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Mind, they're flesh guns that are part of their bodies, in true tyranid body-horror fashion, but at the end of the day they're still limbs that hold guns. I'd rather all their ranged weapons were represented by lash-like appendages (tentacles, tails, tongues), orifices (like a bombardier beetle or poison-spitting snake), or even a swarm of fast-moving, short-lived hatchlings that are treated in-game as a flamer attack.

I suppose the design-related explanation is that guns are visually distinctive, so it's more WYSIWYG-friendly for models with several wargear options. And the in-story explanation for them evolving "guns" could be that they took a page from the book of the sentient races they encountered since entering the Milky Way.

IIRC for the most part the guns are completely separate from the nids carrying them in most cases. So while a gaunt is growing in the spawning pool, fleahborers are added to the mix amd they grow and fuse together

Or they might have spinefists added to the pool instead.

I also do not enjoy this element of their design. I get the justification but I do wish these living weapons were more organically bonded.

This old gargoyle literally looked like it was spewing up for its gun, sometimes older miniatures still have something about them that are superior.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/25/Gargoyle2nd.jpg

It would make it harder to visually distinguish which hole did what, though. That's not something you want to get confused about half an hour into the round. It's mighty embarrassing to call a judge for, for all involved.

The biggest offender with his detachable box magazine... oh its not detachable?

I can see the rounds inside. I guess they only shoot a couple rounds because they can't reload.

EDIT: Yes, I know it's supposed to look like a Boltgun.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The biggest offender with his detachable box magazine... oh its not detachable?

I can see the rounds inside. I guess they only shoot a couple rounds because they can't reload.

EDIT: Yes, I know it's supposed to look like a Boltgun.

Maybe those aren't rounds you're seeing in what you've assumed is a magazine.

Agreed. I love tyranids, but the gun-shaped guns are definitely one of the biggest missed opportunities. The old gargoyles are a good example of what I'd prefer. They make it seem like the entire gargoyle is just one big weapon with limbs. It makes you imagine that most of what's going on in its torso exists to facilitate the delivery of projectiles towards the enemy.

Give me mouth guns, tail guns, biovore style back guns... The lore tidbit about the guns themselves being separate organisms is neat, but a warrior still looks like he basically just picked a rifle up off a table and plugged his flesh tubes into it.

EDIT: I wonder if the "gun look" is the result of GW not being entirely sure which direction they wanted to go with tyranids when they were first introduced. Like, they used to have slave races that served as diplomats (zoats), which combined with the "guns" makes them feel like a relatively conventional species but with biotech weapons instead of gear made of plastic and metal. Since then, they've been retconned into a more beastial direction. If it weren't for the original sculpts, maybe artists would have felt more free to just give us animalistic weaponry.

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The biggest offender with his detachable box magazine... oh its not detachable?

I can see the rounds inside. I guess they only shoot a couple rounds because they can't reload.

EDIT: Yes, I know it's supposed to look like a Boltgun.

Maybe those aren't rounds you're seeing in what you've assumed is a magazine.

One could argue that it is a muscle/pouch/gland that can squeeze/constrict to squirt/shoot the fluids out for the attack, but it looks like a magazine.

BanjoJohn wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The biggest offender with his detachable box magazine... oh its not detachable?

I can see the rounds inside. I guess they only shoot a couple rounds because they can't reload.

EDIT: Yes, I know it's supposed to look like a Boltgun.

Maybe those aren't rounds you're seeing in what you've assumed is a magazine.

One could argue that it is a muscle/pouch/gland that can squeeze/constrict to squirt/shoot the fluids out for the attack, but it looks like a magazine.

{shrugs} It's an alien - it looks like a magazine with visible rounds to us, but it could be anything....
Until GW supplies us with a cutaway view & explanation of internal bitz of a Termagant (like they've done for SM/Termie armor) we'll never know for sure.

ccs wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The biggest offender with his detachable box magazine... oh its not detachable?

I can see the rounds inside. I guess they only shoot a couple rounds because they can't reload.

EDIT: Yes, I know it's supposed to look like a Boltgun.

Maybe those aren't rounds you're seeing in what you've assumed is a magazine.

One could argue that it is a muscle/pouch/gland that can squeeze/constrict to squirt/shoot the fluids out for the attack, but it looks like a magazine.

{shrugs} It's an alien - it looks like a magazine with visible rounds to us, but it could be anything....
Until GW supplies us with a cutaway view & explanation of internal bitz of a Termagant (like they've done for SM/Termie armor) we'll never know for sure.

I thought they did that in the 3rd ed codex and/or some white dwarf issues back in 3rd edition, hmmm.

ccs 816206 11742283 wrote:

One could argue that it is a muscle/pouch/gland that can squeeze/constrict to squirt/shoot the fluids out for the attack, but it looks like a magazine.

{shrugs} It's an alien - it looks like a magazine with visible rounds to us, but it could be anything....
Until GW supplies us with a cutaway view & explanation of internal bitz of a Termagant (like they've done for SM/Termie armor) we'll never know for sure.

Karol wrote:

But those are not real things. They are designed by technicaly humans, and it very much does look like a reskined bolt gun. There are old csm bolters that look like the weapon those guants are rocking.

This. It's a made-up fantasy alien. I can't "um akshually" at GW and tell them they made their bio-guns wrong.

But aesthetically, tyranid guns read as guns. They look like they're being picked up and carried and pointed in a very similar fashion to a rifle wielded by a human, and the addition of dangling flesh tubes and some lore about the gun being alive doesn't really change that.

They don't look like animals that evolved the ability to launch projectiles; they look like animals that found manufactured rifles made of meat and picked them up. It almost comes across as tyranids emulating the humanoids of the Milky Way. (Which could be eerie in its own way, but I don't think that's what they were going for.)

Compare a porcupine or skunk or pistol shrimp or venom-spitting lizard to a termagaunt with a devourer. The former are emitting their projectiles from central structures (mouths, backs, tails) or are just utilizing a specialized form of claw (the shrimp). The latter essentially has a pair of "arms" that it uses to "pick up" (technically not true but looks that way) a weapon with a shape that roughly corresponds to a firearm, and it points that weapon at enemies in a similar fashion to a soldier pointing a rifle.

tldr; it's weird that it looks like a gaunt is carrying a rifle around.

Hmm my other post didn't post? I thought in 3rd/4th there were some pictures either in the codex, the rulebook, or white dwarf, along with some text/blurbs about the biology/dissection of the tyranids and their weapons.

BanjoJohn wrote:

Spoiler:

ccs wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The biggest offender with his detachable box magazine... oh its not detachable?

I can see the rounds inside. I guess they only shoot a couple rounds because they can't reload.

EDIT: Yes, I know it's supposed to look like a Boltgun.

Maybe those aren't rounds you're seeing in what you've assumed is a magazine.

One could argue that it is a muscle/pouch/gland that can squeeze/constrict to squirt/shoot the fluids out for the attack, but it looks like a magazine.

{shrugs} It's an alien - it looks like a magazine with visible rounds to us, but it could be anything....
Until GW supplies us with a cutaway view & explanation of internal bitz of a Termagant (like they've done for SM/Termie armor) we'll never know for sure.

I thought they did that in the 3rd ed codex and/or some white dwarf issues back in 3rd edition, hmmm.

Maybe.
But 3e was 20some years ago & I haven't looked at that codex since then (it might still be in the storage unit??) so it might've been deleted from (my) memory. And if it was in a WD then I definitely missed it as I rarely ever picked up an issue.
And I'm too lazy to Google it.

BanjoJohn wrote:Hmm my other post didn't post? I thought in 3rd/4th there were some pictures either in the codex, the rulebook, or white dwarf, along with some text/blurbs about the biology/dissection of the tyranids and their weapons.

ccs wrote:
Maybe.
But 3e was 20some years ago & I haven't looked at that codex since then (it might still be in the storage unit??) so it might've been deleted from (my) memory. And if it was in a WD then I definitely missed it as I rarely ever picked up an issue.
And I'm too lazy to Google it.

It was a hormagaunt necropsy in the 3rd edition codex.

Never had an issue with it and it IS easier to see which weapon is which.

What's interesting is if you turn back the clock and look at earlier and earlier Tyranids they for the most part "held" their guns very visually. As time marched on they become increasingly more fused to their guns.

This fitted with their very early lore where they are basically using biotech for everything instead of mechanical technology.

Once we get into more modern lore the guns themselves are not just biotech they are living biotech symbionts with their larger carriers.



My view is that Tyranids are both masters of genetics and yet also slaved to elements of their original design/creation from countless millennia ago. So they can't make a gun that's a living animal but they can make one of their own that's a living creature with legs and they can make a biotech weapon that has eyes and is "alive" enough and then fuse the two together.

Tyranids are nearly always an enigma like that. Bits and fragments that make sense and don't make sense because we can't see the whole picture of their race

 Wyldhunt wrote:
EDIT: I wonder if the "gun look" is the result of GW not being entirely sure which direction they wanted to go with tyranids when they were first introduced. Like, they used to have slave races that served as diplomats (zoats), which combined with the "guns" makes them feel like a relatively conventional species but with biotech weapons instead of gear made of plastic and metal. Since then, they've been retconned into a more beastial direction. If it weren't for the original sculpts, maybe artists would have felt more free to just give us animalistic weaponry.

I actually have an old copy of White Dwarf where, in the run-up to the Tyranid 3rd Ed release, Jes Goodwin talked about the design and sculpting process. Since they were doing a complete range refresh, they had the opportunity to radically change the look and feel of the army. One of the things he specifically mentions was that he wanted their guns to feel like part of the creatures, not separate technology that they carry.

Apparently, they did initial prototypes where the guns were directly integrated into them, and didn't like that they were hard to recognize as weapons from a tabletop distance, let alone tell apart from one another. So they did the integrated-into-the-arms look as a compromise.

One other thing I find interesting is that in 3rd and 4th Eds, the studio army had all the weapons painted in the same scheme as the creatures carrying them. Guns were the exoskeleton color, claws were carapace color. But come 5th Ed, they repainted all the guns and claws into a third color. It makes them stand out- and detracts from the integrated look.

I always feel like the Tyranid 3rd edition refresh almost felt like it had two different design teams behind it.

Models in plastic and models in metal felt like they were related but also entirely different.

Metal ones went for massive jaws and huge oversized exposed teeth and chunky proportions - whilst the plastics went for much more fine detail.

It's interesting that many of the plastics we got from that era have stood the test of time pretty well as designs. Sure we got new updates to the warrior kit over time and the Gaunts got fully redone with leviathan - but mostly to more dynamic poses rather than a refresh of the design.

Meanwhile a lot of the metal models went through massive changes in 4th edition. though I am glad that Raveners are getting their proper longtails from their first design back.

I never had too much of a problem with the Tyranid weapons except for the gaunt flesh borers. They look way too much like a bolter, or some weapon with a magazine. It's the primary reason I equipped my termagants all with devourers, since they at least looked somewhat 'alien'.

 amanita wrote:
I never had too much of a problem with the Tyranid weapons except for the gaunt flesh borers. They look way too much like a bolter, or some weapon with a magazine. It's the primary reason I equipped my termagants all with devourers, since they at least looked somewhat 'alien'.

Fleshborers appear to be the earliest tyranid weapon that GW came up with. As the very first prototype tyranid model they designed was equipped with one.
It has its roots in H.R. Giger's biomechanical artwork, which is probably why it has something resembling a magazine. A lot of that art took regular technology and reimagined it as something organic.
While the design has changed quite a bit over time, the basic shape with magazine is still there if you squint a little. Which may be why it looks more mechanical than some later designs.




Personally it doesn't bother me much. The thing fires projectiles. So they've got to be stored in there somewhere.
The current shape is better than some alternatives I've seen proposed.

The (quite schlocky and meh) 1984 sci-fi novel "West of Eden" has stone age humans vs further evolved, sentient dinosaurs who use bioshaping in place of technology. Including guns that are living creatures that must be fed and kept warm. Can anyone think of other earlier sci-fi examples of "biological guns"?

Yep an in the Rogue Trader book they are very much described as using bio-tech as opposed the mechanical tech. It's in the latter codex where they really push on the idea that Tyranids aren't just using biotech but basically are the biotech themselves.

The lore veers away from really calling it biotech and simply leaning into the idea of Tyranids being all biologically bred and created.

It's a very subtle divide, but it is there and as this thread proves it does make a difference.

It has create the issue people have started to believe Tyranids are naturally evolved animals rather than bio-enginnered tools and weapons.

Tyranid guns are guns. They may be biomechanical rather than conventional mechanics, but they are still accelerating projectiles at supersonic velocities and with enough force to penetrate armor. A Tyranid fleshborer is as artificial as a bolter, both being the result of weapon development rather than natural evolution.

So at least for me it makes sense they are gunlike, there are only so many ways to make a functional gun.

 RustyNumber wrote:
The (quite schlocky and meh) 1984 sci-fi novel "West of Eden" has stone age humans vs further evolved, sentient dinosaurs who use bioshaping in place of technology. Including guns that are living creatures that must be fed and kept warm. Can anyone think of other earlier sci-fi examples of "biological guns"?

The Flintstones?

One reason for tyranids having weapons that are not fully part of them is that the weapon and the delivery system are grown separately and then fused in the last stages of production.

 amanita wrote:
I never had too much of a problem with the Tyranid weapons except for the gaunt flesh borers. They look way too much like a bolter, or some weapon with a magazine. It's the primary reason I equipped my termagants all with devourers, since they at least looked somewhat 'alien'.

Fleshborers look like boltguns because they originally were boltguns. RT tyranid weapons were the same, functionally, as eldar or imperial weapons only made from meat rather than metal or plastic.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Fleshborers look like boltguns because they originally were boltguns. RT tyranid weapons were the same, functionally, as eldar or imperial weapons only made from meat rather than metal or plastic.

Yet they look more like bolters now, 35 years later, than they did originally...

 Tyran wrote:
It has create the issue people have started to believe Tyranids are naturally evolved animals rather than bio-enginnered tools and weapons.

Tyranid guns are guns. They may be biomechanical rather than conventional mechanics, but they are still accelerating projectiles at supersonic velocities and with enough force to penetrate armor. A Tyranid fleshborer is as artificial as a bolter, both being the result of weapon development rather than natural evolution.

So at least for me it makes sense they are gunlike, there are only so many ways to make a functional gun.

Taking a step back, you're creating a creature with the intent of having it fire beetles en mass at someone. Why would you specifically need it to look like a gun? Why would it need to be held in/by the forelimbs? Why would it be outside of the armoured body?

There's a lot of redundancy there, it could simply be a series of internal organs and project via the head of the creature to reduce waste of biomass on additional limbs etc.

It's not supposed to be a tyranid with a tyranid gun, it's supposed to be a bilogical weapon on legs.

Dudeface wrote:

Taking a step back, you're creating a creature with the intent of having it fire beetles en mass at someone. Why would you specifically need it to look like a gun? Why would it need to be held in/by the forelimbs? Why would it be outside of the armoured body?

There's a lot of redundancy there, it could simply be a series of internal organs and project via the head of the creature to reduce waste of biomass on additional limbs etc.

It's not supposed to be a tyranid with a tyranid gun, it's supposed to be a bilogical weapon on legs.

You want a barrel if you are using either pressure or electromagnetism to accelerate the beetles, you want it mounted on forelimbs to have a large freedom of movement and thus large firing angles. Internally mounted weapons are volume expensive and have extremely poor angles as the entire body needs to rotate to aim.