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Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




In the adeptus custodes detachment lions of the emperor there is a stratagem called unleash the lions.

UNLEASH THE LIONS
WHEN: Your Command phase.
TARGET: One ALLARUS CUSTODIANS or AQUILON CUSTODIANS unit from your army that is on the battlefield.
EFFECT: That unit is split into separate units, each containing one model. These new units each have a Starting Strength of 1.


How does this work with oath of moment ? Is the original unit gone, no more oath of moment target ? Are all those new single model units all oath of moment targets ? How does this interact with gorillamans masters of battle ? Is it enough to kill a single new model unit to trigger masters of battle ? Do i have to kill all of them ?

How does this work with marked for death ? Are all those new single model units all marked for death units ? Or there is no marked for death unit anymore because the original unit is gone ? Do i score 5 vp because the original unit is no longer on the battlefield ?

How does this work with votanns grudge tokens ? Do all those new single model units have grudge tokens ? Or no one, because there original unit doesnt exist anymore ?
   
Made in nl
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant




netherlands

There will always be one unit with those tokens, debuffs. some off those rulles will tell you what happens when the unit splits up or dies. See grudge tokens.

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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

There is an entire section of the Core Rules Update and Rules Commentary that addresses this in nauseating detail.

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_wh40k_core&key_core_rules_updates_commentary_dec2024-q3wavde393-kabutntfbt.pdf
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Can you please give more details what kind of section you mean ? I couldnt find anything there.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

My apologies. I'm must be remembering from a prior edition. The closest we have is:

Page 10 – Persisting Effects
Add the following:
‘Some rules apply an effect that lasts until a certain duration has passed (e.g. until the start of your next turn). Such effects are known as persisting effects. If a persisting effect applies to a unit when it embarks within a Transport, make a note of that effect and its duration; if that unit disembarks for any reason, any persisting effects continue to apply to that unit for their full duration. If a persisting effect applies to an Attached unit and that unit ceases to be an Attached unit (because either all of its Bodyguard models or all of its Leader models are destroyed), any persisting effects continue to apply to the surviving unit(s) for their full duration.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/05 18:22:25


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I read that. Unfortunately a unit of aquilon or allarus custodians is not an attached unit, unless of course there is a character attached, which is only possible for allarus custodians.
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






I don't know of any official rulings on this but the way I see it, the original unit ceases to be (not destroyed) functionally removing it from the battlefield and a number of new units are created at the same moment.

With the original unit gone there is no more oath of moment target and because it wasn't destroyed Master of Battle does not activate.

Marked for Death says
One or more of the selected units were destroyed (or removed from the battlefield for any other reason) this turn

Since the original was removed from the battlefield, in my view, this scores

For Judgement tokens it says
...If a unit with Judgement tokens splits up into two or more smaller units, each of those units gains a number of Judgement tokens equal to that of the original unit...
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Hiding from Florida-Man.

Not sure how some of this works, since the rules specifically say split, not removed.

The question I have, is do the Custodians regain abilities, ie from Golden Light... now that they are new units.

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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 KingGarland wrote:
I don't know of any official rulings on this but the way I see it, the original unit ceases to be (not destroyed) functionally removing it from the battlefield and a number of new units are created at the same moment.

With the original unit gone there is no more oath of moment target and because it wasn't destroyed Master of Battle does not activate.

Marked for Death says
One or more of the selected units were destroyed (or removed from the battlefield for any other reason) this turn

Since the original was removed from the battlefield, in my view, this scores


The term removed from the battlefield is well defined in the rules. When a model or unit is destroyed (when it has 0 wounds) it is removed from the battlefield, or when a unit is placed in strategic reserves, or when it embarks within a transport. Unleash the lions doesnt say that the unit is removed from the battlefield. It simply isnt there anymore. You could count that as removed from the battlefield, but it doesnt match the definition of removed from the battlefield. So there is some doubt if marked for death is scored.
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






LaurentLamar wrote:
 KingGarland wrote:
I don't know of any official rulings on this but the way I see it, the original unit ceases to be (not destroyed) functionally removing it from the battlefield and a number of new units are created at the same moment.

With the original unit gone there is no more oath of moment target and because it wasn't destroyed Master of Battle does not activate.

Marked for Death says
One or more of the selected units were destroyed (or removed from the battlefield for any other reason) this turn

Since the original was removed from the battlefield, in my view, this scores


The term removed from the battlefield is well defined in the rules. When a model or unit is destroyed (when it has 0 wounds) it is removed from the battlefield, or when a unit is placed in strategic reserves, or when it embarks within a transport. Unleash the lions doesnt say that the unit is removed from the battlefield. It simply isnt there anymore. You could count that as removed from the battlefield, but it doesnt match the definition of removed from the battlefield. So there is some doubt if marked for death is scored.


I am having trouble finding the official definition can you point out were you found it?
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Its all in the core rules.

Destroyed
Throughout a battle, models will suffer damage and be destroyed. When a model is destroyed, it is removed from the battlefield. When every model in a unit has been destroyed, that unit is destroyed.


Embark
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a TRANSPORT model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that TRANSPORT model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.


Redeployments
Rules that allow players to redeploy certain units after both armies are deployed (e.g. HURON BLACKHEART’s Red Corsairs ability) are always resolved after the Deploy Armies step (or, if you are playing a Crusade battle, after the Deploy Crusade Armies step), and before the Determine First Turn step, before determining who has the first turn. When a player uses such a rule, they remove that unit or units from the battlefield, then deploy them again using all the normal rules (for example, if all the models in one of these units have the Infiltrators ability, that unit’s player can set that unit up using that ability). Players alternate resolving any such rules, starting with the Attacker.

   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






Central Florida

Thankfully the rules for the Lions does not say "removed," it simply says:

EFFECT: That unit is split into separate units, each containing one model. These new units each have a Starting Strength of 1.

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Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






I was looking for a definition of the term/effect not conditions that create the effect; eg. For X to occur Y must happen not if Y happens X occurs (if that makes sense).

If the only way for a unit to be considered "Removed from the battlefield" is for it to be destroyed, embarked or redeployed and Unleash to Lions does none of those then marked for death would not trigger and the original unit just stops existing with no triggers being activated.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

 KingGarland wrote:
Unleash to Lions does none of those then marked for death would not trigger and the original unit just stops existing with no triggers being activated.


Yeah, makes sense to me.

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