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stratigo wrote:

 kodos wrote:
came across a similar discussion on reddit recently and the intresting part here is that for people to understand the satire of 40k one need to understand Britain of the 80/90ies, need to read the old books and read some old novels

Like a big part of that discussion was what are Orks in 40k
if one only know the gaming material and some novels, they are the comic relief of the setting (meaning everything else is serious), some see them as symbol of the African communities (opressed by imperialism) and others as the true fascist of the setting (as there is some german WW2 style in the art and models).

The internet will tell you that the original Orks were modeled after Hooligans, but without knowing the details of the british football hooligans this does not mean much and the connections are not made


If one needs to read certain novels to relise that 40k is satire and the rulebook is not enough to make that point than 40k has already lost that aspect

I mean there are times orcs in fantasy were absolutely standins of a british person's perspective of Africans living in Africa.

The game designers were heavily influenced by anti establishment punk culture. But, uh, sometimes that's still got plenty of yikes parts of it.

there's a certain degree to which any works in the lineage of Tolkien and D&D cannot escape the racist beginnings of the trope. Tolkien even used race science terminology in descriptions in Lord of the Rings. 40k is a bit distant from that origin and takes explicit influence from a specific alternative source, so it's better than most in this regard, but the original issue present remains, like a genetic disorder passed down from father to child. even knowing the background present, the "savage" and "mongoloid" coding of orcs remains present and makes the way they're presented in 40k a bit problematic. you can't fully escape the issue unless you break from convention completely, and when 40k's entire point at the beginning was "conventional fantasy, but in space", it's difficult to do so

stratigo wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think this is probably splitting hairs to the 9th degree, but I'd argue the Imperium is insufficiently developed to be fascist.

I mean a fundamental issue of the Imperium is that it isn't centralised. You could argue its more centralised in the most recent lore (cos Guilliman etc) - but not really.

Its social organisation is far closer to high middle ages feudalism (and I realise all those terms are contested) than the office politics of modern bureaucracies.

I would describe the imperium as decayed fascism. In reality, all fascist regimes were highly fractious and internally competitive and backstabby. The imperium's disunified nature is just a natural result of all the backbiting fascists naturally get up to lasting 10 thousand years (without somehow collapsing, because fascist regimes ALSO have never survived the death of their leader in reality)

ah, but you see, the Imperium's leader never actually died. sure, his body died, but he's being kept alive, so really, he still counts as being alive. totally definitely alive, nothing to worry about there. everything is fine

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

ah, but you see, the Imperium's leader never actually died. sure, his body died, but he's being kept alive, so really, he still counts as being alive. totally definitely alive, nothing to worry about there. everything is fine

All it takes is tens of thousands of citizens being fed to the psyker grinding machine every day and the great leader will continue to lead the Imperium to glory!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival.

[citation needed]

The Tau were meant to be the 'reasonable man' foil to the Imperium's insanity. It's explicitly stated in White Dwarf as the reason they were chosen as the POV for a major videogame, Fire Warrior.

I don't think 'actually fascism is necessary to survive so being a space nazi is the right choice' is what the writers are going for because I don't think they're actively trying to produce fascist apologia.

This is effectively what happens when an audience's desire for verisimilitude in a fictional setting results in authors creating reasonings for everything. The justifications become requirements rather than excuses. This gets particularly bad if you insist on an unchanging narrative, as there's no attempts to change the status quo and give people paths forward.

Lets be clear. Humanity is entirely reliant on the emperor's continued survival for interstellar travel, but they don't have to be. 10,000 years of contact with alien races who are quite capable of moving through the galaxy and have done so long before the emperor made it possible for humanity to do so would give humanity ample opportunity to remove that dependency. It's not that it can't happen, its that it won't as long as the Imperium insists on technological stagnation and murdering every other culture the encounter.

It's just really hard to make the setting compelling when its a galaxy of idiots doing things the hardest way possible so.... we create excuses and sell the excuses and ultimately create a version of the setting where the audience stops looking at things critically or objectively and just accepts that the absurdity of it is logically sound.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, there's that, but also because it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival.

This has never, ever been true. What the imperium does is only for the survival of the imperium as a system, not humanity as a species.

 catbarf wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival.

[citation needed]

The Tau were meant to be the 'reasonable man' foil to the Imperium's insanity. It's explicitly stated in White Dwarf as the reason they were chosen as the POV for a major videogame, Fire Warrior.

I don't think 'actually fascism is necessary to survive so being a space nazi is the right choice' is what the writers are going for because I don't think they're actively trying to produce fascist apologia.

Neither do I, hence why I said tragic. Never said they were the "right" choice. The right choice would have been for the Dark Age of Technology to never end and for the Imperium to never form.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival.

[citation needed]

The Tau were meant to be the 'reasonable man' foil to the Imperium's insanity. It's explicitly stated in White Dwarf as the reason they were chosen as the POV for a major videogame, Fire Warrior.

I don't think 'actually fascism is necessary to survive so being a space nazi is the right choice' is what the writers are going for because I don't think they're actively trying to produce fascist apologia.

Neither do I, hence why I said tragic. Never said they were the "right" choice. The right choice would have been for the Dark Age of Technology to never end and for the Imperium to never form.

The tragedy is the Imperium doing the horrific acts it does despite them being detrimental to the survival of humanity.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival.

[citation needed]

The Tau were meant to be the 'reasonable man' foil to the Imperium's insanity. It's explicitly stated in White Dwarf as the reason they were chosen as the POV for a major videogame, Fire Warrior.

I don't think 'actually fascism is necessary to survive so being a space nazi is the right choice' is what the writers are going for because I don't think they're actively trying to produce fascist apologia.

Neither do I, hence why I said tragic. Never said they were the "right" choice. The right choice would have been for the Dark Age of Technology to never end and for the Imperium to never form.

The tragedy is the Imperium doing the horrific acts it does despite them being detrimental to the survival of humanity.

Yep, a lot of humanity's problem current problems were because of terrible decisions made in the past that they can't get out of. That's the point, humanity dug themselves in deep and they can't get out, so they keep digging down out of hope they'll come through the other side.

 Tawnis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Dai wrote:
I think the Tau potential mind control, empire building and brutal treatment of dissident compared to it's utopian greater good promises is probably better satire than a straight take on soviets myself.

Probably, but apparently it's not overt enough. Just as there are those who think the Imperium are heroes, there are those who think that the Tau are the good guys and take their Greater Good message and "cleaner" aesthetic at face value.

I guess GW is just really bad at writing effective satire, no matter who they are mocking.

Was the mind control aspect confirmed? I know it's been heavily implied, but I don't think it's been outright stated that's how the Ethereals control their subjects?

This is kinda the problem of so little overall Tau lore and most of what we have coming from the Farsight books which are off in their own corner away from the Ethereals for the most part.

From what I recall, (and it's been a long time, so correct me if I'm wrong) the Tau started out as the straight up "good guys" in the setting and were meant to be a foil to all the madness, decent people just trying to get the galaxy off the genocidal madness train, but being to small to do anything functional about it. But then there was all this outcry over having a non grimdark faction in the game, so the lore shifted a little to that being only the surface take and the Etherals being this mysterious group that put up a noble façade, but were secretly all on power trips themselves. When the pendulum swung the other way and all the people who liked the original lore didn't like that, they just tossed their hands in the air and wrote a bunch of Farsight books. Not that those are bad, they just don't really represent the Tau Empire as a whole very well. We only get snippets of what life is like there, not a full picture.

Personally I think that either of these takes works as part of the satire. You can run the true good guy angle as a foil to everyone else, but their size and morality keeps them from ever being able to topple the insane super powers. Or you can run them as the façade of good, but just being another version of a corrupt and twisted system. I just wish they'd pick one, stick with it, and actually give us some more lore books. (Personally I prefer the former take though).

It was more-less confirmed. While there are some scenes that could be taken as extreme reverence, there is one where Aun'Va tells another Tau to kill themselves and the read is that without really understanding what is going on, they are subconsciously compelled to obey.

Sinister undertones have been present since the very first Tau codex in 2001, they've just become more overt. They started out as a strict caste-based society with a defined leadership caste that seems to exert mind control over its minions- Farsight was a break away after the last Ethereal in his expedition died in the first codex. The Tau Empire was also overtly colonial from the beginning- it isn't xenocidal but it does have a very paternalistic approach to the xenos it assimilates and assumes they should be "civilised" to Tau values where possible.

Kill Team, also released in 2001, had parts of the Tau empire collaborating with the Last Chancers to take out one of their own commanders as he is becoming a bit of a liability (I think the implication is they are worried of a second Farsight).

The original rail rifle lore, where the Ethereals accepted weaponry that could kill the user, came not long after the Tau codex in White Dwarf.

The Tau empire is definitely better than the Imperium, but has always been grey not white.

The thing about the IoM being the "better" option for humanity survival is that neither the IoM or humanity is supposed to survive.

It is the End of Times, there are 3-4 existential threats, each one capable of annihilating humanity on its own. It isn't a question of survival, that train departed long ago, it is a question of spite.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, there's that, but also because it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival.

This has never, ever been true. What the imperium does is only for the survival of the imperium as a system, not humanity as a species.

Why not both? The Imperium is composed of humans, and after wiping out all rivals human institutions they currently the only human political body run by humans for humans.
Whether or not they are doing a good job is another matter entirely; the sad truth is that the Imperium is the current state of humanity.

So unless there's an Interex colony somewhere, yeah the Imperium does have a vested interest in humanity's survival, because no humanity means no Imperium and vice versa.

 Haighus wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Dai wrote:
I think the Tau potential mind control, empire building and brutal treatment of dissident compared to it's utopian greater good promises is probably better satire than a straight take on soviets myself.

Probably, but apparently it's not overt enough. Just as there are those who think the Imperium are heroes, there are those who think that the Tau are the good guys and take their Greater Good message and "cleaner" aesthetic at face value.

I guess GW is just really bad at writing effective satire, no matter who they are mocking.

Was the mind control aspect confirmed? I know it's been heavily implied, but I don't think it's been outright stated that's how the Ethereals control their subjects?

This is kinda the problem of so little overall Tau lore and most of what we have coming from the Farsight books which are off in their own corner away from the Ethereals for the most part.

From what I recall, (and it's been a long time, so correct me if I'm wrong) the Tau started out as the straight up "good guys" in the setting and were meant to be a foil to all the madness, decent people just trying to get the galaxy off the genocidal madness train, but being to small to do anything functional about it. But then there was all this outcry over having a non grimdark faction in the game, so the lore shifted a little to that being only the surface take and the Etherals being this mysterious group that put up a noble façade, but were secretly all on power trips themselves. When the pendulum swung the other way and all the people who liked the original lore didn't like that, they just tossed their hands in the air and wrote a bunch of Farsight books. Not that those are bad, they just don't really represent the Tau Empire as a whole very well. We only get snippets of what life is like there, not a full picture.

Personally I think that either of these takes works as part of the satire. You can run the true good guy angle as a foil to everyone else, but their size and morality keeps them from ever being able to topple the insane super powers. Or you can run them as the façade of good, but just being another version of a corrupt and twisted system. I just wish they'd pick one, stick with it, and actually give us some more lore books. (Personally I prefer the former take though).

It was more-less confirmed. While there are some scenes that could be taken as extreme reverence, there is one where Aun'Va tells another Tau to kill themselves and the read is that without really understanding what is going on, they are subconsciously compelled to obey.

Sinister undertones have been present since the very first Tau codex in 2001, they've just become more overt. They started out as a strict caste-based society with a defined leadership caste that seems to exert mind control over its minions- Farsight was a break away after the last Ethereal in his expedition died in the first codex. The Tau Empire was also overtly colonial from the beginning- it isn't xenocidal but it does have a very paternalistic approach to the xenos it assimilates and assumes they should be "civilised" to Tau values where possible.

Kill Team, also released in 2001, had parts of the Tau empire collaborating with the Last Chancers to take out one of their own commanders as he is becoming a bit of a liability (I think the implication is they are worried of a second Farsight).

The original rail rifle lore, where the Ethereals accepted weaponry that could kill the user, came not long after the Tau codex in White Dwarf.

The Tau empire is definitely better than the Imperium, but has always been grey not white.

Thanks for the extra details, it's been quite a while since I read old Tau lore.

While Tau have always been overtly colonial, they are still probably one of the nicest depictions of colonialism I've ever seen, fictionally or not. While paternalistic, they don't seem (so far as I can tell) to put all but the most basic restrictions on the other species in their empire. For example many of the Tau see the Kroot as fairly savage beings in need of enlightenment (obvious parallels are obvious), yet they don't force this upon them or even ban their canabalistic nature which the Tau find incredibly distasteful. So far as I can tell, the only two rules they've imposed on Kroot society is a) Don't eat us, and b) We mutually defend each other. It's also not like they haven't' had time to do this either, the Kroot are one of the earliest members of the Tau Empire and have been a part of the union for thousands of years, yet have still very much maintained their independence and cultural identity. I'm sure if we had more Kroot lore, we could get into much more of the relationship between these species, but I'm not holding my breath.

There have been some more recent snippets of lore hidden about that do imply a more sinister side to their colonialism. It is implied (though it is through the subjective experience of a Kroot's genetic memory of a Vespid) that the Tau have subverted the Hive structure of Vespid society and turned their drone armies into essentially slave warriors, but it's only an implied second hand account. (Another race we need to see more of).

In the Farsight books we even get to see the council that governs Tau society as a whole has 3 non-Tau members in its 12 person council (or it might be 13 counting Aun'Va, I'm not sure if he was counted as part of the 12). IIRC it was a Demiurg, a Human, and a Niccassar. Another thing not typical of colonial empires, they tend to install their own leaders in the colony governments, not invite members of the colony back to join their own.

The bit about the Last Chancers reminds me of the book... I think it was Fire Caste... where essentially this Tau Commander and Imperial Commander have a deal to keep eternally fighting over this backwater nothing rock as a place where their factions can send the unwanted dregs of their solidary to die while the neither side causes a problem for their governments at large. There is corruption in every society though, and these do seem like more the outliers in Tau society and not the norm, but that's hard to say for certain without more lore.

For sure, even if they were still considered the "good guys" of the setting, it's never that simple, I didn't mean to imply as such.

If nothing else one would probably have a nicer time living under the Tau jackboot than the imperial one so long as you play ball and don't question anything. That's when the guns come out.

It's kind of interesting to see how some authors approach it. Chris Wraight, in the Carrion Throne series, has an Interrogator think about the skulls all over everything and wonder when humanity stopped doing it ironically. In the Lords of Silence there's the character of Vorx basically being a Space Ghost episode inside an otherwise horrifying story. A lot of Dan Abnett's books seem like they play it straight but when you visualize it there's a lot of sight-gags (I was reminded of this reading Titanicus lately, where they literally throw the squad auspex at an attacking Titan). Dembski-Bowden has Cyrion in the Night Lords trilogy asking how people are doing; there's a sinister reason revealed eventually but the joke is that he's friendly and personable despite being a Night Lord. Then there's Arkhan Land's monkey.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, there's that, but also because it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival..

Is it, though?

This is one of the things that the interminable Horus Heresy series got right. It showed us that Horus rebelled because the Chaos powers tricked him into creating the future he wanted to avoid... And it hinted that the Emperor got at least some of his power and his vision of the future from those same Chaos entities.

The clear implication is that the Emperor was wrong. And that makes the setting so much better, from a narrative perspective.. 'The Imperium is awful, but necessary' isn't a tragedy, it's just horrible. 'The Imperium is awful, and those in charge think that's necessary, but they are wrong' ... That's a tragedy.

 insaniak wrote:
'The Imperium is awful, but necessary' isn't a tragedy, it's just horrible. 'The Imperium is awful, and those in charge think that's necessary, but they are wrong' ... That's a tragedy.

Well said.

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, there's that, but also because it undermined a core part of the setting's tragic nature, where no matter how terrible the Imperium is, it's still the better option for humanity's survival..

Is it, though?

This is one of the things that the interminable Horus Heresy series got right. It showed us that Horus rebelled because the Chaos powers tricked him into creating the future he wanted to avoid... And it hinted that the Emperor got at least some of his power and his vision of the future from those same Chaos entities.

The clear implication is that the Emperor was wrong. And that makes the setting so much better, from a narrative perspective.. 'The Imperium is awful, but necessary' isn't a tragedy, it's just horrible. 'The Imperium is awful, and those in charge think that's necessary, but they are wrong' ... That's a tragedy.

Well, you're not wrong, but do you know what else is a tragedy? For human civilization to be at it's peak, for it to have all sorts of technology and cultural wonders, and then lose it all due to a quirk of fate, and continue going downhill from there due to a combination of bad luck and terrible decisions, to the point that humanity now lives in a hell of its own making that it can't get out of because they believe the alternative could be extinction, and it may very well be given how hostile the galaxy is (which again, was partially due to luck and partially due to poor decisions)
That's pretty damn tragic.

Now, you might say "but that's horrible", and you're right, it is horrible, that's the point.

I mean, if your setting is described with this :

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Then yeah, abandon all hope, ye who enter.

Which is why it bothers me that GW is trying their damnedest to make it look like some colourful, heroic marvel farce. That's...not the look they should be going for. If they are going to copy a comic, at least copy Berserk.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, you're not wrong, but do you know what else is a tragedy? For human civilization to be at it's peak, for it to have all sorts of technology and cultural wonders, and then lose it all due to a quirk of fate, and continue going downhill from there due to a combination of bad luck and terrible decisions, to the point that humanity now lives in a hell of its own making that it can't get out of because they believe the alternative could be extinction, and it may very well be given how hostile the galaxy is (which again, was partially due to luck and partially due to poor decisions)
That's pretty damn tragic.

Yes, and that was exactly my point.

You claimed that the tragedy was in the Imperium being bad but the alternative being worse. My point was that the actual tragedy is that the Imperium is bad but never actually needed to be.

We have no evidence that the alternative would be worse, only the Emperor's word... and the Emperor was wrong.

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, you're not wrong, but do you know what else is a tragedy? For human civilization to be at it's peak, for it to have all sorts of technology and cultural wonders, and then lose it all due to a quirk of fate, and continue going downhill from there due to a combination of bad luck and terrible decisions, to the point that humanity now lives in a hell of its own making that it can't get out of because they believe the alternative could be extinction, and it may very well be given how hostile the galaxy is (which again, was partially due to luck and partially due to poor decisions)
That's pretty damn tragic.

Yes, and that was exactly my point.

You claimed that the tragedy was in the Imperium being bad but the alternative being worse. My point was that the actual tragedy is that the Imperium is bad but never actually needed to be.

We have no evidence that the alternative would be worse, only the Emperor's word... and the Emperor was wrong.

Ah I see, it seems we were talking about the same thing, just that I didn't communicate it properly. My apologies.

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Well, you're not wrong, but do you know what else is a tragedy? For human civilization to be at it's peak, for it to have all sorts of technology and cultural wonders, and then lose it all due to a quirk of fate, and continue going downhill from there due to a combination of bad luck and terrible decisions, to the point that humanity now lives in a hell of its own making that it can't get out of because they believe the alternative could be extinction, and it may very well be given how hostile the galaxy is (which again, was partially due to luck and partially due to poor decisions)
That's pretty damn tragic.

Yes, and that was exactly my point.

You claimed that the tragedy was in the Imperium being bad but the alternative being worse. My point was that the actual tragedy is that the Imperium is bad but never actually needed to be.

We have no evidence that the alternative would be worse, only the Emperor's word... and the Emperor was wrong.

This. Also, the Imperium could never have been anything but what it became because it was rotten at it's core, the Emperor. It was founded in war and genocide by a psychopath who had no understanding of humanity. He had no empathy, no compassion. He was never going to make anything but a complete dystopian hellscape.

my problem with Tau, Imperium and satire here is, that the Tau at the beginning were something like "as the Imperium should have been" and despite everything it works for the better which is a big contrast to the "only way possible to survive" making it all more obvious

and than it was changed to be "worse" than the Imperium because it only works because they are mind controlled by a higher power and the Imperium is still the better option because there you have at least some form of free will

 kodos wrote:
my problem with Tau, Imperium and satire here is, that the Tau at the beginning were something like "as the Imperium should have been" and despite everything it works for the better which is a big contrast to the "only way possible to survive" making it all more obvious

and than it was changed to be "worse" than the Imperium because it only works because they are mind controlled by a higher power and the Imperium is still the better option because there you have at least some form of free will

I don't mind the change that much. Making them too much of the best possible option would have detracted from the setting's bleak nature, imo.
I'd rather have trade offs than upgrades.
They are less "as the Imperium should have been" and more "what Imperium could have been without exposure to everything else" now, I think. Unfortunately, the Tau are now getting exposed to everything else and are learning things the hard way. Like that Cultural Exchange event with the Dark Eldar.
Still collectivist gits though.

I dunno if the Imperium has that much free will compared to the Tau, really. I'm sure on some worlds you might have a bit more freedom, but the Imperium still uses lobotomy as a punishment and there are still hive cities. There's not much point in having free will when you have some foreman whacking you over the head for not meeting your 20 hour work quote.

 kodos wrote:
my problem with Tau, Imperium and satire here is, that the Tau at the beginning were something like "as the Imperium should have been" and despite everything it works for the better which is a big contrast to the "only way possible to survive" making it all more obvious

and than it was changed to be "worse" than the Imperium because it only works because they are mind controlled by a higher power and the Imperium is still the better option because there you have at least some form of free will

I don't think it needs to be a competition and if it does then I'd personally rate the imperium as far worse. I still think having a pure good guy faction would be kind of out of place for cynicism of the setting though.

Dai wrote:

 kodos wrote:
my problem with Tau, Imperium and satire here is, that the Tau at the beginning were something like "as the Imperium should have been" and despite everything it works for the better which is a big contrast to the "only way possible to survive" making it all more obvious

and than it was changed to be "worse" than the Imperium because it only works because they are mind controlled by a higher power and the Imperium is still the better option because there you have at least some form of free will

I still think having a pure good guy faction would be kind of out of place for cynicism of the setting though.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. One of the mistakes GW made with the Imperium was insisting on making Space Marines the noble good guys, rather continuing to make them Sardaukar monks. Bit of a mismatch, really.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There's not much point in having free will when you have some foreman whacking you over the head for not meeting your 20 hour work quote.

Especially when he's whacking you on the head with the mechanized femur of the last guy who didn't meet his quota...

 kodos wrote:
my problem with Tau, Imperium and satire here is, that the Tau at the beginning were something like "as the Imperium should have been" and despite everything it works for the better which is a big contrast to the "only way possible to survive" making it all more obvious

and than it was changed to be "worse" than the Imperium because it only works because they are mind controlled by a higher power and the Imperium is still the better option because there you have at least some form of free will

From what information we have so far on the Tau, I think this is a vast oversimplification. From everything I've read, the Ethereals can only use their "mind control" when in close proximity to their targets. This allows them to control the top echelons of government for their entire society, but prevents them from doing basically anything on a day to day level for their citizenry, so they still need to keep them happy. Also, they only have influence over Tau, not other races, so as they bring more races into their empire, it does somewhat diminish their own power. While not ideal, this is still a vast improvement over the Imperium.

Honestly, Tau society kinda makes me think of many current governments, just with an official oligarchical meritocracy framework rather than one behind the scenes of a democracy.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Dai wrote:

 kodos wrote:
my problem with Tau, Imperium and satire here is, that the Tau at the beginning were something like "as the Imperium should have been" and despite everything it works for the better which is a big contrast to the "only way possible to survive" making it all more obvious

and than it was changed to be "worse" than the Imperium because it only works because they are mind controlled by a higher power and the Imperium is still the better option because there you have at least some form of free will

I still think having a pure good guy faction would be kind of out of place for cynicism of the setting though.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. One of the mistakes GW made with the Imperium was insisting on making Space Marines the noble good guys, rather continuing to make them Sardaukar monks. Bit of a mismatch, really.

I think it was in Godblight by Guy Haley where the Ultramarines massacre some civilians so that they don't give away their covert mission.

Fun observation: The IOM likely kills more of humanity than any other source. Between executions, sacrifices, Wholesale World ending execution missiles, wasteful and protracted conflicts, and collateral damage, IOM likely kills more IOM than anything else. All combined in a single day, maybe "they" kill more, but IOM is certainly better at killing itself than being killed.

Which is why BiggiE is getting stronger, all those sacrifices have to power something...

Satire

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Fun observation: The IOM likely kills more of humanity than any other source. Between executions, sacrifices, Wholesale World ending execution missiles, wasteful and protracted conflicts, and collateral damage, IOM likely kills more IOM than anything else. All combined in a single day, maybe "they" kill more, but IOM is certainly better at killing itself than being killed.

Ah, but those don't actually kill the Imperium as an entity. That kind of mass death is the goal of the Imperium, as fascism is a cult of death, be it in war or genocide. War, wholesale murder and genocide isn't a means to an end for the Imperium, it is the end that the Imperium seeks.

Humanity is the fuel that the Imperium burns to sustain itself.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Fun observation: The IOM likely kills more of humanity than any other source. Between executions, sacrifices, Wholesale World ending execution missiles, wasteful and protracted conflicts, and collateral damage, IOM likely kills more IOM than anything else. All combined in a single day, maybe "they" kill more, but IOM is certainly better at killing itself than being killed.

Ah, but those don't actually kill the Imperium as an entity. That kind of mass death is the goal of the Imperium, as fascism is a cult of death, be it in war or genocide. War, wholesale murder and genocide isn't a means to an end for the Imperium, it is the end that the Imperium seeks.

Humanity is the fuel that the Imperium burns to sustain itself.

Genocide of other species? Sure. Genocide of humanity? No, because the Imperium is ultimately run by humans. Not xenos, not machines, not chaos, humans.
The Imperium has a vested interest in keeping humanity alive because it is humanity. It saw to that following the Great Crusade, absorbing or destroying any lost colony the Emperor's forces came across.

Think of it as an ant hive. It doesn't matter how many drones die, as long as the hive as a whole (or rather the queen, which is basically the hive as it's the only source of new ants) survives, because there will be more ants to take its place. The hive doesn't seek to wipe itself out through it's expansionism because that would be counterproductive.
Indeed, there is a parallel between the Imperium and eusocial insect colonies; remember that their cities are called hives.

I know it's tempting to speak of the Imperium as some nebulous, faceless force of nature controlling the masses like AM or Sauron, but all it is is a dysfunctional political system run by dysfunctional people.

The IoM will happily genocide humans it considers traitors or geretics or too far from what it considers baseline humanity. It isn't trying to wipe out the entire species, but definitely specific groups.