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In the newest C:SM, they've replaced Veteran Sergeants with the idea of giving them Terminator Honors.

In a Blood Angels army, Veteran Sergeants can get free Power Fists in the DC.

If you have a squad of Terminators in your BA list, and one has to go to the Death Company, can you take that squad's Sergeant and then give him a Power Fist in the Death Company?  He's a Sergeant, and like all Terminators, he has Terminator Honors, right?

Well, according to the RAW, it doesn't say that the Terminators have Terminator Honors.  They just have a base 2 Attacks.  That being the case, I can't really find a RAW basis for their Sarge being a "Veteran Sarge" when it comes to the DC.  Am I missing something?

In fact, I can't even see a RAW basis for being able to give anybody in the DC a free Power Fist, except maybe the Sergeant from a Veterans squad.  Again, am I missing something?

Well, according to the RAW, it doesn't say that the Terminators have Terminator Honors. They just have a base 2 Attacks.

Check the rules entry for Terminator Armour on page 25 of the Marine codex. If a model has the armour, they have the Honours.

The Terminator Honours rules description says that sergeants who have it are called Veteran Sergeants. There's your RAW for veteran sergeants going into the Death Company.

RAW fails for Terminator squads. According to that philosophy, they don't have Terminator Armour (just a 2+ save), Terminator Honours (just +1A) or 5+ invulnerable saves. They have a special rule for deep strike but they can sweeping advance and the sergeant is not limited by the "not for Terminator armour" rules in the armoury.

Trying to enforce RAW for Terminators is just plain silly. You can assume that they DO have Terminator Armour and honours but the +1A is already included in their profile. If you do accept this then the honours also make the sergeant a veteran sergeant.

I have never had a problem with losing a terminator sergeant and to DC treating as a vet sergeant. I've never been questioned on it at all. By definition any terminator sergeant is a veteran sergeant. To me the vet assault squad is more confusing. Their description indicates that they are led by a vet sarge, making it seem mandatory to take him. However, later to give the rest of the squad terminator honours it uses the phrase "If the squad is led by a veteran sergeant..."

I play it that he IS mandatory (28+12 points) but an argument could be made either way since any sergeant leading the squad would be a veteran sergeant just like any marine in the squad is a veteran space marine. Notice in the new codex they are very careful with their wording of the veteran squad. The sergeant leading the veterans only becomes a veteran himself when Terminator Honours are purchased for him.

Tangent ended!

When the terminator goes to the DC, does it keep the terminator armor? If not, then it loses the termie honors also - those are attached to the wargear terminator armor. As a DC, then, the sargent is not a veteran sargent, as he does not have terminator honors. Simple. Therefore, he does not get a powerfist.

From the Offical FAQ, on the British website, Ver 4.1 released after the new Space Marine Codex was printed,

Death Company (p.4)
When generating a Death Company, if a Veteran Sergeant is selected to join, he loses any weapons and wargear he originally had

P1 Veteran sergeant has powerfist and terminator honours as weapons and wargear
P2 he is selected to join the death company
P3 Death company member have a bolt pistol and Chain sword/close combat weapon
C Veteran Sergeant loses powerfist and terminator honours and gains bolt pistol, chain sword, furious charge and feel no pain.

Also an this is the grief a lot of folks have with Blood Angels and death company, any model chosen to join the death company gets power armour and if the death company is not mounted in a rhino, a jump pack.  This means that From the members of your command squad to the lowest scout, if one of them is chosen to join the Death company, then they loose all their equipment, powerfists, power weapons, heavey wpns, whatever, and get issued one each suit of black power armour, a bolt pistol, and a chain sword and are sent charging across the battlefield at the nearest enemy unit, unless they are controlled by a chaplain.  This means your DC can be made of models costing anyware from 60 pts for a terminator w/ assault cannon to 13 pts for a space marine scout (and this is another debate on the brokenness of the DC entirely.)

Thanks for the FAQ cite. This seems straight forward.

Often, there's no demurrer on a rules claim (i.e. - my guys a vet sarge, and gets a powerfist) because the other person doesn't know the specific rule or codex, is looking to have fun, and isn't quibbling over every possible rule. Hardly proof of how the rule is.

My head hurts....

All the terminators are veterans. The sgt is the sgt of a veteran squad. Therefore when he goes to the death company he gets a demotion and forgets he was a veteran.

Wait, in order to make a sgt a vet sgt you have to give him terminator honors, right? Isn't that wargea? If he loses it when he goes to the squad you can never have a veteran sgt in the death company...?

Midnight-
The fluff reason behind the DC is that they are having basically a psychotic episode and beleive that they are now Sanginous (BA players feel free to kill me for not remembering how to spell our Primarch's name) fighting in Horous's battle barge above Terra. SO the fluff reason is yes, they have forgotten everything and are now just psychotic killers charging the enemy, and you wouldn't want them possibly destroying your valuable Terminator Armour or "delicate" weaponry.
The RAW in the FAQ state, they get nothing and like it. So yes, you can never have a veteran sgt (ie. sgt with terminator honors in death company). I mean come on, I play BA, I love BA, do we really need to have a veteran SGt in the DC to make it an effective unit?

losttau, fluff has nothing to do with it

The basic questions are:
1) Does a Termie Sargeant count as a "Veteran Sargeant" ; and
2) What happens if he goes to the DC.

If we say for the sake of argument that he does count as a Vet Sarge, then it works exactly as outlined in the codex.  He loses his current equipment and wargear, gets the DC gear, and as having been a Vet Sarge, can take a powerweapon or powerfist in the DC, as per the DC unit description.

I've become completely confused by this thread.  Any "Vet Sarge" from the BA list, who goes to the DC, can select a powerweapon or powerfist when he becomes a member of the DC.  Period. 

While I appreciate the FAQ above, I think its slightly out of context.  While the Vet Sarge does lose his current equipment, he can select the aforementioned weapons from the DC unit options.

And fluff cannot be used anyways. If the terminator sergeant forgets he was a veteran then how does the veteran scout sergeant remember he was a veteran!? It can't go both ways. Either the guy is a veteran sarge and always will be, or he isn't ever one. The only distinction a veteran sarge has in the DC is his weapon options. I can see how some may feel that using a terminator sargeant as a vet sarge is cheesy, but I can also see how people think that the Blood Angels as a whole are cheesy. I am one of the few BA players that opt to utilize the full strength of the Blood Angels. I use vet assault squads a furioso dread or two and assault squads. I might use the termy squad in large point games but they don't hit the table very much. So, when I'm paying an extra 100 points for a mandatory chaplain and he's leading a bunch of zero point madmen around it's not because I've fielded my weight in cheap scouts. I'm losing expensive models to that unit. If someone wants to quibble with me about wether or not a terminator sarge is a veteran or not they probably have a dispraportionate amount of fear of the DC and don't fully understand the gamble that is the Blood Angels.

If they are a Veteran sargent, then of course they do. However, if they are only counted as a "veteran sargent" because they wear the termie armor, and they lose the termie armor before going to the DC, then they lose the option of choosing the better weaponry.

Can someone with the Codex handy tell us if the terminator sargent can, without getting any upgrades, take wargear?

The RAW in the FAQ state, they get nothing and like it. So yes, you can never have a veteran sgt (ie. sgt with terminator honors in death company).

That's false.

"If you roll a 4+ for a squad led by a Veteran Sergeant, he may be the model who joins the Death Company. He may be armed with a power weapon or power fist as noted in the Death Company army list entry."

The wording here relates to the status of the model before it joins the Death Company. If something was a Veteran Sergeant, then joins the Death Company, it gets a free Power Weapon or Power Fist. It's not saying "Veteran Sergeants in the Death Company get free stuff," it's saying "Veteran Sergeants who go to the Death Company get free stuff."

Honestly, though, why would they have this rule at all, if there was no way to use it? Why not say "any Carnifexes who are inducted into the DC get free Barbed Stranglers?"

Antonin: "However, if they are only counted as a "veteran sargent" because they wear the termie armor, and they lose the termie armor before going to the DC, then they lose the option of choosing the better weaponry."

But that creates circular logic! If Veteran sergeants lose their wargear when they join DC, and it is only by wargear that they are veteran sergeants, then he becomes a regular sergeant and that rule does not pertain to him. Loop until infinity! Aaaaaah! *pop*

"The squad sergeant may select equipment from the space marine armory" page 31 CSM to answer your question. Although, apparently the veteran assault squad sergeant cannot! Those crazy Blood Angels! They keep us guessing don't they!

ok looks like I stepped in it now...
@ Claive Company CO For the record, I to play Blood Angels and also am sick of people constantly complaining about the DC. I normally, however, take a couple squads of marines in Razorbacks in an attempt to get some heavy weapons on the field that can fire at least once. As well as my Assault marines Veteran Assault Marines and Chaplain...but army lists go in another portion of the board...

@Cruentus I couldn't agree more fluff has nothing to do with this. ONly RAW

That said I beleive we are talking about 2 seperate things.
In a normal Space marine squad, there is no more "verteran Seargant" only a Seargent with terminator honor for 15 pts. that according to the FAQ he loses when he becomes a member of the DC along with all his war gear.
The Veteran Squad is another thing entirely, and since i currently do not have my Blood Angels codex with me I cannot answer wether a member of a veteran squad, gets a chance to have a power fist, power weapon ect. I will look that up when I get home and correct myself as required.

Glaive: once again in the new marine codex there is neither a Veteran scout sergeant, or a Veteran sergeant leading a normal troop squad. So there would be nothing to forget. As far as Terminator squads go, once again the fluff means nothing and Terminators/Terminator Assault squads are listed as being filled by a sergeant and terminators, not veterans, thus they would not be able to pick special weapons from the DC veterans list. (at least that is my interpretation)

So now I stand back and let the dice fall where they may.

So are you saying that a space marine with terminator honours claimed by the DC doesn't have the weapon options? Because, by strict RAW I would agree with you. I'm sure there is a fluff passage somewhere about them being equivalent, but I don't think there is any rules quote that makes it so. I think everyone (myself included) has just taken it for granted that Sergeants with Termy honors are the same as vet sarges for the purposes of DC.

If we are using the strict RAW then only the Blood Angels Honour Guard, Blood Angels Vet Assault squad, and Blood Angels Scout squads even have members that can ever be "Veteran Sergeants." So only those models can ever benefeit from the DC weapon option rules. I'll check the FAQ and make sure they haven't covered this, but they probably haven't.

Just got back from the FAQ, and they (of course) have not addressd the relationship between "marine with termy honours" and "Veteran Marine." So, I guess, we're left to grope around in the dark as usual. Interestingly though, they added a section in the Vet assault squad entry that mimics the other squads in CSM about giving the sergeant Termy honours and whatnot. This is a total disaster as it now leaves us in complete confusion about wether the squad is required to first purchase the "veteran sergeant" at +12 points, then give the sergeant termy honours at +12 points to give him access to the wargear list per the FAQ. They probably meant to apend the section not add to it, but that's not what they put in the FAQ! Awesome! A 52 point assault marine! Sold!

[Edit] CSM has a sentence on page 25, "Sergeants with Terminator Honours are generally refered to as Veteran Sergeants."  I guess we can argue what "generally" means, but that's good enough for me.  Sarge + Termy Honours = Vet Sarge.

Glaive,
I feel your pain. Really i do, I love the solid and consistant writng in the rules.

So this is what it sounds like when doves cry! Only another Blood Angels player can truly understand my pain. The rest of you peasants with your underpowered armies will never know the pain that those of us have to endure with our re-rollable hits in CC, fearless double-save units, and heightened initiative and strength charges! Maybe if we could take a Looted Monolith or something that would make me happy, but until then I will never stop complaining about my jump pack equiped melta-gunners, or 3 attack strength 17 Armour pen (on average) dreadnoughts, and so on.

In a normal Space marine squad, there is no more "verteran Seargant" only a Seargent with terminator honor for 15 pts.

No. Consult p25 of C:SM. "Sergeants with Terminator Honors are generally referred to as Veteran Sergeants"

As far as Terminator squads go, once again the fluff means nothing and Terminators/Terminator Assault squads are listed as being filled by a sergeant and terminators, not veterans, thus they would not be able to pick special weapons from the DC veterans list.

The RAW interpretation depends on your views on Terminators in Terminator armor. If you feel its RAW that Terminators wear Terminator armor, then Terminator Sergeants can take Power Weapons or Power Fists in the Death Company.

P1: Terminators wear Terminator armor.
P2: Models in Terminator armor automatically have Terminator Honors.
P3: Sergeants with Terminator Honors are generally referred to as Veteran Sergeants.
P4: Terminator squads have a Sergeant.
P5: If you roll a 4+ for a squad led by a Veteran Sergeant, he may be the model who joins the Death Company. He may be armed with a power weapon or power fist as noted in the Death Company army list entry.
C: Terminator Sergeants can join the Death Company and take a power weapon or power fist.

Really insaniak and cfoley answered this in the first two posts.

Phryxis,
you forgot a step, in the FAQ, once a model joins the DC he loses all his weapons and wargear. Terminator Honors and terminator Armor is wargear. Once the model loses its wargear it is no longer a Veteran Sergeant. But wait you say how can this happen does he forget he is a verteran? No he does not but like an E-5 in the army who loses a stripe and becomes an E-4 is no longer an NCO, so to a verteran sergeant who loses his terminator honors/armor is no longer a verteran sergeant. Thus, P5 is false, the person joining the DC is not a Veteran SGT because that no longer exsist as something seperate from wargear.
I guess you could narrow this disagreement down to does a person maintain his status as a "veteran Sergeant" once he loses his wargear. I say yes, and you obviously say no...Thus, we wait for GW to clarify the disagreement in a FAQ, until then I would suggest that your gaming group reach a concencious that you feel is acceptable.

Her endeth the YMDC...

Posted By thelosttau on 07/15/2006 7:09 PM
Phryxis,
you forgot a step, in the FAQ, once a model joins the DC he loses all his weapons and wargear. Terminator Honors and terminator Armor is wargear. Once the model loses its wargear it is no longer a Veteran Sergeant. But wait you say how can this happen does he forget he is a verteran? No he does not but like an E-5 in the army who loses a stripe and becomes an E-4 is no longer an NCO, so to a verteran sergeant who loses his terminator honors/armor is no longer a verteran sergeant. Thus, P5 is false, the person joining the DC is not a Veteran SGT because that no longer exsist as something seperate from wargear.
I guess you could narrow this disagreement down to does a person maintain his status as a "veteran Sergeant" once he loses his wargear. I say yes, and you obviously say no...Thus, we wait for GW to clarify the disagreement in a FAQ, until then I would suggest that your gaming group reach a concencious that you feel is acceptable.

Her endeth the YMDC...

I cannot stand this argument. I am sorry but you are all looking at this from the totally wrong angle.

If you read the actual DC entry in the BA codex on page 6 it says "Veteran Sargents who become part of the DC maybe armed with a bolt pistol and either a a power weapon or power fists".

So clearly the question as to whether or not he was a VS to be able to choose a PW or PF choice is BEFORE he loses hes equipement.

I.e It is saying :- If a model was a veteran sargent (or had Terminator Honours) before he joined the DC then he can select a PW or PF.

Look at the wording "who become". It is referring to the some-one being a VS in the past then joining the DC but no longer being a VS (frothing at the mouth will do that). He is allowed to selected a PW or PF because he USED to be a VS, not because he is a VS in the DC.

The new FAQ doesn't impact on this because the right to have a PW/ PF is based on the past exploits of the marine in question ( and no that is not a fluff argument - it is an explanation)

Neither does the whole terminator honours/ wargear stupid argument. The question is, did he have it before he went and raged.

Why are we trying to wrap ourselves in knots?

First of all, I agree with fullheadofhair's refutation of thelosttau's logic. However, even if it was completely logical, I would still find issue with it on the grounds of the game designers' intent.

Bear with me. Let's say thelosttau is logically correct and that Veteran Sergeants lose their Terminator honours (and the VS status that goes along with it) so don't get a power fist/weapon when they join the Death Company. This would mean that the rule about veteran sergeants is completely useless because it could never be applied to the game.

Now, while I will be the first to admit that we can't know the designers' intent, we can be sure that they did mean something. They don't put red herrings in there just to catch us out. If your logic leads to a conclusion that prevents the rule from ever being used then there is something wrong.

Posted By fullheadofhair on 07/15/2006 7:40 PM

Why are we trying to wrap ourselves in knots?

Because this is YMDC... and that's just what is usually done around here.

Its true Insanial and cfoley have answered this but unfortunatly this is the problem with threads like this. they can go on an on just because the codex does not say this or that it meen i can/cannot dod something. ARRRGGGG I think

Phryxis said it best

Why not say "any Carnifexes who are inducted into the DC get free Barbed Stranglers?"

After re-reading the FAQ, and realizing I am an idiot. Time for me to find my DC with powerfists again. It would seem, from the FAQ, that they are saying that yes there are actually Veteran Sergeants still, even though they have not put them in C:SM, so yes the Veteran Sergeant losses his Terminator HOnors, but does get the ability to pick you p a power weapon, or fist.

I am now off to serve in the penal battalion clearing minds on Nibus 4

It would seem, from the FAQ, that they are saying that yes there are actually Veteran Sergeants still

No, they don't say what they are besides Death Company. Their status BEFORE they join the Death Company is what matters. After they join, who knows what they are, or if the other lunatics in the squad even know what rank they are.

In fact, since everyone in the DC has 2A base, one can speculate that they actually ALL have Terminator Honors, at least from a fluff perspective.

the only difference is that some have power weapons and some dont.

It must be quite an experience to go to the death company.

The thing that makes me laugh, is that the Death Company is where Blood Angels go to die, and pretty much every game I play, they go stomping around the field, killing everything in their path, and lose one or two models.

If you want to die in my BA army, join one of the Scout Squads. I stick those poor bastards into just about anything.