when they cost points and gave benefits, the best versions of chaos marks that I saw in homebrew rules were the ones where the cost of the mark and/or the benefits they gave changed depending on the unit you were applying them to. So either a havoc squad paid fewer points for a Mark of Khorne than a melee unit would, or else the benefits of the Mark of Khorne on a havoc squad would be roughly as beneficial as on a melee squad. (Ex: MoK on a havoc squad might give them some sort of suppression rule or grant units charging the target assault grenades in the following assault phase, etc.) I know 10th doesn't do wargear costs, but I wonder if your idea might lose some of its shine if we were to apply that same approach to your clans proposal. That is, if lootas and shootas marked as Bad Moonz were notably more expensive than ones that weren't, would you still be excited about this proposal? If not, and I absolutely don't mean this as an attack, it might be a sign that your interest is more in the power boost than in the gameplay or lore.

EDIT: Back when chaos marks were paid for and gave benefits on their own, even in non-homebrew stuff, they generally didn't "feel bad" because you knew your opponent had paid for that benefit. If your opponent was tanking more shots than usual, it was because he'd put points into Marks of Nugle instead of extra units/firepower. If your opponent was stabbing you harder in melee, it was because he'd put points into Marks of Khorne instead of more guns. Whereas here, this feels like a free power boost tailored unit-by-unit on top of whatever detachment power boost you get.

Dandelion wrote:

Most lootas are deathskulls in the lore, not bad moonz.

It's not that most lootas are Deathskulls; but rather a disproportionate number of Deathskulls are lootas.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
That is, if lootas and shootas marked as Bad Moonz were notably more expensive than ones that weren't, would you still be excited about this proposal?

Yes, absolutely, hence the comparison to paid for Marks of Chaos. The lack of points in 10th edition is a major gripe I have with it, but I tried to fit the proposal within its framework. Personally, I wouldn’t have “army rules” locked down to one thing only, and instead would just let armies have as many rules as they need. I just thought allowing and encouraging players to embrace multi clan armies would be more fun than locking them into monolithic detachments.

Ultimately, the exact buffs I’m offering were merely illustrative, and I called back upon previous editions where clan traits did pretty much those things.
I’m not familiar with eldar, so if they have rules that are more appropriate then I could use those instead.

My core goal was to try to link ork units to clans directly to allow the fluff to naturally emerge on the table. It would also give greater self expression when building your own army.


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 Lord Damocles wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

Most lootas are deathskulls in the lore, not bad moonz.

It's not that most lootas are Deathskulls; but rather a disproportionate number of Deathskulls are lootas.

Ok, but I feel like that’s splitting hairs. JNA was implying deathskulls lootas being preferred to bad moonz lootas was a flaw in the system.


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Thinking about it I can reframe it as follows:
You can assign a clan tag to any unit for free. This tag does nothing on its own but could limit transport and leader pairings (e.g. a Goff nob can only lead Goff boyz which can only go in a Goff trukk)

But, then players could pay points to unlock Clan Veterans and gain the bonus (+1 S, +1T etc..) that corresponds to their clan. And the cost could vary based on the type of unit.

But, then players could pay points to unlock Clan Veterans and gain the bonus (+1 S, +1T etc..) that corresponds to their clan. And the cost could vary based on the type of unit.

I like this pitch a lot better; mostly because the benefits are paid for with points.

EDIT: Going this route, you could probably leave the army-wide rule as-is. You'd need to swap out the detachments for clan-agnostic ones. Then just have your clan benefits be their own thing that costs points.

I’m not familiar with eldar, so if they have rules that are more appropriate then I could use those instead.

Unfortunately, our exarch powers and pivotal roles were removed during the switch to 10th edition. I'm hoping we get them back in the codex. That said, eldar rules wouldn't do a very good job of representing orks or chaos even with the exarch powers/pivotal roles.

How about: you can pick your units from every Klan but if you mix them you suffer from animosity just like in good old WHFB times