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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think there are too many factions as is, and having a faction that is half in-half out of two other factions, is lazy and boring. Are they tryanids, or Guard? Who knows? Who Cares. I don't think they need to exist as a independent faction. Just make them a sub of Tyranids.

And here's the catch:

In a balanced, competitive wargame designed for stand-alone pick-up gaming, you're probably right.

In a wargame/RPG hybrid designed for narrative-based campaign play, you couldn't be more wrong.

Some people THINK 40k is one or the other.
Some people THINK 40k should be one or the other.
Some people THINK 40k should be both at the same time.
Some people THINK 40k should have multiple modes to best serve the greatest number of preferences.

And the truth is, I could not care less how badly GW screws up their 2k matched play crap.

But leave my fething Crusade alone. Don't just let me keep the factions we've got, but grow them and add more. Because campaign RPG-style play needs a vast sand box.

i'm certainly all for GW adding more factions in the future

 waefre_1 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:

Personally I love the idea of Brood Brothers, though feel it should be catered more around what you generally would see in a planetary defense force. Honestly can never remember what is and is not currently allowed as it has changed by edition and I don't know if the allowances changed with any of the dataslates. From the original 10th index I'd say the only thing I'd add to the ban list would be Baneblades etc, as already most of the elite stuff like Scions are already off the table. On the flip side, something like Preachers would be fluff wise really fun to allow for Brood Brothers, to denote a corrupted priest leading their flock.

I like this idea, but doing this would require explicitly putting forgeworld units into a main codex. As the vast majority of Imperial second line equipment is in FW, namely the Carnodon/Aurox, Malcador, Macharius, earthshakers/medusa batteries, and an few others. Otherwise, you're left with what? Infantry and heavy weapon teams, Chimeras, Russes, sentinels and maybe Basilisks? On the note of baneblades, they could make a flimsier baneblade chassis variant to represent the "Second Generation" baneblades made by forgeworlds without the full industrial capabilities to make a proper baneblade or one to proper quality standards. Obviously, give it to guard as well, but these the GSC could feasibly get from a PDF.

We've already got "Wish.com Baneblades" in the form of Malcador, Macharius, and Rogal Dorn tanks (at least role-wise for the Rogal Dorn, I don't know off the top of my head if the RD is explicitly a budget superheavy the way the Malcador/Macharius are). To be fair, I don't think the IG 'dex does a particularly good job of representing PDF forces. I think we'd need a lot more variety, both in unit type and unit quality, before we could do that (yes, a good number of PDFs are roughly comparable to the tithes that are sent to the Guard, so the 'dex does work, but there would be a lot more stuff in the PDF that's adapted or tuned to local conditions, resource availability, and industrial/technological base - eg, Feral World PDF units might have a handful of Leman Russes, but they might rely more on cavalry or chariots as a baseline and keep the tanks for when the gak truly hits the fan since they'd be so dependent on outside resupply/expertise to perform maintenance and repairs).

Mind, I'd be fine with all the FW stuff (INCLUDING WHAT YOU STOLE FROM US, JAMES WORKSHOP ) in the mainline IG 'dex, though I'm not sure GW would be able or willing to do that correctly (I got the feeling back in 8e/9e that GW as an organization really resented FW's capabilities, and I doubt that's gone away).

I mean, I do agree we don't need second-gen baneblades when we have the Macharius, I'm just positing it as an alternative if GW wants to leave it behind. Also, the Malcador is not a budget super-heavy, but rather a inferior equivalent to the Leman Russ used before it's discovery and then slowly handed down the second and third-line forces as the Leman Russ became more common. The Rogal Dorn... is a complete anomaly. It vaguely fits the same weight class Malcador, but with the firepower of a Macharius. It's very odd, and what descriptions we have make it fit as some sort of super-heavy Crusier tank. A heavier line exploiter to accompany the Leman Russ, apparently being just as fast.

Honestly, i wouldn't be as firm on Brood Brothers if they would fill in the most glaring holes in the GSC line-up, namely armor, long-range ability and anti-tank. All of which they lack as a general rule. The closest is the mining laser, which is a 24" range lascannon, and the Heavy Mining Laser which is just a 36" d3 shot version of the same gun. Melta-equivilent is non-existent, unless you want to consider mining charges. As for armor, the hardiest vehicle we have is the rockgrinder, which is a razorback with +1T & OC, the ability to be crippled, and Grenades. FInally, for range nearly every gun in the army is 26-24", the sole exception being the Truck Autocannons.

It's part of why we struggle in the current 10th metagame, as we just don't have the tools to play in the same realm as the big boys, similar to Sisters and DG, who's motor pools also cap out at T10 bar the Land Raider.

PenitentJake wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think there are too many factions as is, and having a faction that is half in-half out of two other factions, is lazy and boring. Are they tryanids, or Guard? Who knows? Who Cares. I don't think they need to exist as a independent faction. Just make them a sub of Tyranids.

And here's the catch:

In a balanced, competitive wargame designed for stand-alone pick-up gaming, you're probably right.

In a wargame/RPG hybrid designed for narrative-based campaign play, you couldn't be more wrong.

Some people THINK 40k is one or the other.
Some people THINK 40k should be one or the other.
Some people THINK 40k should be both at the same time.
Some people THINK 40k should have multiple modes to best serve the greatest number of preferences.

And the truth is, I could not care less how badly GW screws up their 2k matched play crap.

But leave my Crusade alone. Don't just let me keep the factions we've got, but grow them and add more. Because campaign RPG-style play needs a vast sand box.

StudentOfEtherium wrote:i'm certainly all for GW adding more factions in the future

I like a lot of the wacky little one-off squads that KT is giving us. I think there is a lot of fun room to explore in the 40k 'verse for models and units that don’t need a full codex and army. Splash them into another army for flavor.

Of course, one persons fluffy narrative ally is another person’s min/max metagame nightmare, depending how the rules fall out, so they can get hard to balance. Flashback to some of the abuse of 6/7th, with Taudar and superfriends deathstars. On one hand you have cheese, but the other you have brave guardsmen holding the line against all odds, just about giving up hope when the Emperor’s Angels arrive via deepstrike. Or an inquisitor with his retinue and whatever forces he could scrape up from the sector stopping some end-of-days chaos uprising before it’s too late.

I think we have too many armies but not enough factions. But the ship has sailed on a lot of that, and getting the genie back into the bottle would generate a lot of bad will. In my humble opinions, things like Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Custodes, Imperial Knights, and probably a few others that are slipping my mind are great to have in the game, but should have been kept down to a unit or two that you splashed into another army. But since they’ve fleshed them out and made more non-core units for them, no going back at this point.

On the topic of Brood Brothers and allying guard, I think there should be more of it. Maybe with more restrictions, but more factions. Brood, renegade, PDFs, Tau auxiliaries, and full guard share a lot of the same core units. Humanity, and its war machine, is everywhere. And not all of it is loyal to the Golden Throne. Do we need to have seperate codexes? Detachments enough? How can we get that flavor out there without making one just a better versions then the others? Keep destinct identities, try not to overlap/step on toes.

 Nevelon wrote:

On the topic of Brood Brothers and allying guard, I think there should be more of it. Maybe with more restrictions, but more factions. Brood, renegade, PDFs, Tau auxiliaries, and full guard share a lot of the same core units. Humanity, and its war machine, is everywhere. And not all of it is loyal to the Golden Throne. Do we need to have seperate codexes? Detachments enough? How can we get that flavor out there without making one just a better versions then the others? Keep destinct identities, try not to overlap/step on toes.

Yeah kind of this, like the coremost units can be shared between all groups like infantry squads, russes, sentinels etc, while the more specialized stuff like kasrkin, scions, auxilia could be Guard only. For a most basic Gue'vasa unit really all you need to do is swap out maybe the more distinctly Imperial special weapons (plasma/melta) and replace them with pulse guns as a special weapon/sergeant option.

Then each faction that uses the units could say go along the old Renegades and Heretics method, or the Militia list for Heresy. A true Guard regiment can say pick homeworld type, regiment type, doctrine and kit load to customize how their army is fielded, their specialties, etc. Meanwhile Genestealer Cults can perhaps lean more towards Tyranid/Cult or more towards Guard, giving up a bit of one for the other - probably based on the cult of personality around the Patriarch/Magus of the cult like how the warlord in Renegades and Heretics worked. More focus on mutations and nids might let even jobber infantry get stronger melee due to more claws and teeth in them, or perhaps more access to Genestealers and maybe even a vanguard organism or two like Lictors. On the flip side a cult leader more focused on taking control of the planetary defense force of the planet might get more access to the more exotic Guard tools to use - or maybe piggyback off of the above suggested Guard customization tools but to represent a mere pdf only gets homeworld type and kit loadout to choose from. Enough to customize and play with the stuff you have but not enough to fully steal the limelight.

I think long story short I apparently would like GW to somehow create a combination of some of its most fun lists/codices from the past 24 years and bottle that lightning a second time I guess.

If we are to keep Brood Brothers, I do think the game would be healthier if they were entries within the GSC 'dex, even if the models ended up being IG models with a GSC upgrade sprue.

This allows for them to be (allegedly) costed appropriately within their own army list, as well as to ensure any rules interactions can be constructed with fewer unintended consequences.

What would I include, off-hand? Something along the lines of:
- Infected Commissar
- Infected Priest
- Infected Enginseer
- Brood Brother Command Squad
- Brood Brother (Infantry) Squad
- Brood Brother Chimera
- Brood Brother Heavy Weapon Squad
- Brood Brother Sentinel Squadron
- Brood Brother Scout Sentinel Squadron
- Brood Brother Leman Russ (not sure which variants, though, outside the basic Russ)

I think that range would give you the feel of an infected PDF, without dragging in the majority of another Codex.

 Dysartes wrote:
If we are to keep Brood Brothers, I do think the game would be healthier if they were entries within the GSC 'dex, even if the models ended up being IG models with a GSC upgrade sprue.

This allows for them to be (allegedly) costed appropriately within their own army list, as well as to ensure any rules interactions can be constructed with fewer unintended consequences.

What would I include, off-hand? Something along the lines of:
- Infected Commissar
- Infected Priest
- Infected Enginseer
- Brood Brother Command Squad
- Brood Brother (Infantry) Squad
- Brood Brother Chimera
- Brood Brother Heavy Weapon Squad
- Brood Brother Sentinel Squadron
- Brood Brother Scout Sentinel Squadron
- Brood Brother Leman Russ (not sure which variants, though, outside the basic Russ)

I think that range would give you the feel of an infected PDF, without dragging in the majority of another Codex.

I mean, besides the characters and command squad we had all of those back in 8th edition, and in 7th we had access to the motor pool components. In Psychic Awakening they introduced the ability to take a non-specialist, order-less guard detachment, the idea being that you can take a wider variety of units, but at the cost of certain abilities, strats, etc. not working on them compared to those in the 'dex. In 9th they decided they didn't want to sell the dedicated GSC variant kits besides Brood Bros, so they nuked all of them from the codex and just made the detachment slightly less of a downside, and in 10th they just let you take them as long as you're under the points.

Frankly I think it's just laziness.

 Dysartes wrote:
If we are to keep Brood Brothers, I do think the game would be healthier if they were entries within the GSC 'dex, even if the models ended up being IG models with a GSC upgrade sprue.

This allows for them to be (allegedly) costed appropriately within their own army list, as well as to ensure any rules interactions can be constructed with fewer unintended consequences.

Spoiler:

What would I include, off-hand? Something along the lines of:
- Infected Commissar
- Infected Priest
- Infected Enginseer
- Brood Brother Command Squad
- Brood Brother (Infantry) Squad
- Brood Brother Chimera
- Brood Brother Heavy Weapon Squad
- Brood Brother Sentinel Squadron
- Brood Brother Scout Sentinel Squadron
- Brood Brother Leman Russ (not sure which variants, though, outside the basic Russ)

I think that range would give you the feel of an infected PDF, without dragging in the majority of another Codex.

The only things I would not include are Command Squads and Enginseers.

Command Squads because, frankly, I think the concept does not function well and has not functioned well for some time. It needs to be refocused into being a squad and an officer as separate things or they just need to give Guard something akin to the "Tercio" rule for Solar Auxilia on a Command Squad. It's so stupid that I can plop a Command Squad into another squad right now and that crap needs to stop.

Enginseers because I feel like GSC have shown via the Reductus Saboteur and the Atalan Jackals' Wolfquad that there's room for a non-Mechanicus character with a mechanical aptitude.

ProfSrlojohn wrote:n 9th they decided they didn't want to sell the dedicated GSC variant kits besides Brood Bros, so they nuked all of them from the codex

Minor quibble, but they stopped selling those non-Brood Brother "squad" kits long before 9th. The Armored Claw and Leman Russ "bundles" of the set+sprue came out in 7E.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:

Personally I love the idea of Brood Brothers, though feel it should be catered more around what you generally would see in a planetary defense force. Honestly can never remember what is and is not currently allowed as it has changed by edition and I don't know if the allowances changed with any of the dataslates. From the original 10th index I'd say the only thing I'd add to the ban list would be Baneblades etc, as already most of the elite stuff like Scions are already off the table. On the flip side, something like Preachers would be fluff wise really fun to allow for Brood Brothers, to denote a corrupted priest leading their flock.

I like this idea, but doing this would require explicitly putting forgeworld units into a main codex. As the vast majority of Imperial second line equipment is in FW, namely the Carnodon/Aurox, Malcador, Macharius, earthshakers/medusa batteries, and an few others. Otherwise, you're left with what? Infantry and heavy weapon teams, Chimeras, Russes, sentinels and maybe Basilisks? On the note of baneblades, they could make a flimsier baneblade chassis variant to represent the "Second Generation" baneblades made by forgeworlds without the full industrial capabilities to make a proper baneblade or one to proper quality standards. Obviously, give it to guard as well, but these the GSC could feasibly get from a PDF.

We've already got "Wish.com Baneblades" in the form of Malcador, Macharius, and Rogal Dorn tanks (at least role-wise for the Rogal Dorn, I don't know off the top of my head if the RD is explicitly a budget superheavy the way the Malcador/Macharius are). To be fair, I don't think the IG 'dex does a particularly good job of representing PDF forces. I think we'd need a lot more variety, both in unit type and unit quality, before we could do that (yes, a good number of PDFs are roughly comparable to the tithes that are sent to the Guard, so the 'dex does work, but there would be a lot more stuff in the PDF that's adapted or tuned to local conditions, resource availability, and industrial/technological base - eg, Feral World PDF units might have a handful of Leman Russes, but they might rely more on cavalry or chariots as a baseline and keep the tanks for when the gak truly hits the fan since they'd be so dependent on outside resupply/expertise to perform maintenance and repairs).

Mind, I'd be fine with all the FW stuff (INCLUDING WHAT YOU STOLE FROM US, JAMES WORKSHOP ) in the mainline IG 'dex, though I'm not sure GW would be able or willing to do that correctly (I got the feeling back in 8e/9e that GW as an organization really resented FW's capabilities, and I doubt that's gone away).

I mean, I do agree we don't need second-gen baneblades when we have the Macharius, I'm just positing it as an alternative if GW wants to leave it behind. Also, the Malcador is not a budget super-heavy, but rather a inferior equivalent to the Leman Russ used before it's discovery and then slowly handed down the second and third-line forces as the Leman Russ became more common. The Rogal Dorn... is a complete anomaly. It vaguely fits the same weight class Malcador, but with the firepower of a Macharius. It's very odd, and what descriptions we have make it fit as some sort of super-heavy Crusier tank. A heavier line exploiter to accompany the Leman Russ, apparently being just as fast.

The Malcador had its advantages during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy- it was more durable and notably faster than a Leman Russ.

It only became inferior as the Imperium lost the ability to maintain the advanced engines and it became underpowered and slow. At this point it was retired to second line duties. By the 41st millennium, the Imperium seems to have forgotten the Malcador was once a highly mobile vehicle before the knowledge was lost (based on Imperial Armour).