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As the topic suggests. Having never played fantasy I am utterly enamored with the 5th (4th?) ed era Empire models currently available on made to order. I love the professional look (compared to the rabble of later Empire State Troops) and real world historical vibe. I am taking a big plunge and going nuts with this MTO.
The question: What are reasonable unit sizes? I don't necessarily need to make a super optimized list but I want to avoid making units too small to be effective- especially seeing how difficult they will be to fill out later. I think I'm going to get 30 halberdiers for a big block. Does that sound appropriate? I'm less certain about hand gunners and Empire archers. You get 8 and 10 models, respectively. Are 8 hand gunners effective? Should it be 16? What about Empire Archers? 10 seems like a small unit to me.

Maybe one other question: Is there merit to having two big blocks of halberdiers (I really like the models) or should I endeavor to get a block of swordsmen or spears, and why?

Edit: I will be playing The Old World rules.

Are you playing The Old World rules? Assuming you are, and at 2000 points (smaller games generally means smaller unit sizes are needed).

Empire Halberdiers are in a tough spot, Empire swordsmen are more survivable and spearmen offer more attacks, albeit at lower quality than the halberdiers.

Most Empire troops have the Horde special rule, meaning they can claim rank bonuses of up to +3 rather than +2 (a combat modifier that determines the overall winner of the combat, combat is not just about killing stuff in Fantasy).

For Empire halberdiers to claim a rank bonus the unit must be at least 5 models wide, and bonuses only start to apply after the first rank. So that tells us that a unit should be 20 models in size, arranged in a 5x4 formation to claim the maximum available rank bonus. However, this gives no room for taking casualties whilst the unit makes its way to combat, so you'll likely want to add a buffer, lets say another rank of 5 models. So we're now at 25 models in a 5x5 formation. I'd say that is the minimum size needed for Empire combat units, and applies to all variants of Empire Infantry.

Regarding shooting units, you'll typically see Empire archers deployed in 5 model units and in skirmish formation, and the handgunners deployed either in 5 man detachment units or in 10 man units. The way shooting works means that only the front rank of the handgunners can shoot, so you'll want them to be deployed in a single rank, and a single rank of 10 models is already quite cumbersome so adding more models can become awkward to manoeuvre. Shooting units generally don't need command options, maybe a champion and/or musician, but no standard bearer.

There is no merit in two big blocks of Halberdiers, one would suffice and then have one of each of the other two types of infantry. The problem is, Games Workshop may never release the matching swordsman and spearmen models to go alongside the metal Halberdiers currently available.

I say all of this as someone who has just ordered 60 of the Halberdiers, because I think they look cool. I will run them in 2 units of 28 in a 7x4 formation. If I knew for certain that GW will be doing another MTO for the swordsmen and spearmen then I would probably just get the one unit, but as they may not, 2 units of halberdiers of that size means I have a playable army, whereas a single infantry unit would likely not.

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of breakdown that really helps me out. It looks like the 10 archers will be fine for me, and I'll just get one batch of hand gunners to do 5 man units (I can pick up 2 more gunners easily enough.) I'll get just one big block of halberdiers and start working on other infantry through more traditional routes.

Great breakdown - thank you. Please post pics of the metal halberdiers when painted so we can marvel at them.

Not sure I'm able to post pictures but I'll give it a go.

Amazing!


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To the original poster:

Empire state troops are currently unfortunatly really not good. They are way too expensive for what they offer.
Potentially the best use would be 30 veteran state troops with sword and shield (for a 4+ save in close combat) and a Griffon banner in them.

They are normally having +9 in close combat resolution and they should win against a lot of units (but unfortunatly not kill stuff).

Drooling at those metals - that’s warhammer fantasy right there. I’m chowing down on the memory berries right now!

A little late, but the Empire generally plays with Hammer and Anvil tactics. You use very large blocks of state troops to fix enemy units in place while an elite unit of some kind flanks and does the killing.

This means your state troop units(melee ones anyway) need to be larger sized. 40+ if you are talking a normal sized game(2k or so). Smaller you can get away with 25 but as Dave says that is the minimum you want. This large size is needed because, while you can have the mentioned static +9 to combat resolution, there are a lot of potential adversaries which can easily chew through that +9 and you need this block of troops to stay put for a couple rounds without running away.

As for ranged troops, small or minimum sized is the way to go, but you do not want too many of these units. They are very easy for enemy units to outright destroy in one round, overrun, and then rampage through your back lines. They are really just there to do a little chip damage or be a speed bump when you need it.

The ideal combat order for Empire is that the enemy charges their big scary unit into your block of halberdiers. They hold for 1-2 rounds of combat(likely losing, but holding their position), during which you've moved a unit of Demigryph knights or something similar to the flank of the enemy fighting the Halberdiers and you then win the fight in the end. And because the Halberdiers survive the battle thanks to having a lot of bodies they don't give victory points.

This concept really applies to every faction in WHFB in every edition, but Empire is the one it applies to the most.

State Troops on their own are not going to do damage to the enemy or win the battle. They are enablers for your knights, steamtanks, etc...


A tip on filling out your units with extra models. There is an old trick called "Filler Models" where you can take a larger base(with the same footprint as a number of smaller bases) on which you make a cool diorama or something and put it inside your unit. Empire are on 25mm bases for example. You can use a 50mm base(same size as 4 25mm bases in a square) and make a cool rock or something with 1-2 miniatures on it. It counts as 4 state troops, but only uses 1-2 miniatures. It can be removed as you take casualties.

Sprinkle a few of these through your army and you can save a bit of $$ and make it look cool. I've seen people use a guy pushing a wagon with some supplies in it, camp follower miniatures, a shrine to Sigmar, an extra flag bearer, etc... Be creative. Especially with the higher model count armies like Empire. Pick up any of the limited edition or weird one-off models and use them in your unit fillers.