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BIG WARNING
I am an idiot, and am bound to get thing wrong! So please be patient!
With that said...
THE TOPIC
So I am really into playing the older editions of Warhammer 40,000. In particular the third, and forth editions. However, I have... questions...
1) How do I build a smash captain/ Chaplain.
2) Is it possible to use the Terminator Honors of the Veteran Squad to build a 5 man Jump-pack Veteran Squad?
3) What is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon? Is it a Power Fist?
So why these questions? Its just a start to them. While I call the older editions "Common Sense Editions", I do think that there are times that the rulings can get... "Funny"? As in: The rules are either unclear, or explained in a way that makes it very hard to understand (eg, Khorn Berserker Close Combat Weapons being "Close Combat Weapons", or "Heavy Close Combat Weapons").

So, thank you all in advance for your responses!

Welcome to Dakka.

The title of the post says 4th, but then you say 3rd and 4th in the body, the answers may be slightly different.

Smash characters were not as big in 3rd/4th, as the rules had been toned down from the hero levels of 2nd, and not creeped back up with the layered relics/warlord traits of 6th-7th. You can still pile on the gear and they are not slouches. My chaplain spent most of 3rd leading my army, and while I didn’t get as many games of 4th in, IIRC captains were ascendant in that edition. Wargear costs were kinda steep back then. I know I was firmly in the “boys before toys” camp, so might not be the best person to talk about smash captains.

Are you looking to play normal codex chapter marines, or blood angels? I’d have to check the codex to see how JPs and vets work. I know those editions pre-date the sternguard/vanguard split.

I think a DCCW was a powerfist with no drawbacks, but would have double check. The old editions tend to blend in memory.

LinkiePuppo wrote:BIG WARNING

3) What is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon? Is it a Power Fist?

Nevelon wrote:

I think a DCCW was a powerfist with no drawbacks, but would have double check. The old editions tend to blend in memory.

A DDCW (both in 3rd and 4th) was indeed functionally a powerfist with no drawbacks - attacks in normal order, doubles the S value (to a maximum of 10), no armour saves. Model-wise, it was a catch-all term because 2nd edition dreads could take a variety of options (e.g. power hammers/mauls, power scourges and such implements) that were streamlined into the DCCW until the game became more granular again with the addition of more dread variants in Imperial Armour and later editions.

I remember dual Lightning Claws as the best melee damage weapons for SM characters. They were pricey though.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
1) How do I build a smash captain/ Chaplain.

Furious assault (and frag grenades) with a power weapon or take a powerfist and enough of a retinue to hide behind - having enough bodies that your big hitter is still alive after some daemon prince has dropped in and put a half dozen instant death hits on the squad is where you want to be. 4e space marines were fairly uncomplicated.

IIRC those jp vets were valid but would cost you an arm and a leg... and then you'd need to arm them, just to see them get wasted by bolter fire because they are regular T4 3+ guys. In most cases you'd be better off with just a regular assault squad of twice the size for the same points.

Blood Angels 4e were in white dwarf june/july 2007 (at least in the UK - I am only going by the title page from the 5e re-issue pdf). I can only speak to the prices listed in the re-release but they are much more reasonable.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

1) How do I build a smash captain/ Chaplain.

I assume that you'd be wanting to take a Space Marine Commander (Master) or Chaplain (Master of Sanctity) with a Power Fist (or Thunder Hammer), plus other gear.

Realistically, the Chaplain was regarded as the better choice the vast majority of the time, so you'd be looking at something like:
Master of Sanctity ~181-196 pts
- Crozius
- Power Fist
- Rosarius
- Jump Pack
- Frag Grenades
- Probably Terminator Honours and/or Adamantine Mantle

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
2) Is it possible to use the Terminator Honors of the Veteran Squad to build a 5 man Jump-pack Veteran Squad?

Veterans couldn't take Jump Packs in 4th edition. You could use a Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad, although they were pricy for what you got.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
3) What is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon? Is it a Power Fist?

'Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons
If a Dreadnought is armed with a close combat weapon, it doubles its Strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10) and ignores Armour Saving throws. A Dreadnought armed with two close combat weapons gains an extra attack...'
(4th ed. Rulebook, pg.73)

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
(eg, Khorn Berserker Close Combat Weapons being "Close Combat Weapons", or "Heavy Close Combat Weapons")

Berzerkers are armed with regular close combat weapons (Codex: Chaos Space Marines (4th ed.), pg.98.

I would guess he means the 3.5 codex Chainaxes that capped your enemy's armor at 4+. I think that's what "Heavy Close Combat Weapon" refers to, because I remember Choppas had the same rule.

Alternative Smash Captain build is to use the Salamander rules from Codex: Armageddon. Salamanders had unique access (among loyalists) to immunity from Instant Death, by taking a special cloak. Might have been called the Adamantium Mantle. Salamanders also could take TH/SS Terminators for fewer points than others (37 I think), so you could take a pretty hefty unit along with your captain.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Alternative Smash Captain build is to use the Salamander rules from Codex: Armageddon. Salamanders had unique access (among loyalists) to immunity from Instant Death, by taking a special cloak. Might have been called the Adamantium Mantle. Salamanders also could take TH/SS Terminators for fewer points than others (37 I think), so you could take a pretty hefty unit along with your captain.

So I played my game of Fourth edition against Orks, and you have no idea how good Adamantine mantle was against an Ork boss with a power-claw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
I would guess he means the 3.5 codex Chainaxes that capped your enemy's armor at 4+. I think that's what "Heavy Close Combat Weapon" refers to, because I remember Choppas had the same rule.

In the 4th edition rule book they state blatantly that Khorne Berserkers had "Heavy Close Combat Weapons" in the fluff.
I suppose that I could still be wrong though. :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

1) How do I build a smash captain/ Chaplain.

I assume that you'd be wanting to take a Space Marine Commander (Master) or Chaplain (Master of Sanctity) with a Power Fist (or Thunder Hammer), plus other gear.

Realistically, the Chaplain was regarded as the better choice the vast majority of the time, so you'd be looking at something like:
Master of Sanctity ~181-196 pts
- Crozius
- Power Fist
- Rosarius
- Jump Pack
- Frag Grenades
- Probably Terminator Honours and/or Adamantine Mantle

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
2) Is it possible to use the Terminator Honors of the Veteran Squad to build a 5 man Jump-pack Veteran Squad?

Veterans couldn't take Jump Packs in 4th edition. You could use a Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad, although they were pricy for what you got.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
3) What is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon? Is it a Power Fist?

'Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons
If a Dreadnought is armed with a close combat weapon, it doubles its Strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10) and ignores Armour Saving throws. A Dreadnought armed with two close combat weapons gains an extra attack...'
(4th ed. Rulebook, pg.73)

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
(eg, Khorn Berserker Close Combat Weapons being "Close Combat Weapons", or "Heavy Close Combat Weapons")

Berzerkers are armed with regular close combat weapons (Codex: Chaos Space Marines (4th ed.), pg.98.

Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon:
So I did finally find the Dreadnought ccw in the rule book this morning, Funny that. It just wasnt in the spot I was expecting, and slipped by me.

Jump Veterans:
That sucks. But, Terminator honors still lets them take something like- Plasma pistol Powerfist? (I am asking because that's what my current sergeant is built as... because I built them for 9th.)
Though there are also the special veterans Kayvaan Shrike can take, but I like my Iron Hands successor... Why be Sneaky?

Smash Captain:
So I built 2 characters for the game I played today. 2K :-) (I lost to the Green Skin Menace).
One was just a regular chaplain with crozius, and bolt pistol. I ran him in a 10 man (regular) jump-pack squad.
Second one was my chapter master:
-Master
-Thunderhammer
-Iron Halo
-Bionics
-Adamantine Mantle
He basically killed an entire 10 man Ork boy mob in 2 turns, and survived 2 blows from a powerfist, while taking only a single wound. (gotta love those dice rolls of a XD)

A.T. wrote:

IIRC those jp vets were valid but would cost you an arm and a leg... and then you'd need to arm them, just to see them get wasted by bolter fire because they are regular T4 3+ guys. In most cases you'd be better off with just a regular assault squad of twice the size for the same points.

Blood Angels 4e were in white dwarf june/july 2007 (at least in the UK - I am only going by the title page from the 5e re-issue pdf). I can only speak to the prices listed in the re-release but they are much more reasonable.

Lord Damocles wrote:
Veterans couldn't take Jump Packs in 4th edition. You could use a Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad, although they were pricy for what you got.

Yes, June and July 2007. Veteran Assault Squads only cost 10 points more than the Regular Assault Squad (150 for 5 vs 140). They were more expensive than Assault Marines in the regular Space Marine book (22 PPM so 110 for 5) because they included "free" Death Company models. A full 10-man RAS would cost 250 as the second 5 marines only cost 110, the same as the vanilla book. You could only run 5 or 10, because Jervis. For every infantry squad you took, you got one DC model. You could also buy additional DC at 30 points each.

Anyway, the RAS were hot garbage. No special weapons. Best you could do was get three overpriced plasma pistols and a single power weapon or powerfist on the sergeant. They didn't hit very hard because the just had normal close combat weapons. A full unit of 10 would have 31 attacks on the charge and maybe kill 2 marines. They did use a troop slot which was helpful in 5th edition.

The veterans were a much more capable unit. They could take flamers, meltguns and plasma. Every one could have a power weapon, lightning claw or power fist. They got more attacks because they were all vets.

4th edition BA also had an honor guard squad which was kind of the predecessor to the sanguinary guard. It could include a sanguinary priest with an exsanguinator that allowed a model with 6" to ignore a wound once per turn.

But the real action in 4th was the death company. They had furious charge, feel no pain, and rending. They put out 4 attacks per model on the charge and got to strike first against other marines. These guys would munch most any target you pointed them at. I always tried to run 10 with Lemartes.

 Arschbombe wrote:

A.T. wrote:

IIRC those jp vets were valid but would cost you an arm and a leg... and then you'd need to arm them, just to see them get wasted by bolter fire because they are regular T4 3+ guys. In most cases you'd be better off with just a regular assault squad of twice the size for the same points.

Blood Angels 4e were in white dwarf june/july 2007 (at least in the UK - I am only going by the title page from the 5e re-issue pdf). I can only speak to the prices listed in the re-release but they are much more reasonable.

Lord Damocles wrote:
Veterans couldn't take Jump Packs in 4th edition. You could use a Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad, although they were pricy for what you got.

Yes, June and July 2007. Veteran Assault Squads only cost 10 points more than the Regular Assault Squad (150 for 5 vs 140). They were more expensive than Assault Marines in the regular Space Marine book (22 PPM so 110 for 5) because they included "free" Death Company models. A full 10-man RAS would cost 250 as the second 5 marines only cost 110, the same as the vanilla book. You could only run 5 or 10, because Jervis. For every infantry squad you took, you got one DC model. You could also buy additional DC at 30 points each.

Anyway, the RAS were hot garbage. No special weapons. Best you could do was get three overpriced plasma pistols and a single power weapon or powerfist on the sergeant. They didn't hit very hard because the just had normal close combat weapons. A full unit of 10 would have 31 attacks on the charge and maybe kill 2 marines. They did use a troop slot which was helpful in 5th edition.

The veterans were a much more capable unit. They could take flamers, meltguns and plasma. Every one could have a power weapon, lightning claw or power fist. They got more attacks because they were all vets.

4th edition BA also had an honor guard squad which was kind of the predecessor to the sanguinary guard. It could include a sanguinary priest with an exsanguinator that allowed a model with 6" to ignore a wound once per turn.

But the real action in 4th was the death company. They had furious charge, feel no pain, and rending. They put out 4 attacks per model on the charge and got to strike first against other marines. These guys would munch most any target you pointed them at. I always tried to run 10 with Lemartes.

So... The Jump-pack vets idea is legal? I'm lost. :-(

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
So... The Jump-pack vets idea is legal? I'm lost. :-(

BA jump pack vets definitely.

4e marine jump pack vets... (pulls out book)
All models can be given terminator honours... ah, ok. They get the honours but no access to the armoury with them so regular jump vets are out. There is Shrikes Wing though.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I would guess he means the 3.5 codex Chainaxes that capped your enemy's armor at 4+. I think that's what "Heavy Close Combat Weapon" refers to, because I remember Choppas had the same rule.

Khornate Chainaxes were just an upgrade like almost any other. Whether Berzerkers had them or not was just a matter of whether you paid the 1 point per model (I always assumed that you were intended to use the actual axes from the Berzerker kit for WYSIWYG).

Insectum7 wrote:Alternative Smash Captain build is to use the Salamander rules from Codex: Armageddon. Salamanders had unique access (among loyalists) to immunity from Instant Death, by taking a special cloak. Might have been called the Adamantium Mantle. Salamanders also could take TH/SS Terminators for fewer points than others (37 I think), so you could take a pretty hefty unit along with your captain.

Salamanders Mantle.
Of course generic Marines gained access to essentially the same non-Chapter specific Adamantine Mantle in the 4th ed. codex.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

So... The Jump-pack vets idea is legal? I'm lost. :-(

Jump Pack Veterans were not available to regular Space Marines in 4th edition. They were only available to a Blood Angels army which used a separate codex. It was not a supplement. It was a complete standalone book. It was originally released in two consecutive issues of White Dwarf and then made available as a free download. You could probably find it online with some searching. You can PM me an email address and I can send it to you if you like. Here's the excerpt showing the veteran assault squad.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I would guess he means the 3.5 codex Chainaxes that capped your enemy's armor at 4+. I think that's what "Heavy Close Combat Weapon" refers to, because I remember Choppas had the same rule.

Khornate Chainaxes were just an upgrade like almost any other. Whether Berzerkers had them or not was just a matter of whether you paid the 1 point per model (I always assumed that you were intended to use the actual axes from the Berzerker kit for WYSIWYG).

Both Choppas and Chainaxes were originally unique wargear in their 3e codices (with identical rules), but when the 4e core rules came out they were both genericized into "Heavy CCWs" as part of their push to standardize things. Then they decided they didn't like them so they cut them out of the 4e Chaos and Ork codices, and by 5e there was no mention of them.

That's why OP is seeing references to Berzerkers with Heavy CCWs in the 4e rulebook, it's just a rename of the Choppa/Chainaxe that was only used for a brief time. To my knowledge "Heavy CCWs" were never actually expanded beyond those two examples.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

So... The Jump-pack vets idea is legal? I'm lost. :-(

Jump Pack Veterans were not available to regular Space Marines in 4th edition. They were only available to a Blood Angels army which used a separate codex. It was not a supplement. It was a complete standalone book. It was originally released in two consecutive issues of White Dwarf and then made available as a free download. You could probably find it online with some searching. You can PM me an email address and I can send it to you if you like. Here's the excerpt showing the veteran assault squad.

Sad. The only firstborn Jump-packs left available, that aren't from the Horus Heresy range, are the Vanguard Vets, and who knows for how long. :(
That's why I was asking about it. I want to be able to build things out as WYSIWYG as possible.
And the other issue: My homebrew chapter are a Iron Hands successor... With a focus on Thunder Hammers and Power Fists... You can imagine at that point, with 4 thunder hammers in a box, why I'd want Veterans with Jump-packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do also want to thank you all for dealing with my dumb nonsense.
I just really love the older editions, its fluff, and how flavorful it has been over 9th, and 10th edition!
So, thank you!

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
And the other issue: My homebrew chapter are a Iron Hands successor... With a focus on Thunder Hammers and Power Fists... You can imagine at that point, with 4 thunder hammers in a box, why I'd want Veterans with Jump-packs.

4e marine squads just don't have access to that concentration of double strength weapons without homebrew.

If you want to play by the book then your best bet is 'counts as' iron hands using the Blood Angels codex - they have plenty of feel no pain, thunder hammers in assault squads, and can even take tech-adepts in their command squads.

I mean, 4th is a long dead edition, its not like you are going to an official tourney for the system and need to follow the rules by the book exactly. You could just ask your friends if they are ok with you subbing the Blood Angels Veterans in to vanilla marines - could be as is, in exchange for losing a unit or two (a bit easy to be gamey with that, but for casual play I mean, no biggie), or you could count it as a divergence of the chapter with the chapter building rules. Really so long as the unit doesn't warp your games around them most people won't mind overmuch.

And man, in my slow collecting of all the 4th/5th era books, I somehow never even realized Blood Angels got a codex that edition, that is interesting.

You could also build the vanguard vets box to be WYSWYG compliment assault marines. There are enough chainswords and bolt pistols for all of them. They would just be more ornate then most.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

Sad. The only firstborn Jump-packs left available, that aren't from the Horus Heresy range, are the Vanguard Vets, and who knows for how long. :(
That's why I was asking about it. I want to be able to build things out as WYSIWYG as possible.
And the other issue: My homebrew chapter are a Iron Hands successor... With a focus on Thunder Hammers and Power Fists... You can imagine at that point, with 4 thunder hammers in a box, why I'd want Veterans with Jump-packs.

The slow elimination of all the first born stuff is really annoying. Get what you want while you can. Once it goes OOP prices will climb on Ebay. People are asking for over $100 for basic assault marines these days. If you can stomach Ebay rescues, you can lots of poorly assembled and painted stuff for cheap though.

Power armor Thunder Hammers used to be really rare. Back in the day we had to convert from the assault terminator kit. It's crazy that they packed so many in the vanguard box. These days you can also get good replacements from various 3d printing outfits.

I also want to ask... How do I increase the survivability of my marines?
This last game I played was against Orks, and we just brought very strong-ish lists. Well, they did, and I asked them to because I threw four dreads at him.
My Techmarine with servo harness failed to repair the missile launcher on a dreadnought, even with repair rerolls from the second servo arm.
My tactical squads, 10-man squads mind you, just got mulched by regular boy squads.
I saw in one of the Chapter Approved books for the 3rd edition, that if you bought the upgrades for the command squad specialists they could detach from the command squad, and add themselves to another marine squad.
Was there anything like that in 4th?

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
I also want to ask... How do I increase the survivability of my marines?

Quantity, distance, and line of sight/movement obstrucions.

4e orks was a very solid book, they won't beat marines point for point in an exchange of small arms but if you have a lot of points tied up in costly units they will have the quantity to deal with your troops and the hidden power klaws to deal with your elite.

Bigger units and shorter ranges mean they can't get weapons on target as efficiently as marines though and as charge moves are fixed in 4th try to keep track of how many turns you have and move back if needed to buy an extra round. Alternatively get something in behind the orks to pull units back or sideways, and/or split deployment to split the orks - don't let them bundle up the board as one big ball of death and pin you into combat.

If all else fails then flamethrowers. Also don't sleep on the rhino as while it's not the protective bunker of 5e but you can put your units behind it as mobile cover and something to gum up movement - be warned that using vehicles as blockers against 4e orks is a two edged sword as a poorly positioned one is 6" of free movement, but driving one square into the face of a big ork blob at the right time can buy you a turn.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
I saw in one of the Chapter Approved books for the 3rd edition, that if you bought the upgrades for the command squad specialists they could detach from the command squad, and add themselves to another marine squad.
Was there anything like that in 4th?

No, just the chapter customisation rules in the back of the book and regular attached characters.

It honestly depends on what kind of Ork list your friend is running, if its a skew towards Boyz, a Dredd and Kan wall, or a TAC list etc.

For Boyz, your better range and AP5 is your friend, unless they shelled out the points for 'eavy armor. The occasional flamer also won't hurt. A couple AP4 guns to combat nobz and 'ardboyz - heavy bolter for volume of fire or autocannon so you can also threaten vehicles in a pinch. A bit of the listbuilding though will go with whether you prefer boyz or toyz - a few fully kitted out units of marines and the like are super cool, but the cost can skyrocket after awhile. Figure out where on the spectrum you want to land on that pendulum and then you can figure out how to compensate for any shortcomings you have.

For tactics, know when you need to keep your distance and know when you want to get stuck in. I jumble my editions too much anymore to remember anything without specifically looking it up, but I'm pretty sure non-Nob Orks are only s4 on the charge in 4th, so even though they have more attacks than you, if you know they can rush you next turn, deny them the bonus and try to turn it into a slugfest. Also be aware that 4th edition orks can gunline decently, not the best by any means, but for an army based around BS2, they have the volume of fire to put the hurt on and since a good chunk of their weapons are assault they can shoot and then rush you down if you aren't careful.

On the plus side, you have higher Initiative and armor that most of their small arms fire at least will bounce off of, while they will either need to accept losses, pay up for 'eavy armor which I'm pretty sure is limited to 1 mob, slink through cover which will slow them down, or load up in trukks which will at least limit each mob's size. And with the leadership aura of the captain you should be able to in most instances pick your targets for maximum effect.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
I also want to ask... How do I increase the survivability of my marines?
This last game I played was against Orks, and we just brought very strong-ish lists. Well, they did, and I asked them to because I threw four dreads at him.

Ahhhh, I've got some pointers! I love 4th ed, and I played Marines against Orks all the time back in theday.

1: Whirlwinds are amazing against Orks, and cheap as dirt, at 75 points in 4th edition.
2: The 4th edition Marine codex gives you lots of room to mess around with your lists using the custom chapter traits rules. If you want more heavy weapons after you took three Whirlwinds in your Heavy Support slots, you can take the trait that gets you Elite Devastator Squads, and then put a cool upgrade on them. (I always took a Squad of Lascannon guys with Tank Hunters, to really ensure things like Battle Wagons didn't make it very far.)
3: Flamethrowers. Learn to leverage them when the Orks get close and you can kill bunches of guys when armies get close in.
4: If opposing shooting is killing more of your dudes than you like, feel free to use vehicles as moving walls to protect your guys against mass Shoota/Big Shoota attacks. It's not always an option, but when it is it's extremely useful.
5: You could always choose Orks as your Preferred Enemy as a Chapter Trait, and then lean into that.
6: The 4th edition Codex had the really neat option of taking a full-sized Command Squad of ten guys. They can be armed with bolt pistol and chainsword, then given Furious Charge as a Veteran ability. This is a not-expensive unit that can throw down in CC against Orks quite nicely in a charge/countercharge. If you use them to join a Chaplain, they'll be re-rolling to hit as well. A good fighting unit if you feel like you're getting swamped in CC.
7: One of my favorite units in 4th edition was a 6-man Terminator Squad with two Assault Cannons. Assault Cannons were stupid-good in 4th, and can do good work against lots of troops or vehicles because of their Rending rules. I usually Deep Struck mine, and typically had a Sergeant somewhere with a Teleport Homer to guide them in and forego any mishap-scatter potential.
8: If you like Jump Packs, there's a chapter trait that lets you take Elite Assault Squads. You don't get the extra weapon choices that Sternguard do later, but you get to take Furious Charge on your squad for extra hitting power.

I'd also give the advice of: Just don't be afraid to loose guys. One way to help with that is to just not spend so much on them, so you have more. Keep the fancy wargear at a minimum but make sure it gets where it need to be at the right time. Orks aren't big on armor, so just hitting them with lots of S4/5 attacks will do most of the trick. Stop their assault vehicles early and whittle them down.

Good luck! I wish I was in your shoes. 4th ed was a blast.

Against orks in 4th, a predator with autocannon and heavy bolters. Whirlwind is good. Tac squads with flamer and missile launcher could do well. Devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters or 4 missile launchers could do well. Using Rhino's to tank shock squads is a good idea.

BanjoJohn wrote:
Against orks in 4th, a predator with autocannon and heavy bolters. Whirlwind is good. Tac squads with flamer and missile launcher could do well. Devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters or 4 missile launchers could do well. Using Rhino's to tank shock squads is a good idea.

Hilariously I just invested in a Predator and a Whirlwind! XD
However, Ork friend brought 4th Edition Tyranids. It didn't end pretty.
I chose a corner to fortify and brought vets with Infiltrate.
The list was so:

Master, Master Crafted Thunder hammer, bionics, Artificer, and Iron Halo
Reclusiarch with Jump-pack and pistol
10 Vets, Heavy Bolter, Melta
Dreadnought, Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, Fist
Techman, Servoharness
2 10-man Tactical Squads, Heavy Bolter, Flamers
1 5-man Tactical Squad, stock
Assault Squad of 10, with Termie Honors, Powerfist, and Plasma pistol
2 Landspeeders with multi-meltas
10 Devistators with 4 lascannons, 6 bolters
Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters
and a Whirlwind.


Both me and Ork friend agreed that if I had gotten the first turn, I would've lasted longer.
Aka, I lost. I gave up round 3. My predator tank died turn 1. I lost one entire tactical squad (the five-man). The Devastators got locked in combat with two genestealers and couldn't shake them off.
But hey! Chapter Master of the Silver Hammers "killed" Ol' one eye.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

The list was so:

Master, Master Crafted Thunder hammer, bionics, Artificer, and Iron Halo
Reclusiarch with Jump-pack and pistol
10 Vets, Heavy Bolter, Melta
Dreadnought, Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, Fist
Techman, Servoharness
2 10-man Tactical Squads, Heavy Bolter, Flamers
1 5-man Tactical Squad, stock
Assault Squad of 10, with Termie Honors, Powerfist, and Plasma pistol
2 Landspeeders with multi-meltas
10 Devistators with 4 lascannons, 6 bolters
Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters
and a Whirlwind.

Soooo... having no idea what your opponents army was, and no idea what terrain you're fighting on, my instinct is to drop a Land Speeder, and upgrade your Tacs to carry Lascannons, your Predator to an Annihilator, and your Vets to carry a Lascannon as well.

It may seem odd to mix weapons, but the extra range and power of the Lascannons can help knock out big threats early before they become a problem that drains your time and resources later in the battle. Then when its time to lay into the little guys, you can switch to the Bolters/flamers later.

If my memory is right, -1 Land Speeder is 65 points, then the added Lascannons is +50 (10x3+20), then you have 15 points left over. With that I think you can turn that other Land Speeder into a Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon, which will give you some of that anti-infanty firepower back, but the Assault Cannon can also go after big creatures or vehicles as well with its Rending ability.

Just suggestions! Best of luck!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

The list was so:

Master, Master Crafted Thunder hammer, bionics, Artificer, and Iron Halo
Reclusiarch with Jump-pack and pistol
10 Vets, Heavy Bolter, Melta
Dreadnought, Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, Fist
Techman, Servoharness
2 10-man Tactical Squads, Heavy Bolter, Flamers
1 5-man Tactical Squad, stock
Assault Squad of 10, with Termie Honors, Powerfist, and Plasma pistol
2 Landspeeders with multi-meltas
10 Devistators with 4 lascannons, 6 bolters
Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters
and a Whirlwind.

Soooo... having no idea what your opponents army was, and no idea what terrain you're fighting on, my instinct is to drop a Land Speeder, and upgrade your Tacs to carry Lascannons, your Predator to an Annihilator, and your Vets to carry a Lascannon as well.

It may seem odd to mix weapons, but the extra range and power of the Lascannons can help knock out big threats early before they become a problem that drains your time and resources later in the battle. Then when its time to lay into the little guys, you can switch to the Bolters/flamers later.

If my memory is right, -1 Land Speeder is 65 points, then the added Lascannons is +50 (10x3+20), then you have 15 points left over. With that I think you can turn that other Land Speeder into a Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon, which will give you some of that anti-infanty firepower back, but the Assault Cannon can also go after big creatures or vehicles as well with its Rending ability.

Just suggestions! Best of luck!

Yeah! I appreciate that!
So Ork Friend's list was:

Swarm Lord with Tyrant guard, Ol' One Eye
3 squads of 30 Termagants
1 Squad of 3 Zonethropes
1 Suqad of 3 Warriors
2 Squads of 10 Gene-stealers
and 3 Screamer Killer Carnafexes.

The real thing that killed me was not getting the first turn, and the genestealers locking up my Devastator Marines.

And, I may do that After next time. I asked Ork Friend for a rematch with the same lists, but I could ask if we could make MINOR adjustments. :p

Thank you for the suggestions!

 LinkiePuppo wrote:
The real thing that killed me was not getting the first turn, and the genestealers locking up my Devastator Marines

It's unfamiliarity with the game, little gotchas like this will get you once and then you'll deploy differently next time.

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 LinkiePuppo wrote:

The list was so:

Master, Master Crafted Thunder hammer, bionics, Artificer, and Iron Halo
Reclusiarch with Jump-pack and pistol
10 Vets, Heavy Bolter, Melta
Dreadnought, Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, Fist
Techman, Servoharness
2 10-man Tactical Squads, Heavy Bolter, Flamers
1 5-man Tactical Squad, stock
Assault Squad of 10, with Termie Honors, Powerfist, and Plasma pistol
2 Landspeeders with multi-meltas
10 Devistators with 4 lascannons, 6 bolters
Predator Destructor with Heavy Bolters
and a Whirlwind.

Soooo... having no idea what your opponents army was, and no idea what terrain you're fighting on, my instinct is to drop a Land Speeder, and upgrade your Tacs to carry Lascannons, your Predator to an Annihilator, and your Vets to carry a Lascannon as well.

It may seem odd to mix weapons, but the extra range and power of the Lascannons can help knock out big threats early before they become a problem that drains your time and resources later in the battle. Then when its time to lay into the little guys, you can switch to the Bolters/flamers later.

If my memory is right, -1 Land Speeder is 65 points, then the added Lascannons is +50 (10x3+20), then you have 15 points left over. With that I think you can turn that other Land Speeder into a Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon, which will give you some of that anti-infanty firepower back, but the Assault Cannon can also go after big creatures or vehicles as well with its Rending ability.

Just suggestions! Best of luck!

Yeah! I appreciate that!
So Ork Friend's list was:

Swarm Lord with Tyrant guard, Ol' One Eye
3 squads of 30 Termagants
1 Squad of 3 Zonethropes
1 Suqad of 3 Warriors
2 Squads of 10 Gene-stealers
and 3 Screamer Killer Carnafexes.

The real thing that killed me was not getting the first turn, and the genestealers locking up my Devastator Marines.

And, I may do that After next time. I asked Ork Friend for a rematch with the same lists, but I could ask if we could make MINOR adjustments. :p

Thank you for the suggestions!

Ah yeah, as AT said getting those Devastators tied up is the sort of mistake that's common for you first few times out. You can mitigate that with deployment in the future. Good lesson though!

Looking at the opposing list, it looks potentially vulnerable to Synapse targeting. Look for opportunities to hurt the Nids by knocking out the Warriors, Zoanthropes and/or Hive Tyrant. With so many Gaunts, you might be able to reduce their effectiveness by killing the "brain bugs" rather than trying to kill all the gaunts themselves. I think Zoanthropes and Warriors are only T4 in 4th, so even just bolters can help you take them out.

I forget what the Zoanthropes save is in 4th. But the Warriors are only 4 or 5+, depending on biomorphs. Come to think of it, the Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon would actually be pretty ideal for going after the Warriors.

Edit: I bet Zoanthropes were invulnerable 3+. Lots of bolters against them is pretty ideal.